Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Whiskeyjack

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Aggressive article on affirmative action in The Economist this week. Would suggest reading it, whether for or against..very interesting</p>— Ben Turk (@Bturk35) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bturk35/status/330395323010789376">May 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Per Turk's advice, I looked it up. It's worth a read.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I'm in the group believing that affirmative action is racist, and somewhat nonsensical.

I believe that this country owes it to the poor to provide additional assistance to make sure academic doors remain open for those who qualify, and thus I think the easy solution is ignoring race and basing it off of socioeconomic standing.

A wealthy Asian kid shouldn't get an additional leg up on a poor white person. This idea was passed largely because minorities in this country were treated poorly (which is basically incorrigible in my book), but the wealthy Asian and Indian immigrants benefit too.

I think the fairest way it to base it off of wealth (in addition to merit, geography, etc). As it turns out, it will still largely be a minority deal, but it's just much fairer.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I also think this is interesting:

Proportion of the US population, by race, compared to the figure in the article showing the makeup of minorities in unergrad:

White: 72.4%
Hispanic: 16.4% (~15%)
Black: 12.6% (~15%)
Asian: 4.8% (~6.5%)

Now, shouldn't the goal, if we want to be fair, show those numbers being as identical as possible, to not show favoritism?
 

phgreek

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I also think this is interesting:

Proportion of the US population, by race, compared to the figure in the article showing the makeup of minorities in unergrad:

White: 72.4%
Hispanic: 16.4% (~15%)
Black: 12.6% (~15%)
Asian: 4.8% (~6.5%)

Now, shouldn't the goal, if we want to be fair, show those numbers being as identical as possible, to not show favoritism?

I'd be happy if a university had 500 slots, and selected the 500 most qualified students based on a Known set of criteria...but, being as we live in the United social engineering states of america...I'll file that away with all the other sh!t I think ought to be.

I think if you are an admissions office...the FIRST cut must be your minimum academic standards...then within each race group, best qualified in the group are first in until the "quota" is full kinda like Buster's distribution...Yes you would still have kids with better credentials that get left out in deference to a kid in an "under represented" group, but it would be limited, and would at least represent the world we live in.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Well in fairness I wouldn't even advocate my distribution, simply pointing out that someone could easily argue that some minorities are in fact over-represented.

I only care for academic, economic, and geographic concerns. In that order too.
 

phgreek

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Well in fairness I wouldn't even advocate my distribution, simply pointing out that someone could easily argue that some minorities are in fact over-represented.

I only care for academic, economic, and geographic concerns. In that order too.

They are indeed overrepresented, and no they shouldn't be.

...I'm actually a big proponent of programs based on geographic/economic considerations. In opposition to the existing affirmative action contracting practices in the federal government, a program was developed to identify Historically underutilized business zones...HUB zones. These zones are defined by census tracts and consider median income for a geographic area, and then give businesses who locate within targeted zones, or utilize people from said targeted zone some preference points when bidding on federal government work...very similar to set aside and preference provisions set aside for minorities....anyway, I love that program because it is far less arbitrary and generates results in a meaningful way (ie it doesn't enrich a guy because he's native american...it enables communities in need of work and opportunity w/in the competitive marketplace.

So, as pertains to schools...hell the georeferenced economic data is already out there via the Hub zone program...why not just use the same data AND the same government organization to define school financial packages ???
 
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Black Irish

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Aggressive article on affirmative action in The Economist this week. Would suggest reading it, whether for or against..very interesting</p>— Ben Turk (@Bturk35) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bturk35/status/330395323010789376">May 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Per Turk's advice, I looked it up. It's worth a read.

I don't expect our current crop of politicians to act on this issue. They'll probably just punt on it.
 

Bluto

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Good article. I found this quote interesting "lower[ing] standards to admit members of preferred groups” is “a bad idea”. Don't universities do that all the time for athletes? Isn't that "affirmative action" using height, speed, strength and possible revenue generation as the metrics? Wonder how the guys at Texas U feel about that?

Anyhow, I agree that class is the real issue in this country. Too bad we can't have a serious discussion about said issue without the inevitable cries of "socialism and communism".

As for affirmative action being "racist", if the core institutions of a society (economy, education system, criminal jusice system, housing and government) were structured to be racist for 200 or so years and based on most studies I have seen (criminal sentencing, educational attainment, socio economic status) continue to function in such a manner as to perpetuate that dynamic, racism has on a very sublime level become institutionalized and imbeded within the very fabric of our society. With that in mind it would seem to me that affirmative action is in fact anti institutionalized racism.
 
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Buster Bluth

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As for affirmative action being "racist", if the core institutions of a society (economy, education system, criminal jusice system, housing and government) were structured to be racist for 200 or so years and based on most studies I have seen (criminal sentencing, educational attainment, socio economic status) continue to fuction in such a manner as to perpetuate that dynamic racism on a very sublime level racism has become institutionalized and is imbeded within the fabric of out society. With that in mind it would seem to me that affirmative action is in fact anti institutionalized racism.

Racism is racism, any way you slice it. I'm of the belief that if we are to be true champions of equality we have to leave race behind altogether. I don't view people by their skin color, I view them on their merit.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Good article. I found this quote interesting "lower[ing] standards to admit members of preferred groups” is “a bad idea”. Don't universities do that all the time for athletes? Isn't that "affirmative action" using height, speed, strength and possible revenue generation as the metrics? Wonder how the guys at Texas U feel about that?

Anyhow, I agree that class is the real issue in this country. Too bad we can't have a serious discussion about said issue without the inevitable cries of "socialism and communism".

As for affirmative action being "racist", if the core institutions of a society (economy, education system, criminal jusice system, housing and government) were structured to be racist for 200 or so years and based on most studies I have seen (criminal sentencing, educational attainment, socio economic status) continue to fuction in such a manner as to perpetuate that dynamic racism on a very sublime level racism has become institutionalized and is imbeded within the fabric of out society. With that in mind it would seem to me that affirmative action is in fact anti institutionalized racism.

OK. Easy enough. On college admission applications just remove sex, race, religion, ethnicity, etc. Judge students based on what they have accomplished in the classroom and what they're capable of.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Judge students based on what they have accomplished in the classroom and what they're capable of.

But for many public schools, there's plenty of room to squeeze marginal people in.

One initiative I have really liked lately is the idea of using "minority" scholarships for people from Appalachia. There are no jobs there, so getting as many people into colleges (and thus dramatically increase the chance they don't return) is a good policy.

Keep in mind, it's often about scholarship money, not just admittance.
 

BobD

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Racism is racism, any way you slice it. I'm of the belief that if we are to be true champions of equality we have to leave race behind altogether. I don't view people by their skin color, I view them on their merit.

I agree 100% with the first two sentences and very much try to live the second two, but to be honest......I catch myself every now and then getting aggravated, usually because of language barriers. I very much want to be able to say I view everyone on merit, right now I can only say I try hard to do it.
 

IrishinSyria

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I'm in the group believing that affirmative action is racist, and somewhat nonsensical.

I believe that this country owes it to the poor to provide additional assistance to make sure academic doors remain open for those who qualify, and thus I think the easy solution is ignoring race and basing it off of socioeconomic standing.

A wealthy Asian kid shouldn't get an additional leg up on a poor white person. This idea was passed largely because minorities in this country were treated poorly (which is basically incorrigible in my book), but the wealthy Asian and Indian immigrants benefit too.

I think the fairest way it to base it off of wealth (in addition to merit, geography, etc). As it turns out, it will still largely be a minority deal, but it's just much fairer.

Asians actually are actually one of the groups most negatively impacted by affirmative action. One study showed that an average Asian needed to score 100-120 points more on the SAT over an average white student to get into an "elite" school (I have no idea what schools were sampled.)

Personally, I think diversity is an important quality for any school to possess, as it adds to the experience for all students at the school. If diversity is an end, it should be up to the schools to choose what means they use to achieve it.
 

phgreek

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I found this quote interesting "lower[ing] standards to admit members of preferred groups” is “a bad idea”. Don't universities do that all the time for athletes? Isn't that "affirmative action" using height, speed, strength and possible revenue generation as the metrics? Wonder how the guys at Texas U feel about that?

...No, and you answered your own question. Two different purposes for "scholarship". One is profit, the other is social engineering...One is on the basis of a desired ability, the other... fate having delivered a person of a certain ethnicity which neither makes them more or less exceptional than anyone else.
 

Bluto

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...No, and you answered your own question. Two different purposes for "scholarship". One is profit, the other is social engineering...One is on the basis of a desired ability, the other... fate having delivered a person of a certain ethnicity which neither makes them more or less exceptional than anyone else.

That's a pretty bad argument. Again the position the guy quoted took was that allowing anyone not academically qualified into the university was a "bad idea". I've read some pretty good arguments that college sports should be done away with for this very reason. Also, isn't allowing academically unqualified individuals who happen to run fast into a university so they can sell tickets social engineering albeit vis a vis some perverted market rationale? Isn't a "desired" life experience and the "ability" to share that with others as much a valid criteria as the ability to dunk a basketball?
 
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pkt77242

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OK. Easy enough. On college admission applications just remove sex, race, religion, ethnicity, etc. Judge students based on what they have accomplished in the classroom and what they're capable of.

Well you had better remove their names as well. If the name shows their heritage it could be used for or against them.
 

pkt77242

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OK. Easy enough. On college admission applications just remove sex, race, religion, ethnicity, etc. Judge students based on what they have accomplished in the classroom and what they're capable of.

Also I think that you are still missing the point of Bluto's arguement. He is saying that we discriminated against them for about 200 years, this isn't a quick easy fix. Is it the countries responsibility to help them gain equal footing? Does society owe them something? Do we need to atone for our past mistakes? What is the length of time that it takes a population to recover from 200 or so years of discrimination?

Also I would point out that discrimination is still an everyday occurence for minorities. AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks
 

Black Irish

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Does anyone know of any studies that have followed a sample of affirmative action college enrollees to see how they have used the opportunity given to them?
 

Bluto

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They are indeed overrepresented, and no they shouldn't be.

...I'm actually a big proponent of programs based on geographic/economic considerations. In opposition to the existing affirmative action contracting practices in the federal government, a program was developed to identify Historically underutilized business zones...HUB zones. These zones are defined by census tracts and consider median income for a geographic area, and then give businesses who locate within targeted zones, or utilize people from said targeted zone some preference points when bidding on federal government work...very similar to set aside and preference provisions set aside for minorities....anyway, I love that program because it is far less arbitrary and generates results in a meaningful way (ie it doesn't enrich a guy because he's native american...it enables communities in need of work and opportunity w/in the competitive marketplace.

So, as pertains to schools...hell the georeferenced economic data is already out there via the Hub zone program...why not just use the same data AND the same government organization to define school financial packages ???

Hub Zone is a good program however, it does not address the issue of historic racial and gender inequity nearly as effectively or directly as the 8(a) program. Trust me, you can't just show up at the SBA say you're a minority and they grant you 8(a) status. Anyhow, both of those programs are great in my opinion.
 
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phgreek

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That's a pretty bad argument. Again the position the guy quoted took was that allowing anyone not academically qualified into the university was a "bad idea". I've read some pretty good arguments that college sports should be done away with for this very reason.

First
In the context of the article...thats not what he said. Mr Graglia thinks “lower[ing] standards to admit members of preferred groups” is “a bad idea”. Its pretty clear the best you can attribute to him is, he doesn't like making any determinations based on race, unless I missed the part where there was an allusion to anything other than race as the basis for this article.

You may take liberty to extend his thoughts for the purposes of a discussion, but I think its wrong to attribute your logical extension to him.

Next

Generally speaking...Comparing the two "preferred groups" you and I are addressing, "athlete" and "minority" simply on the basis of the lower entrance standards each might enjoy is, at a minimum, overly simplistic, and in fact, lower entrance standards is the ONLY similarity these two "groups" share....As well, this comparison exercise between athlete and race feels pretty close to conflating avocation with race ... Yuk.

Put it this way...If Podunk state decided to make athletic scholarships be awarded such that athletes needed to surpass standard academic entrance requirements...would anyone care (outside profit and entertainment considerations)? Because "athlete" is a choice, an avocation. What if Podunk state decided African American students needed to surpass standard academic requirements to be admitted? We'd all cry foul...That should pretty much tell you the utility of the comparison. These things aren't comparable.

isn't allowing academically unqualified individuals who happen to run fast into a university so they can sell tickets social engineering albeit vis a vis some perverted market rationale? Isn't a "desired" life experience and the "ability" to share that with others as much a valid criteria as the ability to dunk a basketball"

I don't think athletic scholarships have anything at all to do with social engineering as I understand it. We don't offer athletes for diversity sake, or any other altruistic purpose...they are what their 40 is, so to speak...and they bring to the campus whatever their race/background is...and being an accomplished athlete is not basis for the presumption of diversity. Having excellence in an avocation like football, and consequently being asked to join a campus community regardless of your ethnicity is anti-social engineering in my book. Athletes are the epitome of a performance only rating....so no altruism, all performance...I can't see that as any form of social engineering.

Whatever value you place on diversity for diversity's sake...for the benefit of life experiences...fine. I think that hand is a bit overplayed though...I would argue a second generation Japanese kid from the south side of Chicago is going to bring something different than a second generation Japanese kid from Cherry Hill, NJ. So where does diversity come from...really? Plug any race or ethnicity into that scenario, and be honest with yourself. I'm not against diversity. I happen to believe if we stepped away from the "programs" the diversity at universities would look like the population...and I for one don't see the problem with that, but I understand others don't see it that way. Thats Cool. Point here was I disagreed with the analogy/comparison you were using....
 

phgreek

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Hub Zone is a good program however, it does not address the issue of historic racial and gender inequity nearly as effectively or directly as the 8(a) program. Trust me, you can't just show up at the SBA say you're a minority and they grant you 8(a) status. Anyhow, both of those programs are great in my opinion.

my experience is this...8(a) awardee gets a contract award. The contract is to take over an in-place work force. Many times a work force built through vicious competition, and after alot of business capture money is spent. 8(a) comes in, rides a couple contracts like that through the term of the program, then either sells the business or goes out of business because they can't compete...yes the Federal government has some good training resources, but they are rarely used. So in the end what we've done is taken a contract from someone who won it through competition, and given it to someone else, AAAND the beneficiaries were likely between 1-3 people whose wealth was significantly enhanced, AAAND we damned well could have ended up with two companies out of business (the original company, and now the 8(a)). Thats just really inefficient wealth redistribution at its finest. In my opinion its a program that doesn't produce much bang for the buck...and thats without touching on the times when 8(a) companies are put in positions they shouldn't be, and screw up things like freaking aircraft software...

I have had a hand in helping various minorities get an 8(a)...back when I thought this was a good idea...it ain't tough either. I've switched over entirely to HUB zone because I believe in its conception, and its benefits...the logistics are way harder, there is still stiff competition, but it grows competitors that survive...to me, the societal benefits are real...
 

Black Irish

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my experience is this...8(a) awardee gets a contract award. The contract is to take over an in-place work force. Many times a work force built through vicious competition, and after alot of business capture money is spent. 8(a) comes in, rides a couple contracts like that through the term of the program, then either sells the business or goes out of business because they can't compete...yes the Federal government has some good training resources, but they are rarely used. So in the end what we've done is taken a contract from someone who won it through competition, and given it to someone else, AAAND the beneficiaries were likely between 1-3 people whose wealth was significantly enhanced, AAAND we damned well could have ended up with two companies out of business (the original company, and now the 8(a)). Thats just really inefficient wealth redistribution at its finest. In my opinion its a program that doesn't produce much bang for the buck...and thats without touching on the times when 8(a) companies are put in positions they shouldn't be, and screw up things like freaking aircraft software...

I have had a hand in helping various minorities get an 8(a)...back when I thought this was a good idea...it ain't tough either. I've switched over entirely to HUB zone because I believe in its conception, and its benefits...the logistics are way harder, there is still stiff competition, but it grows competitors that survive...to me, the societal benefits are real...

The difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish. Solid post.
 

chicago51

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I'm in the group believing that affirmative action is racist, and somewhat nonsensical.

I believe that this country owes it to the poor to provide additional assistance to make sure academic doors remain open for those who qualify, and thus I think the easy solution is ignoring race and basing it off of socioeconomic standing.

A wealthy Asian kid shouldn't get an additional leg up on a poor white person. This idea was passed largely because minorities in this country were treated poorly (which is basically incorrigible in my book), but the wealthy Asian and Indian immigrants benefit too.

I think the fairest way it to base it off of wealth (in addition to merit, geography, etc). As it turns out, it will still largely be a minority deal, but it's just much fairer.

This basically sums up my view.

I think (although I'm not sure because I wasn't around to experience how bad things actually where) affirmative action may have been necessary at one time to jump start things in the right direction but I don't think it is still necessary. Using socioecomic as a measures would still help facilitate upward mobility but would be a bit more fair.

In summary: I am for racial equality not racial entitlement.
 

Bluto

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my experience is this...8(a) awardee gets a contract award. The contract is to take over an in-place work force. Many times a work force built through vicious competition, and after alot of business capture money is spent. 8(a) comes in, rides a couple contracts like that through the term of the program, then either sells the business or goes out of business because they can't compete...yes the Federal government has some good training resources, but they are rarely used. So in the end what we've done is taken a contract from someone who won it through competition, and given it to someone else, AAAND the beneficiaries were likely between 1-3 people whose wealth was significantly enhanced, AAAND we damned well could have ended up with two companies out of business (the original company, and now the 8(a)). Thats just really inefficient wealth redistribution at its finest. In my opinion its a program that doesn't produce much bang for the buck...and thats without touching on the times when 8(a) companies are put in positions they shouldn't be, and screw up things like freaking aircraft software...

I have had a hand in helping various minorities get an 8(a)...back when I thought this was a good idea...it ain't tough either. I've switched over entirely to HUB zone because I believe in its conception, and its benefits...the logistics are way harder, there is still stiff competition, but it grows competitors that survive...to me, the societal benefits are real...

I've seen that dynamic as well and the simple response is that the application process has become much more difficult over the past couple years as a result and to address these issues. The days of people placing the business in say the wife's name are long gone.

Checkout this company. Dude definitely knows how to "fish".
Yerba Buena :: Home
 
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phgreek

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Also I think that you are still missing the point of Bluto's arguement. He is saying that we discriminated against them for about 200 years, this isn't a quick easy fix. Is it the countries responsibility to help them gain equal footing? Does society owe them something? Do we need to atone for our past mistakes? What is the length of time that it takes a population to recover from 200 or so years of discrimination?

Most of the more recent stuff I've read talks in terms of diversity as its own benefit (diversity mentality), and not in terms of fixing historical wrongs (reparation mentality)...some even explain that the idea of reparations fails to move the majority of people as justification for race based quotas. Look at the world of 18-30 y/o people. Their frame of reference makes it a pretty tough sell to get them vested in the reparation mentality...and it will get harder with each passing generation.

BTW...is the slipping support for the reparations mentality the reason Chris Mathews contracted race-based turrets syndrome...I've determined he seriously can't help it, but maybe he thinks thats how you "wake up" those who can't relate to the cause any longer...???


Also I would point out that discrimination is still an everyday occurence for minorities. AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks

I can't speak to the poll because I couldn't see the questions or the actual data (if it was available I missed it)...I'd be curious, on a percentage basis, how many minorities actually harbor bias toward white folks...AAAND other minorities... Anyway, its clear the outcome this poll seemed to try to allude to (Obama losing) ...wasn't all that close. WE do have some real data though...actual voting numbers from last election chopped up by race...93 percent of African-Americans voted for Obama this year, as well as 73 percent of Asian-Americans and 71 percent of Latinos, AAAND 41% white. Clearly there are numerous variables in play, however...
 

phgreek

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I've seen that dynamic as well and the simple response is that the application process has become much more difficult over the past couple years as a result and to address these issues. The days of people placing the business in say the wife's name are long gone.

Checkout this company. Dude definitely knows how to "fish".
Yerba Buena :: Home

agreed...no more wife's name crap...in fact you need to prove some sort of institutional prejudice, and you need to produce affidavits from co-workers from a prior professional position to even get woman-owned 8(a) these days....well unless you are really connected.

Its not worse, for sure but I think there are arenas where 8(a) performs better...Environmental remediation...never had a bad deal there. Construction...had some issues honoring warranties when some roofs went south, but the work seemed to be pretty good otherwise. Software...Ahhhhhh, stick a pen in my eye. Network support, meh, mostly ok. Not real good at investment in employee development...always seem to ask for more $$$ to do it. Product R&D, Design, Development, Low-rate initial production...dismal.

Your guy looks the part by the way...only looked at a few pages, but professional, and the past performance page shows some diverse and reasonably complex sh!t...and he/she did them...and didn't sit in the ivory tower, so to speak. I'll send love to anyone who gets their hands dirty...
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Most Haunting Photograph from Bangladesh

The Most Haunting Photograph from Bangladesh

A Final Embrace:

03_img_02891.jpg


Such are the costs of global capitalism.
 

GoIrish41

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A Final Embrace:

03_img_02891.jpg


Such are the costs of global capitalism.

You mean unregulated capitalism?

A huge crack developed in the building the day before and workers inside thought there had been an earthquake. The next day the workers were told the building was safe and to get back to work. Problem here seemed to be that nobody was keeping tabs on the working conditions/safety conditions of employees -- nobody who cared more about profits than people, anyway.

That is a profoundly disturbing and sad photograph.
 

Whiskeyjack

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You mean unregulated capitalism?

No, I meant global capitalism. The problems it creates can't be solved simply by crying "moar regulation!"

Before someones goes all Joe McCarthy on me, I'm not anti-capitalist. As Churchill might say, it's the worst system of distribution, except for all those others that have been tried. But we still need to be honest about the human costs it entails.

Problem here seemed to be that nobody was keeping tabs on the working conditions/safety conditions of employees -- nobody who cared more about profits than people, anyway.

Clothing manufacturers relocate to Bangladesh precisely because of its lack of regulation and cheap labor.
 

potownhero

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No, I meant global capitalism. The problems it creates can't be solved simply by crying "moar regulation!"

Before someones goes all Joe McCarthy on me, I'm not anti-capitalist. As Churchill might say, it's the worst system of distribution, except for all those others that have been tried. But we still need to be honest about the human costs it entails.



Clothing manufacturers relocate to Bangladesh precisely because of its lack of regulation and cheap labor.

Appreciate your rational perspective; often on these boards that goes out the window.

That said, I agree with you that there are costs to everything...and I think by your Churchillian comment, that you'd agree that capitalism has saved and improved more lives than it has made worse or destroyed...
 
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