Police State USA

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
We each have our experiences and insights. Reforms and Consent Decrees based on comprehensive reviews highlight systemic problems. You can read them if you like. If PDs would kick the "bad apples" out, that would be a step forward. There's a Blue Wall that resists oversight and changes, though progress is achieved when a US Attorney and the DOJ step in. Don't most if not all major PDs have psych testing before hiring and after shootings? If defunding means cutting budgets and reallocating them to appropriate services, I'm for that. If internal and external oversight just don't work as in many of them and discipline is a joke, enforcement is up to more than a local Oversight Board whose hands are tied. Qualified immunity needs to change from whatever an individual cop thinks deadly force is justified. Review the past discipline records of those on the force using the same criteria that has led to prosecution of the "bad apples" and prosecute them, if need be, to get them off the force. Community perceptions would change though that may take longer in minority communities. I guess you have not read what I have posted to make a statement that I think all PDs are bad. Nature of a social media site I guess. Happy to clarify. The use of militia groups regarded as "friendlies" and outright attacks on journalists is concerning in addition to the Blue Walls. They can Sick Out if they want. Communities can always ask if they are there to "Protect and Serve".

Just because current oversight rules/committees/processes aren't working today doesn't mean they can't. It's how they are administered that's the problem. Take reviews out of the hands of law enforcement. The committee can be made up of local citizens with someone representing the police and a lawyer to ensure everything is legal. Most department have some sort of psych testing, but as I've mentioned before, it needs to be better and more thorough testing.

It's like driving a car, neglecting it and complaining that it's a POS. Change the oil regularly, take action when that warning light comes on and you might find it performs a lot better.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Just because current oversight rules/committees/processes aren't working today doesn't mean they can't. It's how they are administered that's the problem. Take reviews out of the hands of law enforcement. The committee can be made up of local citizens with someone representing the police and a lawyer to ensure everything is legal. Most department have some sort of psych testing, but as I've mentioned before, it needs to be better and more thorough testing.

It's like driving a car, neglecting it and complaining that it's a POS. Change the oil regularly, take action when that warning light comes on and you might find it performs a lot better.

Those Oversight Commissions do not have any teeth for enforcement. That is one of the administrative changes sought cities. To have the authority to fire "bad apples". People resign those Boards because they are toothless. I am totally fine with Oversight Boards that have the authority to fire them. Then there are the incidents where the body cam "was not working" or they "forgot to turn it on". Leaves without pay for consistent disregard for policy and egregious violations of use of force. The Trump Admin has made federal oversight through Consent Decrees almost impossible. I'd also tie individual raises to negative performance, i.e. disciplinary actions. The alternatives are firings by mayors or DAs, charges, bringing it before a Grand Jury.

The King County Labor Group, which is the umbrella group of more than 150 unions and 100,00 workers in the Seattle metro area has voted to expel the Police union since that guild has "failed to address racism within its ranks".
 
Last edited:

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
Those Oversight Commissions do not have any teeth for enforcement. That is one of the administrative changes sought cities. To have the authority to fire "bad apples". People resign those Boards because they are toothless. I am totally fine with Oversight Boards that have the authority to fire them. Then there are the incidents where the body cam "was not working" or they "forgot to turn it on". Leaves without pay for consistent disregard for policy and egregious violations of use of force. The Trump Admin has made federal oversight through Consent Decrees almost impossible. I'd also tie individual raises to negative performance, i.e. disciplinary actions. The alternatives are firings by mayors or DAs, charges, bringing it before a Grand Jury.

The King County Labor Group, which is the umbrella group of more than 150 unions and 100,00 workers in the Seattle metro area has voted to expel the Police union since that guild has "failed to address racism within its ranks".

You're really trying to nitpick and missing the point. You implement the changes so the committees have the power to decide and enforce the decision including termination and/or recommending charges be filed.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
Those Oversight Commissions do not have any teeth for enforcement. That is one of the administrative changes sought cities. To have the authority to fire "bad apples". People resign those Boards because they are toothless. I am totally fine with Oversight Boards that have the authority to fire them. Then there are the incidents where the body cam "was not working" or they "forgot to turn it on". Leaves without pay for consistent disregard for policy and egregious violations of use of force. The Trump Admin has made federal oversight through Consent Decrees almost impossible. I'd also tie individual raises to negative performance, i.e. disciplinary actions. The alternatives are firings by mayors or DAs, charges, bringing it before a Grand Jury.

The King County Labor Group, which is the umbrella group of more than 150 unions and 100,00 workers in the Seattle metro area has voted to expel the Police union since that guild has "failed to address racism within its ranks".

I think video camera's are the ultimate answer.

I believe every LEO has to be mic'd up with a working video camera to engage in any police activity. If they aren't and there is a complaint against them then they are guilty of whatever complaint is made against them. The excuse that the video camera wasn't working has to be 100% a non defense an LEO can use. It is their responsibility to know it is working before engaging. Sort of like a black box recorder for all flights.

If there is a false complaint made against the LEO, the person who made the false complaint has to be charged criminally. LEO's are not the enemy...their rights need society's full protection.

Taking away as much ambiguity as possible is the best way forward. Exposure will drastically reduce ambiguity.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
I think video camera's are the ultimate answer.

I believe every LEO has to be mic'd up with a working video camera to engage in any police activity. If they aren't and there is a complaint against them then they are guilty of whatever complaint is made against them. The excuse that the video camera wasn't working has to be 100% a non defense an LEO can use. It is their responsibility to know it is working before engaging. Sort of like a black box recorder for all flights.

If there is a false complaint made against the LEO, the person who made the false complaint has to be charged criminally. LEO's are not the enemy...their rights need society's full protection.

Taking away as much ambiguity as possible is the best way forward. Exposure will drastically reduce ambiguity.

Agree. Those cameras can be programmed to be on all the time. If it isn't working during an incident there should be appropriate action taken.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
Does anyone remember the Dirty Harry Movies. Clint Eastwood's character was in a running gun battle on the highway with the baddies and was so annoyed that the higher ups wanted it stopped.

Dirty Harry was completely okay with the collateral damage a running gun fight can have as long as it didn't interfere with him catching the baddies. Times have certainly changed....for the better.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,954
Reaction score
11,239
Does anyone remember the Dirty Harry Movies. Clint Eastwood's character was in a running gun battle on the highway with the baddies and was so annoyed that the higher ups wanted it stopped.

Dirty Harry was completely okay with the collateral damage a running gun fight can have as long as it didn't interfere with him catching the baddies. Times have certainly changed....for the better.

Dirty Harry is a movie bud,... hate yo break it to you. Even today in the Bad Boys movies Will Smith is collateral damaging the hell out of everything to catch the bad guy.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
Dirty Harry is a movie bud,... hate yo break it to you. Even today in the Bad Boys movies Will Smith is collateral damaging the hell out of everything to catch the bad guy.

What? What do you mean it was a movie...where you getting your information from?

I watched Fast and the Furious8 last night on Netflix....now that is collateral damage.

But back to reality for a sec....it was the 1970's when collateral damage became a real thing. Car chases and such were no longer an acceptable thing, like drink and driving and wearing no seatbelts
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
What? What do you mean it was a movie...where you getting your information from?

I watched Fast and the Furious8 last night on Netflix....now that is collateral damage.

But back to reality for a sec....it was the 1970's when collateral damage became a real thing. Car chases and such were no longer an acceptable thing, like drink and driving and wearing no seatbelts

I long for the days when we lived on the edge.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
Those Oversight Commissions do not have any teeth for enforcement. That is one of the administrative changes sought cities. To have the authority to fire "bad apples". People resign those Boards because they are toothless. I am totally fine with Oversight Boards that have the authority to fire them. Then there are the incidents where the body cam "was not working" or they "forgot to turn it on". Leaves without pay for consistent disregard for policy and egregious violations of use of force. The Trump Admin has made federal oversight through Consent Decrees almost impossible. I'd also tie individual raises to negative performance, i.e. disciplinary actions. The alternatives are firings by mayors or DAs, charges, bringing it before a Grand Jury.

The King County Labor Group, which is the umbrella group of more than 150 unions and 100,00 workers in the Seattle metro area has voted to expel the Police union since that guild has "failed to address racism within its ranks".

You're really trying to nitpick and missing the point. You implement the changes so the committees have the power to decide and enforce the decision including termination and/or recommending charges be filed.

From an article on CNN

The Quinnipiac poll found a similar number in support for banning the use of chokeholds. A majority (54%) oppose cutting some funding from police departments in their community and moving it to social services compared to 41% who support shifting resources.
 

Circa

Conspire to keep It real
Messages
8,000
Reaction score
818
What? What do you mean it was a movie...where you getting your information from?

I watched Fast and the Furious8 last night on Netflix....now that is collateral damage.

But back to reality for a sec....it was the 1970's when collateral damage became a real thing. Car chases and such were no longer an acceptable thing, like drink and driving and wearing no seatbelts


I'm not following what your writing? Seat belts in the 70's? Car chases? The 70's Is something you might want to read more about.

Why should I have to wear a seatbelt today? It's my life. Of course anyone whom rides with me should have the right to choose one way or another... But, Seatbelts are 1 of the first unalienable rights that got taken away and got us where we are today. Simple but true.
Then they say I can't smoke an herb that grows naturally... Yet I can smoke nicotine/chemicals.

WE ARE DOOMED! Thanks to all of the people who thought control was the way. BULLYING adults/politicians created our demise.
 
Last edited:

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
[/B]

I'm not following what your writing? Seat belts in the 70's? Car chases? The 70's Is something you might want to read more about.

Why should I have to wear a seatbelt today? It's my life. Of course anyone whom rides with me should have the right to choose one way or another... But, Seatbelts are 1 of the first unalienable rights that got taken away and got us where we are today. Simple but true.
Then they say I can't smoke an herb that grows naturally... Yet I can smoke nicotine/chemicals.

WE ARE DOOMED! Thanks to all of the people who thought control was the way. BULLYING adults/politicians created our demise.

Lol
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
The poll should have asked "Are you in favor of cutting police budgets or raising your taxes?' With cities and states looking at huge losses of revenue, they started responsibly looking at how much and where earlier than George Floyd's death (May 25). The same sorts of cuts happened when in 2009 due to the recession.

Baltimore police union told there could be pay cuts, layoffs because of COVID-19 budget shortfall
Sgt. Mike Mancuso said the police department is being asked to make cuts that are too much for the strained department to handle amid apandemic
(PoliceOne.com Apr 11, 2020)

Two Los Angeles County Sheriff's Stations to Close Due to Coronavirus Cuts
Los Angeles County sheriff’s stations in Altadena and Marina Del Rey will close this year because of steep budget cuts, some prompted by the coronavirus that is ravaging sales-tax revenue.

(Daily News, May 5th, 2020)

The police budget for Chicago annually amounts to 40% of the city budget. Of course, this has become political due to communities feeling their is a lack of accountability, excessive use of force, etc while they look at police per capita spending in comparison to other departments with cities of similar size. You can't look to balance your budget without cutting the biggest part of your budget.

Overtime, benefits and hiring are typical areas that they cut police budgets. NYC will lose $27 million just due to events canceled due to coronavirus. From the Baltimore article, the city expected to be looking at a $42 million shortfall.

The response from the police union is worth noting:
“I am furious and disgusted with the Mayor and his administration for asking our members to shoulder the burden of this crisis both physically, and now financially," (Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 3 President Sgt. Mike) Mancuso wrote in the two-page letter sent out to the department’s 2,500 members.

Mancuso also called it “deceitful and insulting.”

“Now we are being asked to sacrifice even more while we continue to put on our uniforms and place ourselves on the front lines of this pandemic for the citizens of Baltimore,” he said.

Weeks prior to the June 17th announcement of NYPD budget cuts the Council called for a 7 percent cut to the NYPD. That's almost doubled since. The Council members came up with a list of $1 billion in cuts to the nearly $6 billion agency budget.

In Baltimore, three options were presented to their PD:

According to the FOP letter, the first option to reduce spending would freeze all salaries and prevent officers from receiving raises, including an across-the-board 3% raise officers were set to be paid in July.

Another option would require officers to take up to six furlough days depending on their salary. However, Mancuso said, officers would still be required to work those days and forgo pay because sworn officers are deemed “essential employees."

A third option would require the already understaffed department to lay off 173 non-essential employees, which he said could include officers assigned to the mounted, marine and traffic units.

“I personally don’t want to see layoffs, but if the budget dictates that, we have no other choice unless our president sends us some relief,”
Mayor Bernard "Jack" Young said, repeating his call for more federal funding to be directed toward cities like Baltimore.

Budget cuts, raise taxes, decrease funding for other activities under the PD budget or more federal funding? The police departments unions are "infuriated". In addition since, if their conduct is questioned, officers prosecuted or they have to make cuts.
 
Last edited:

irishff1014

Well-known member
Messages
26,514
Reaction score
9,289
The poll should have asked "Are you in favor of cutting police budgets or raising your taxes?' With cities and states looking at huge losses of revenue, they started responsibly looking at how much and where earlier than George Floyd's death (May 25). The same sorts of cuts happened when in 2009 due to the recession.

Baltimore police union told there could be pay cuts, layoffs because of COVID-19 budget shortfall
Sgt. Mike Mancuso said the police department is being asked to make cuts that are too much for the strained department to handle amid apandemic
(PoliceOne.com Apr 11, 2020)

Two Los Angeles County Sheriff's Stations to Close Due to Coronavirus Cuts
Los Angeles County sheriff’s stations in Altadena and Marina Del Rey will close this year because of steep budget cuts, some prompted by the coronavirus that is ravaging sales-tax revenue.

(Daily News, May 5th, 2020)

The police budget for Chicago annually amounts to 40% of the city budget. Of course, this has become political due to communities feeling their is a lack of accountability, excessive use of force, etc while they look at police per capita spending in comparison to other departments with cities of similar size. You can't look to balance your budget without cutting the biggest part of your budget.

Overtime, benefits and hiring are typical areas that they cut police budgets. NYC will lose $27 million just due to events canceled due to coronavirus. From the Baltimore article, the city expected to be looking at a $42 million shortfall.

The response from the police union is worth noting:


Mancuso also called it “deceitful and insulting.”



Weeks prior to the June 17th announcement of NYPD budget cuts the Council called for a 7 percent cut to the NYPD. That's almost doubled since. The Council members came up with a list of $1 billion in cuts to the nearly $6 billion agency budget.

In Baltimore, three options were presented to their PD:



Mayor Bernard "Jack" Young said, repeating his call for more federal funding to be directed toward cities like Baltimore.

Budget cuts, raise taxes, decrease funding for other activities under the PD budget or more federal funding? The police departments unions are "infuriated". In addition since, if their conduct is questioned, officers prosecuted or they have to make cuts.


They had a mother and 3yr old killed this morning in a shooting.

And they are doing away with the Marine unit in the harbor that has saved lives from people drowning during special events.

These cities never change.
 

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,159
Reaction score
3,991
It seems virtually impossible to have a nuanced conversation about this topic. There are a lot of emotionally charged responses on both sides. George Floyd was such a catalyst because virtually everyone agrees that the casual disregard for his life... over something as trivial as an alleged counterfeit $20 bill... was appalling. They knew they were being filmed murdering someone and it didn't phase them in the slightest. They did not care if he lived or died.

Most policing situations are not as clear cut. But I started this thread years ago because it was becoming increasingly inarguable... mainly thanks to the proliferation of cell phone cameras, dash cams, and body cams... that there are MASSIVE issues with policing in this country relative to virtually all other advanced western countries. This doesn't just affect Black citizens, but they certainly have the longest and most tragic history of being adversely affected by cops.

I thought Chappelle's monologue really hit at the core of why we're seeing such a powerful response to George Floyd that is also expanding outward to other policing issues:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3tR6mKcBbT4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There needs to be change, period. What that looks like can be debated. I'd like to see accountability when cops make mistakes or commit crimes. Independent investigation and oversight. Police departments and unions that protect bad cops dismantled or held liable in civil court. And many other things.

If you're focusing on ANTIFA... where everyone who isn't a far leftist shill agrees that they're, at minimum, bad actors and at worst domestic terrorists... instead of why this all started, then I think we're losing the big picture. If we focus on statues and names and culture questions... again, I think we're losing sight of police reform being why the vast majority of people took to that. Everyone should be coming together to ask themselves "why are American cops so violent, why do they have so little accountability, why do they target the communities they do, and what can we do about it?" Instead, we already have a lot of apologia about cops and their "difficult" job and I'm skeptical we will get the real reform we need.

That Dave Chapelle bit nearly brought me tears. Thanks for posting it and for the thoughtful and insightful post in general. Cheers.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
So if I wanted to make a counterargument against this it would that places like Switzerland have gun ownership rates at ~28% and the United States has 30% (43% household rate), and they don't have people (armed or unarmed) getting shot at the rate cops do in the United States. Vermont has gun ownership rates that exceed most places with the highest police shooting rates. You're probably right that cops are militarized and react how they do in part because of the amount of armed citizens they encounter, but there have to be other contributing factors or we'd see more proportional police killing rates city-to-city domestically and when contrasted to similar countries.

For example in Finland, which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in Europe, they had seven total people killed by police between 2000-2018. Cops in the United States killed over a thousand people in 2019 alone.

There are a lot of nuances to the topic, but you can look at some basic things like homicide rate and demographics. In Finland for example, their homicide rate is 1.63, compared to the US which is 4.96, or about a third. Finland also has one of the most homogeneous populations, with only around 3% foreign born. The population density is about 42 (the US is 87), but an overwhelming majority (86%) live in urban areas which is even higher than the US (83%).

Switzerland's homicide rate is 0.59 or 13% of the US. While Switzerland has a higher rate of foreign born, it's predominately from other Euros. The pop density is much much higher at 539, and has similar urban numbers (85%).

Both police forces (Switz and Fin) carry firearms. Compared to the UK who does not, the homicide rate is 1.2 which is twice that of Switzerland and a little under of Finland. And both Finland and Switzerland, while carrying firearms, have almost zero killings by LEOs.

IDK. I think the question is simply why are Americans more violent? We definitely have a need for police reform without a doubt, but we obviously have an "input" (civilian behavior) problem too. It's a conversation too easily avoided.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
So the dude in Cali that killed a federal employee at the Oakland protests and cop near Santa Cruz was a right wing nut job.

I posted info on the Boogaloo movement a few weeks ago from an expert and tracker of right wing groups (and yes, she's a liberal). They're a whackjob group prepping for the end of society with a disdain for police (their leader was killed while unarmed). Are they really right wing if they are standing arm and arm with left wing groups, and preparing for something left wing anarchist groups like Antifa are trying to instigate? I posted pics of them together with BLM supporting the same cause. Per the expert, they are not homogeneous with their like or dislike of Trump or the conservative party. The only thing "right wing" about them is 2A.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
Apologies to those who are aware of the incidents from coast to coast. Minneapolis, Louisville, Atlanta, Las Vegas, Denver, LA, DC, Seattle, and more. Journalists say the deliberate attacks and detentions on those who clearly identify themselves as journalists is an attack on the 1st Amendment.

As Protests Continue Nationwide, Some Say Police Are Hurting Journalists
June 3, 20205:03 AM ET (NPR, includes lists of cities and injuries with arrests)

Watchdogs say assaults on journalists covering protests are "on a scale we've never seen before" (Time, June 4)

Portland journalists ‘should not be targeted’ by cops during protests, mayor and police chief say
Updated Jun 17, 2020; Posted Jun 17, 2020 (Oregon Live)

Police attacks on journalists are attacks on us all (Seattle Times reprint of Miami Herald Editorial)
June 16, 2020 at 2:34 am Updated June 16, 2020 at 4:19 pm

Honest question. Where these journalist also actively taking part of the protests? The articles refer to vids, however did not post them. I did see the news crew that were off to the side that were pepper balled by Louisville police which is totally unacceptable. Those officers need to fired and charged. At the same time, I've seen vids of "journalists" who were "participating" as much or more than they were reporting. I've also seen journalists that simply refused orders of the police to vacate an area that they were trying to lock down. I certainly don't want to see any journalists harmed or targeted, but they also need to understand that they are there to report, not participate, and are obligated to follow police instruction. If they don't, they become part of the masses the officers are charged with dispersing.

Also, did these same news providers (or the press freedom group) report on conservative journalists being attacked by protesters. There were several instances. And how much time did they spend when the one journalist who got his cranium cracked by Antifa?
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
I see you're having a regular one.

I made the comment that the priests aren't standing along side the bad ones and rightfully making sure that bad priests are rooted out. Could not be clearer.

For a very long time, the Church has hid, and covered up the behavior, so not sure you can say they are making sure the bad ones are rooted out. Recently, the tide seems to be turning, but the coverups themselves are as much blemish as the actual crime.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
You're really trying to nitpick and missing the point. You implement the changes so the committees have the power to decide and enforce the decision including termination and/or recommending charges be filed.

Again, the committees do not have the power of termination or to file charges. I posted links to the Summary of the investigations that resulted in each of the seventeen Consent Decrees between Cities and the DOJ after U.S. Attorneys investigation.

How about an example. Chicago.
The murder of Laquan McDonald took place on October 20, 2014, in Chicago, Illinois, when the 17-year-old African American was fatally shot by Chicago Police Officer Jason Van Dyke. A court case was filed to release the video of the murder which was released a year later (Nov 2015). He was walking away and shot in the back six seconds after Van Dyke exited his car. In total, Van Dyke fired 16 shots at McDonald in 14–15 seconds, expending the maximum capacity of his 9 mm semi-automatic firearm. The first shot hit McDonald, who spun and fell to the ground. As McDonald lay on the ground, still holding a knife that was folded, Van Dyke fired more shots into him. Police portrayals of the incident prompted police supervisors to rule the case a justifiable homicide and within the bounds of the department's use of force guidelines.[

The day the video was released, Officer Van Dyke was charged with first-degree murder and initially held without bail at the Cook County Jail. The investigation report in January 2017, describing the police as having a culture of "excessive violence," especially against minority suspects, and of having poor training and supervision. Van Dyke was a 14-year veteran of the Chicago Police Department.

Since 2001, some 20 citizen complaints have been filed against Officer Van Dyke, but none resulted in disciplinary action. Ten of the complaints allege he used excessive force, and two involve the use of a firearm. According to CNN, "the Chicago Police Department has about 12,000 officers.

Charges were filed. On October 5, 2018, Van Dyke was found guilty of second degree murder and 16 counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, but was found not guilty of official misconduct. Van Dyke emptied his On January 18, 2019, Van Dyke was sentenced to 6.75 years in prison for the second-degree murder conviction alone.

Eight police cars responded to the complaint. Only three videos from dash-cams could be obtained and all were without audio, which automatically kicks in. A nearby video from a Burger King was taken with passwords by police, which had gaps in it.

Like Van Dyke, 402 officers have 20 or more complaints on file in the database. The most complaints against any officer, according to the database, is 68. The database shows that of the 20 complaints against Van Dyke none resulted in discipline. Five complaints in the database were "not sustained," five were unfounded, four resulted in exoneration, five had unknown outcomes and one resulted in no action taken."

The investigation by DOJ and the US and State Attorneys found a pattern of unlawful force we found resulted from a collection of poor police practices that our investigation indicated are used routinely within CPD. We found that officers engage in
tactically unsound and unnecessary foot pursuits, and that these foot pursuits too often end with officers unreasonably shooting someone—including unarmed individuals.

Among the most egregious uses of deadly force we reviewed were incidents in which
CPD officers shot at suspects who presented no immediate threat. CPD’s use of less-lethal force also contributes to the pattern of unlawful conduct we found. CPD does not investigate or review these force incidents to determine whether its responses to these events were appropriate or lawful, or whether force could have been avoided.
The City is currently taking steps to improve its response to persons in mental health or
behavioral crisis, in part in response to the tragic shootings deaths of Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie Jones.

The City received over 30,000 complaints of police misconduct during the five years
preceding our investigation, but fewer than 2% were sustained, resulting in no discipline in 98% of these complaints.

The investigation found that deficiencies in officer training are exacerbated by the lack of adequatesupervision CPD provides to officers in the field, which further contributes to CPD’s pattern or practice of unconstitutional policing. CPD does not sufficiently encourage or facilitate supervisors to provide meaningful supervision to officers. Overall, CPD does not hold supervisors accountable for performing certain basic supervisory tasks, including guiding officer behavior or reporting misconduct.

CPD’s pattern or practice of unreasonable force and systemic deficiencies fall heaviest on the predominantly black and Latino neighborhoods on the South and West Sides of Chicago, which are also experiencing higher crime. Raw statistics show that CPD uses force almost ten times more often against blacks than against whites. As a result, residents in black neighborhoods suffer more of the harms caused by breakdowns in uses of force, training, supervision, accountability, and community policing.

The pattern or practice of unreasonable force, coupled with the recurrence of unaddressed
racially discriminatory conduct by officers further erodes community trust and police
effectiveness. Our review of complaints of racially discriminatory language found repeated
instances where credible complaints were not adequately addressed. Moreover, we found that
some Chicago police officers expressed discriminatory views and intolerance with regard to race,
religion, gender, and national origin in public social media forums, and that CPD takes
insufficient steps to prevent or appropriately respond to this animus.

Activist yesterday gathered outside Chicago City Hall to advocate for an Ovesight board that will have the power to investigate and fire police officers - the bad apples.

More:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/925846/download
 
Last edited:

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
We each have our experiences and insights. Reforms and Consent Decrees based on comprehensive reviews highlight systemic problems. You can read them if you like. If PDs would kick the "bad apples" out, that would be a step forward. There's a Blue Wall that resists oversight and changes, though progress is achieved when a US Attorney and the DOJ step in. Don't most if not all major PDs have psych testing before hiring and after shootings? If defunding means cutting budgets and reallocating them to appropriate services, I'm for that. If internal and external oversight just don't work as in many of them and discipline is a joke, enforcement is up to more than a local Oversight Board whose hands are tied. Qualified immunity needs to change from whatever an individual cop thinks deadly force is justified. Review the past discipline records of those on the force using the same criteria that has led to prosecution of the "bad apples" and prosecute them, if need be, to get them off the force. Community perceptions would change though that may take longer in minority communities. I guess you have not read what I have posted to make a statement that I think all PDs are bad. Nature of a social media site I guess. Happy to clarify. The use of militia groups regarded as "friendlies" and outright attacks on journalists is concerning in addition to the Blue Walls. They can Sick Out if they want. Communities can always ask if they are there to "Protect and Serve".

Limited to fact and data discourse...

So your problems with PDs per above, are:

1. Inability or unwillingness to kick bad apples out
2. Blue Wall that resists change and oversight
3. Oversight boards have their hands tied
4. Qulaified immunity

How does defunding change any of that? Those are specific things that need to be addressed, and none are made better by defunding. It seems like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

PDs are subject to local government, and the chiefs are appointed by local Mayors. Sheriffs are elected but many are non partison or flow the way of local politics and endorsements. So shouldn't PD failures be seen as a product of local government failure, and in Sheriffs cases, the people that voted for them?

So looking at open and recently closed consent decrees (I'm sure I missed some, feel free to add), the overwhelming majority have been under long term Dem rule. I've listed what I could find farther below.

So why is it that governments who have been overwhelmingly Dem for so long, not been able to solve the issues. And why do these issues persist in overwhelmingly Dem areas?

Let's look at LA. The LA law enforcement union (LAPPL) has spent millions influencing local politicians. Within the LA City council (14 Dems, 1 IND) for example, 11 of 15 have received donations from LAPPL. During recent elections, the LA union contributed over 75% of the $2.2 million raised by incumbent Dem District Attorney Jackie Lacey. I don't think we need to wonder why it's hard to kick the bad apples out, when the majority of the City Council, and the DA are all taking money from the Union. Is this a bad cop thing, or a bad union and bad government thing? How does defunding help this issue?

As far consent decrees, I don't have a problem with them per se, but they're a last resort, and would not be required if local government did their jobs. Also, some say there's typically a rise in crime for those cities that are impacted by decrees. ABC affiliate in Albuquerque had this to say.

More than four years later, Target 7 has found that nearly all of the cities that reached settlement agreements or consent decrees with the DOJ during the same time as Albuquerque have seen double-digit increases in violent crime - crimes like murders, rapes and robberies. Cops are also leaving the departments.

“No, I am not shocked,” said Shaun Willoughby, president of the Albuquerque Police Officers’ Association. “Wherever the DOJ goes, crime goes up.”

The analysis conducted by Target 7 looked at cities that reached consent decrees since 2010 and had reported their crime statistics to the FBI. Target 7 compared each city’s violent crime rate two years before the city started its consent decree and two years after.

The analysis found that every city with a population higher than 50,000 people experienced a double-digit increase in violent crime. Albuquerque had a 36 percent increase in that time. Other cities included Seattle, 27 percent; Los Angeles, 61 percent; Cleveland, 13 percent; Phoenix, 10 percent; and 20 percent in New Orleans.
https://www.koat.com/article/violent-crime-skyrockets-in-cities-with-doj-consent-decrees/26347086

So, you're good with defunding the police (which has historically equated to a rise in violent crime), but you're OK with Dem govs and politicians who have failed to reform the PDs over years and years, and OK with the donations and lobby efforts by unions to those same politicians?

Why aren't MSM, libs, and protesters calling for LAs City Council and DA to be kicked to the curb? The City of Chicago just missed 70% of their consent decree deadlines. Why are folks not calling for their Dem Mayor and Police Chief to be kicked to the curb?

The above is all fact and data, so I'd appreciate a response.

My answer. Federal guidelines of policy and training for consistency. Standardized reporting of stats to the federal level. Body and car cams for everyone. No lobby donations from unions. Remove immunity in those cases where policy/training was not followed. If local govs aren't willing to create civilian review boards with teeth, use a fed review board. In short, the problems seem more like typical gov status quo/swamp issues as much as bad apples.

Consent decrees
LA PD - Dem the last 20 years, and 51 of last 59.
LA Sheriff - elected, current is Dem
Chicago PD - Dem the last 90 years
New Orleans PD - Dem the last 148 years
Seattle PD - Dem the last 30 years
Detroit PD - Dem the last 58 years
East Haven (NY) PD - Mixed rotation, now Dem
Warren (OH) PD - Dem for at least last 9 years
Albuquerque PD - Dem, and for 27 of the last 35 years
Cleveland PD - Dem last 20 years, and 63 of 78 years
Meridian (Miss) PD - Dem the last 7 years
Maricopa (AZ) - elected, current is dem
Ferguson PD - Mixed, Dem when shooting happened
DC PD - Dem the last 60 years,
Miami PD - Mixed last 20 years
Baltimore PD - Dem the last 50+ years
Newark PD - Dem the last 60+ years
Portland PD - Dem the last 40 years
 
Last edited:

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
Again, the committees do not have the power of termination or to file charges. I posted links to the Summary of the investigations that resulted in each of the seventeen Consent Decrees between Cities and the DOJ after U.S. Attorneys investigation.

How about an example. Chicago.
The murder of Laquan McDonald took place on October 20, 2014, in Chicago, Illinois, when the 17-year-old African American was fatally shot by Chicago Police Officer Jason Van Dyke. A court case was filed to release the video of the murder which was released a year later (Nov 2015). He was walking away and shot in the back six seconds after Van Dyke exited his car. In total, Van Dyke fired 16 shots at McDonald in 14–15 seconds, expending the maximum capacity of his 9 mm semi-automatic firearm. The first shot hit McDonald, who spun and fell to the ground. As McDonald lay on the ground, still holding a knife that was folded, Van Dyke fired more shots into him. Police portrayals of the incident prompted police supervisors to rule the case a justifiable homicide and within the bounds of the department's use of force guidelines.[

The day the video was released, Officer Van Dyke was charged with first-degree murder and initially held without bail at the Cook County Jail. The investigation report in January 2017, describing the police as having a culture of "excessive violence," especially against minority suspects, and of having poor training and supervision. Van Dyke was a 14-year veteran of the Chicago Police Department.

Since 2001, some 20 citizen complaints have been filed against Officer Van Dyke, but none resulted in disciplinary action. Ten of the complaints allege he used excessive force, and two involve the use of a firearm. According to CNN, "the Chicago Police Department has about 12,000 officers.

Charges were filed. On October 5, 2018, Van Dyke was found guilty of second degree murder and 16 counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, but was found not guilty of official misconduct. Van Dyke emptied his On January 18, 2019, Van Dyke was sentenced to 6.75 years in prison for the second-degree murder conviction alone.

Eight police cars responded to the complaint. Only three videos from dash-cams could be obtained and all were without audio, which automatically kicks in. A nearby video from a Burger King was taken with passwords by police, which had gaps in it.

Like Van Dyke, 402 officers have 20 or more complaints on file in the database. The most complaints against any officer, according to the database, is 68. The database shows that of the 20 complaints against Van Dyke none resulted in discipline. Five complaints in the database were "not sustained," five were unfounded, four resulted in exoneration, five had unknown outcomes and one resulted in no action taken."

The investigation by DOJ and the US and State Attorneys found a pattern of unlawful force we found resulted from a collection of poor police practices that our investigation indicated are used routinely within CPD. We found that officers engage in
tactically unsound and unnecessary foot pursuits, and that these foot pursuits too often end with officers unreasonably shooting someone—including unarmed individuals.

Among the most egregious uses of deadly force we reviewed were incidents in which
CPD officers shot at suspects who presented no immediate threat. CPD’s use of less-lethal force also contributes to the pattern of unlawful conduct we found. CPD does not investigate or review these force incidents to determine whether its responses to these events were appropriate or lawful, or whether force could have been avoided.
The City is currently taking steps to improve its response to persons in mental health or
behavioral crisis, in part in response to the tragic shootings deaths of Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie Jones.

The City received over 30,000 complaints of police misconduct during the five years
preceding our investigation, but fewer than 2% were sustained, resulting in no discipline in 98% of these complaints.

The investigation found that deficiencies in officer training are exacerbated by the lack of adequatesupervision CPD provides to officers in the field, which further contributes to CPD’s pattern or practice of unconstitutional policing. CPD does not sufficiently encourage or facilitate supervisors to provide meaningful supervision to officers. Overall, CPD does not hold supervisors accountable for performing certain basic supervisory tasks, including guiding officer behavior or reporting misconduct.

CPD’s pattern or practice of unreasonable force and systemic deficiencies fall heaviest on the predominantly black and Latino neighborhoods on the South and West Sides of Chicago, which are also experiencing higher crime. Raw statistics show that CPD uses force almost ten times more often against blacks than against whites. As a result, residents in black neighborhoods suffer more of the harms caused by breakdowns in uses of force, training, supervision, accountability, and community policing.

The pattern or practice of unreasonable force, coupled with the recurrence of unaddressed
racially discriminatory conduct by officers further erodes community trust and police
effectiveness. Our review of complaints of racially discriminatory language found repeated
instances where credible complaints were not adequately addressed. Moreover, we found that
some Chicago police officers expressed discriminatory views and intolerance with regard to race,
religion, gender, and national origin in public social media forums, and that CPD takes
insufficient steps to prevent or appropriately respond to this animus.

Activist yesterday gathered outside Chicago City Hall to advocate for an Ovesight board that will have the power to investigate and fire police officers - the bad apples.

More:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/file/925846/download

shouldn't you be citing the below and others in your copy/paste? Wouldn't want Irish#1 to think those were your own words.

Federal Reports on Police Killings: Ferguson, Cleveland, Baltimore, and Chicago
By U.S. Department of Justice

The Psychology and Sociology of Wrongful Convictions: Forensic Science Reform
edited by Wendy J Koen, C. Michael Bowers

Wiki, and

CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/25/us/jason-van-dyke-previous-complaints-lawsuits/index.html
 
Last edited:

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,376
Reaction score
5,718
For a very long time, the Church has hid, and covered up the behavior, so not sure you can say they are making sure the bad ones are rooted out. Recently, the tide seems to be turning, but the coverups themselves are as much blemish as the actual crime.

Fair enough. The recent perceived willingness for change is what fueled my opinion, and my positive stance on the Church's ability to get the bad ones out.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact he (Snoopdog) openly said I think all priests are pedophiles. What the fuck was that about lmao.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
Fair enough. The recent perceived willingness for change is what fueled my opinion, and my positive stance on the Church's ability to get the bad ones out.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact he (Snoopdog) openly said I think all priests are pedophiles. What the fuck was that about lmao.

I didn't think Snoop accused you of saying "all priests are peds". I'll go back and re-read, but I thought his point was that the comparison was a bad a one. More or less that there is a fine line sometimes between needed, and excessive force. While there is no line what so ever when it comes to being a ped.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
I don't see MSM reporting on the events yesterday, but looks like CHOP might not be so peaceful...


One reported dead, one wounded in overnight Capitol Hill protest zone shooting
https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/...overnight-capitol-hill-protest-zone-shooting/

And

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yesterday I was detained for streaming in the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Seattle?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Seattle</a> free zone (<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CHAZ?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CHAZ</a> / <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CHOP?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CHOP</a>) <br><br>"This is not a public park anymore, this is CHOP zone"<br>"There is no media allowed in here" <br><br>*Grabs me by my jacket and backpack from behind choking me* <br><br>"Help!"<br>"Who's going to help you?" <a href="https://t.co/rfWXs5xrQA">pic.twitter.com/rfWXs5xrQA</a></p>— Shawn Whiting (@ShawnGui_) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShawnGui_/status/1273603987845988352?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
We don't want police; we just want a gang or thug filled zone.

Per reports, two different shootings. Police and fire tried to go in to help, but were prohibited by the crowds. The zone inhabitants ended up taking both to the hospital where one was pronounced dead. Not a lot of detail other than that.
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
Don’t worry, they got it covered. Let’s get the next round of garden updates to know it’s all good. I Would think they’d be proud of what’s been built, that is unless they are trying to hide something or manipulate what the public sees. Huh, why would they do that?
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,954
Reaction score
11,239
Per reports, two different shootings. Police and fire tried to go in to help, but were prohibited by the crowds. The zone inhabitants ended up taking both to the hospital where one was pronounced dead. Not a lot of detail other than that.

Rolling Stone did a nice, ‘Real Life Garden of Eden’ paradise story yesterday
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Meed;ess to say, Chicago PD has a systemic problem, ineffective oversight, no accountability, little confidence from the community it is sworn to protect and serve, disciplinary ineffectiveness that puts the same police back on the streets, and a culture of racism within some of the PD. Body and vehicle cams are "not working" during deadly use of force. I picked it at random.

While the pandemic created the need to cut that pissed PDs off, the protests on use of force was fed by communities that were fed up.

Philadelphia cut $33 million in cuts, canceling a $19 million increase. The city is facing a loss of $749 million.

Portland cut $15 million. The pandemic created a $75 million shortfall in the city’s general fund. All city bureaus were told they needed to cut 5.6% from their general fund budgets, including the police bureau.

Los Angeles is facing a $231 million shortfall which could go up to $598 million depending on the length of the shutdown. The city is already trying to furlough 15,000 employees, to the tune of about 10% in reduced annual pay, in order to save about $139 million. Some of that will be stopping police overtime temporarily. They will not see the 10% pay cut other city employees will see.

Baltimore with a police budget of half a billion dollars and projected $103 million less in revenue is cutting $22 million from their police budget.

Milwaukee is proposing a 10% decrease in the police budget.

Salt Lake City is putting $2.8 million into a holding account for now, if not slashing it from the department entirely.

New York City is proposing a $1 billion cut from a police budget of $6 billion. One of the largest single savings — roughly $300 million — would come from not replacing more than 2,300 expected departures from the force this year. The NYPD also spends an enormous sum on overtime, having logged $635 million worth in the current fiscal year. The NYPD spent $327 million on school safety this fiscal year.

All of these cuts or proposed cuts come from projected loss figures compiled by the City Comptrollers and passed by their city's Councils. Many of their PD departments budgets in years past have been considered sacrosanct with regular budget increases.

Much of these are economic decisions due to losses and community feedback but also examinations ofhow much bang for their bucks they are getting. Chicago has nearly tripled per capita police spending since 1964. The quality of policing and systemic problems in Chicago have been noted above. But it does take a murder, protests and federal investigation and intervention to make changes. Chicago is not proposing any cuts to police budgets which last year was $1.7 billion, which comprises 40% of their overall budget.

Percentage-wise many of these are small cuts and all don't decrease police salaries, but the "cuts" focus on overtime, delaying recruitments, cutting ancillary services, canceling increases and projected savings from those. Other city employees have to take cuts in salaries in some places unlike the police.
 
Last edited:
Top