Police State USA

Circa

Conspire to keep It real
Messages
8,000
Reaction score
818
Multiple Atlanta police departments are reporting that their deputies are not showing up for their shifts tonight after the murder charge. Asking outside city departments to come in to fill.

I'll share a link once a more reliable source becomes available.

#1. Why would the media say this type of thing, IF... they wanted to keep the population safe?

#2. Y'all better get ready. The old men that know what freedom and democracy looks like.... We about to educate the kids.
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2026!
Messages
31,523
Reaction score
17,410
Good, if they are not aloud to do their jobs then whats the point?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Text from APD officer: <br><br>“I can confirm the walk-off is real. Whole shifts have left and overnight shifts are refusing to come in”</p>— Johnny (Joey) Jones (@Johnny_Joey) <a href="https://twitter.com/Johnny_Joey/status/1273410532872261633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The hypocrisy runs deep. Lots of left wing Tweets are calling the APD "spineless" and "babies" for not showing up to their shifts tonight. Are they (the police) not giving them what they want? Did they not want the police departments to dissolve? Have to wonder how long this will go on, and what the repercussions will be.
 

irishff1014

Well-known member
Messages
26,514
Reaction score
9,289
Multiple Atlanta police departments are reporting that their deputies are not showing up for their shifts tonight after the murder charge. Asking outside city departments to come in to fill.

I'll share a link once a more reliable source becomes available.

Correct and mutual aid from other towns has stopped. The only agency help is Georgia Highway patrol. Keeping digging your own grave.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
A few zones walked off. They're calling outlying counties for help and were told to get bent.

Feels good.

Yep, why would any county want to come and help, putting their officers at risk.

I was really impressed with the mayor's handling after the first night of the original protests, but she has 100% regressed to her typical status quo.

The Police Chief that "resigned" was nationally recognized for her efforts and reform, was very well liked by all, only to be pushed out when this happens. It's funny, she was just the darling of the media a few weeks ago.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
I am a dispatcher and am on some closed groups and from what i am hearing even the dispatchers are walking out.

Guessing this is the tip of the iceberg. Didn't get to talk to my buddy tonight, but from what he said earlier, folks are very unhappy and very torn on how to protest things. On one hand, they don't want folks to become at risk if they're not working, on the other hand, they are furious and feel like their options are very limited.
 

irishff1014

Well-known member
Messages
26,514
Reaction score
9,289
Guessing this is the tip of the iceberg. Didn't get to talk to my buddy tonight, but from what he said earlier, folks are very unhappy and very torn on how to protest things. On one hand, they don't want folks to become at risk if they're not working, on the other hand, they are furious and feel like their options are very limited.

Yup. I know some places aren't allowing their people to get dressed until they get to work because of the threat they will get targeted because of their uniform.
 

Ndaccountant

Old Hoss
Messages
8,370
Reaction score
5,771
Good for them (Atlanta PD). While I think the situation should not have transpired the way that it did, I think the charges are beyond laughable.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Part of the problem is the reaction is against all policemen and many want immediate changes like reducing funding for police. They're reacting with their emotions and not thinking how to fix these problems. It's commonly accepted that the majority of policemen are good people and conduct themselves properly, yet all of them get thrown in the same pot because of the bad apples. Reducing funding isn't going to eliminate bad policemen. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If nothing else, funding should be increased so better psychological testing can be made during the application process and then have regular psychological testing of all policemen after they are on the force to ensure we keep the idiots from wearing a badge. Guidelines on physical restraint, medical attention, etc. need to be revamped as well, but it still comes down to who's wearing a badge.

I detailed investigations into multiple PDs, posted a Consent Decree for one (Albuquerque) - post #2233 - and cited that almost 70% of Americans feel that there are deeper and broader problems in PDs. I believe about 17-20 cities' PDs have such egregious and repetitive violations that they are under the supervisions of a judge based on DOJ and U.S. Attorney's investigations. One can't help but admire the recent statements of so many Chiefs of Police about the Floyd murder and others as well as those who stand or kneel with protesters. This isn't about emotional reacting, a few bad apples, or more training. Use of force guidelines and training again and again just doesn't seem to change an environment that allows those bad apples to return again and again. Each PD has them. Each PD knows who they are. Any community asks why are they still on the force? Those guidelines have been discussed for a decade. Ask yourself where we would be today if what is having to be enacted into federal legislation was instituted five years ago. Ask yourself where we will be in five years without them or if the status quo continues. It does come down to who's wearing a badge, but not only based on who is hired, but who needs to be fired or prosecuted. You would hope that the good officers will insist on rooting out those who sully the Department's name, act in criminal bahaviors, and lead a PD forward in accountability and transparency to their community. Hundreds of thousands of peaceful Americans take the time out to march petitioning for the changes needed.

I'll just post the beginning of the Consent Decree Intro for the Albuquerque PD because I cited it:
Based on our investigation, we have reasonable cause to believe that APD engages in a
pattern or practice of use of excessive force, including deadly force, in violation of the Fourth Amendment and Section 14141. Our investigation included a comprehensive review of APD’s operations and the City’s oversight systems. We have determined that structural and systemic deficiencies—including insufficient oversight, inadequate training, and ineffective policies contribute to the use of unreasonable force.
At the conclusion of this letter, we outline the remedial measures that we believe are necessary to ensure that force is used in accordance with the Constitution. In some instances, these recommendations build on measures and initiativesthat are already underway within the department.

We recognize the challenges faced by officers in Albuquerque and in communities across
the nation every day. Policing can be dangerous; at times, officers must use force, including deadly force, to protect themselves and others in the course of their work. The use of force by police is guided by the need to protect public safety and the duty to protect individuals from unreasonable searches and seizures under the Fourth Amendment. While most force used by APD officers is within these strictures, a significant amount falls short of these requirements. Although APD has taken steps to allay the public’s concerns about the department’s use of force, these initiatives have been insufficient to ensure consistent accountability. They also have not addressed longstanding deficiencies that have allowed a culture of indifference to constitutional
policing and insularity to develop within the department.

Link to DOJ Consent Decrees under "Police Reforms by Year - 2009 to 2017" page 24 Othere pages include Depts getting Crisis Intervention Training, Mental Health Training, Citizens recordings of Police Actions, Summaries of Comprehensive Trainings for each of the PDs, Police Reforms prior to 2009, Police Reforms by State, the Investigative Findings for each PD that triggered the Decree, etc, etc.
 
Last edited:

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,159
Reaction score
3,991
So the dude in Cali that killed a federal employee at the Oakland protests and cop near Santa Cruz was a right wing nut job.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Apologies to those who are aware of the incidents from coast to coast. Minneapolis, Louisville, Atlanta, Las Vegas, Denver, LA, DC, Seattle, and more. Journalists say the deliberate attacks and detentions on those who clearly identify themselves as journalists is an attack on the 1st Amendment.

As Protests Continue Nationwide, Some Say Police Are Hurting Journalists
June 3, 20205:03 AM ET (NPR, includes lists of cities and injuries with arrests)

Watchdogs say assaults on journalists covering protests are "on a scale we've never seen before" (Time, June 4)

Between May 26 to June 3, the tracker received more than 279 claims of violations to press freedom—claims that can range from physical assault, arrest, damage or seizure of equipment, and several other additional criteria. Those overseeing the tracker have documented 100 to 150 claims per year for the past three years. But the past few days alone investigators have been handling more than that average.

“It’s a scale that we have not seen before,” Kirstin McCudden, managing editor of the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker, tells TIME. “It’s unprecedented in scope without a doubt.”

Portland journalists ‘should not be targeted’ by cops during protests, mayor and police chief say
Updated Jun 17, 2020; Posted Jun 17, 2020 (Oregon Live)

At least nine Portland journalists, including two from The Oregonian/OregonLive, allege they’ve been beaten, shoved, pepper-sprayed or harassed during the protests against police violence and systemic racism that have continued for three weeks.

Similar scenes have played out in Oregon and across the country during the demonstrations that have erupted in the aftermath of George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis under the knee of a police officer.

Officers have arrested, tear-gassed, manhandled and shot rubber bullets directly at members of the media even when they have identified themselves as reporters.

Police attacks on journalists are attacks on us all (Seattle Times reprint of Miami Herald Editorial)
June 16, 2020 at 2:34 am Updated June 16, 2020 at 4:19 pm

It’s shocking that police across the country intentionally targeted self-identified journalists covering protests against police brutality and racism. Ironically, reporters were subjected to the same overreaction and excessive force that was being decried by protesters. They were tear-gassed and handcuffed. They were hit with rubber bullets and police batons.

Police assaults on reporters, however, were especially insidious, because their actions, or overreactions, were bolstered by government sanction. They bore the weaponry and the government’s authority to injure and detain. Their assaults on journalist were also assaults on what Americans are supposed to hold dear: their constitutional right to be informed without government interference. Instead, police in too many cities deliberately went after members of the media for lawfully doing their jobs. Cops sought to silence these journalists who worked diligently, and this time, in the line of fire, so that we would know a fuller story.
 
Last edited:

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2026!
Messages
31,523
Reaction score
17,410
Just saw that another autonomous zone has opened up, this time in Portland. It's called the "Patrick Kimmons Autonomous Zone" or PKAZ.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The antifa "Patrick Kimmons Autonomous Zone" in Portland is named after a black male who was killed by police in 2018 after he shot two people and charged at police with his revolver. <br><br>Antifa wish he got away with killing more. <a href="https://t.co/3IqrLr3Yr1">pic.twitter.com/3IqrLr3Yr1</a></p>— Andy Ngô (@MrAndyNgo) <a href="https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1273548325053100032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

There's video of the Kimmons shooting and the officers bringing him down. Why a criminal would be glorified in such a way is beyond me.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
Just saw that another autonomous zone has opened up, this time in Portland. It's called the "Patrick Kimmons Autonomous Zone" or PKAZ.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The antifa "Patrick Kimmons Autonomous Zone" in Portland is named after a black male who was killed by police in 2018 after he shot two people and charged at police with his revolver. <br><br>Antifa wish he got away with killing more. <a href="https://t.co/3IqrLr3Yr1">pic.twitter.com/3IqrLr3Yr1</a></p>— Andy Ngô (@MrAndyNgo) <a href="https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1273548325053100032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

There's video of the Kimmons shooting and the officers bringing him down. Why a criminal would be glorified in such a way is beyond me.

They are doing it with the guy in Indy, who posted himself fleeing from police, then fired a couple of shots at police before he was shot dead.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,620
Reaction score
20,104
I detailed investigations into multiple PDs, posted a Consent Decree for one (Albuquerque) - post #2233 - and cited that almost 70% of Americans feel that there are deeper and broader problems in PDs. I believe about 17-20 cities' PDs have such egregious and repetitive violations that they are under the supervisions of a judge based on DOJ and U.S. Attorney's investigations. One can't help but admire the recent statements of so many Chiefs of Police about the Floyd murder and others as well as those who stand or kneel with protesters. This isn't about emotional reacting, a few bad apples, or more training. Use of force guidelines and training again and again just doesn't seem to change an environment that allows those bad apples to return again and again. Each PD has them. Each PD knows who they are. Any community asks why are they still on the force? Those guidelines have been discussed for a decade. Ask yourself where we would be today if what is having to be enacted into federal legislation was instituted five years ago. Ask yourself where we will be in five years without them or if the status quo continues. It does come down to who's wearing a badge, but not only based on who is hired, but who needs to be fired or prosecuted. You would hope that the good officers will insist on rooting out those who sully the Department's name, act in criminal bahaviors, and lead a PD forward in accountability and transparency to their community. Hundreds of thousands of peaceful Americans take the time out to march petitioning for the changes needed.

I'll just post the beginning of the Consent Decree Intro for the Albuquerque PD because I cited it:


Link to DOJ Consent Decrees under "Police Reforms by Year - 2009 to 2017" page 24 Othere pages include Depts getting Crisis Intervention Training, Mental Health Training, Citizens recordings of Police Actions, Summaries of Comprehensive Trainings for each of the PDs, Police Reforms prior to 2009, Police Reforms by State, the Investigative Findings for each PD that triggered the Decree, etc, etc.

So wanting to defund the police isn't overreacting? Not wanting to get to the root of the problem is okay? Better psychological testing before hiring won't help weed out potential bad cops before they are hired? If you think police departments in general are bad and employee mostly bad cops you are mistaken. Every police department has it's bad cops and they need to be eliminated. Couple that with better procedures that prohibit certain tactics for restraining, medical attention, etc. will help make police forces much better. Simply passing reform isn't enough. Enforcing the reforms is key.
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
Ha, I’ve been wondering when Portland would copy Seattle with this crap. So glad I moved out of that trash can city.
 

Irishize

Well-known member
Messages
4,531
Reaction score
461
So wanting to defund the police isn't overreacting? Not wanting to get to the root of the problem is okay? Better psychological testing before hiring won't help weed out potential bad cops before they are hired? If you think police departments in general are bad and employee mostly bad cops you are mistaken. Every police department has it's bad cops and they need to be eliminated. Couple that with better procedures that prohibit certain tactics for restraining, medical attention, etc. will help make police forces much better. Simply passing reform isn't enough. Enforcing the reforms is key.

Precisely. With this logic, every profession is evil. I do think improvements can be made with extended training & better psych testing. And if that means they need to earn more money for better people, than it’s worth it. I listened to a podcast w/ former cold case detective, J. Warner Wallace. He admitted that some recruits fit a profile similar to an athlete being recruited for a sport. When they saw a recruit who was 6’3” 230 lbs, they could be confident that he could handle himself in a dangerous situation. He said they learned fast, however; that the recruits need the mental aspect to be just as sharp.

But back to your point, I think of it in this regard:

Not all cops are bad cops
Not all priests are pedophiles
Not all NFL players are domestic abusers
Not all physicians are unethical
Not all financial advisors are pilfering their clients’ savings
Nopostal workers snap and “go postal” (remember when that was a thing?)

We talk about diversity and not stereotyping folks, yet a few bad apples (yes...a few) make poor decisions & now it’s throw the baby out w/ the bath water?!?

For those who have made up their mind on this issue, be careful b/c you’re going to start seeing other storiesshow why cops have good reason to be ready for anything on even the most “routine” call.
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,376
Reaction score
5,718
Precisely. With this logic, every profession is evil. I do think improvements can be made with extended training & better psych testing. And if that means they need to earn more money for better people, than it’s worth it. I listened to a podcast w/ former cold case detective, J. Warner Wallace. He admitted that some recruits fit a profile similar to an athlete being recruited for a sport. When they saw a recruit who was 6’3” 230 lbs, they could be confident that he could handle himself in a dangerous situation. He said they learned fast, however; that the recruits need the mental aspect to be just as sharp.

But back to your point, I think of it in this regard:

Not all cops are bad cops
Not all priests are pedophiles
Not all NFL players are domestic abusers
Not all physicians are unethical
Not all financial advisors are pilfering their clients’ savings
Nopostal workers snap and “go postal” (remember when that was a thing?)

We talk about diversity and not stereotyping folks, yet a few bad apples (yes...a few) make poor decisions & now it’s throw the baby out w/ the bath water?!?

For those who have made up their mind on this issue, be careful b/c you’re going to start seeing other storiesshow why cops have good reason to be ready for anything on even the most “routine” call.

I think a lot of the push back from the police unions is what's causing a lot of anger from people on the Left. When the 75 year old man got his head cracked off the ground, and the officers responsible were suspended, 57 officers resigned. That doesn't strike many on the Left with a group of people willing to get rid of the bad apples. With respect to the Church, (my personal view) you don't see priests resigning in protest that a priest is charged with pedophilia. Or when someone in the NFL gets charged with domestic assault there isn't a rush to defend their actions or justify it. Of course the comparisons aren't exact and require nuance, but from a lot of people on the Left it seems like the frustration is coming from the reluctance to even consider there might be a problem.

Just my 0.02 from being around a lot of hardcore Leftists, not necessarily my opinion.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
I think a lot of the push back from the police unions is what's causing a lot of anger from people on the Left. When the 75 year old man got his head cracked off the ground, and the officers responsible were suspended, 57 officers resigned. That doesn't strike many on the Left with a group of people willing to get rid of the bad apples. With respect to the Church, (my personal view) you don't see priests resigning in protest that a priest is charged with pedophilia. Or when someone in the NFL gets charged with domestic assault there isn't a rush to defend their actions or justify it. Of course the comparisons aren't exact and require nuance, but from a lot of people on the Left it seems like the frustration is coming from the reluctance to even consider there might be a problem.

Just my 0.02 from being around a lot of hardcore Leftists, not necessarily my opinion.

Wut????

No where in the job description of a priest is raping little boys. Police are trained to a discharge their firearm as part of their role as a LEO. That's a very tall order Society asks of police officers. Getting it done perfectly will never happen....but comparing it to raping little boys is reprehensible!
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,376
Reaction score
5,718
Wut????

No where in the job description of a priest is raping little boys. Police are trained to a discharge their firearm as part of their role as a LEO. That's a very tall order Society asks of police officers. Getting it done perfectly will never happen....but comparing it to raping little boys is reprehensible!

Not at all what I said. You can make the same argument that nowhere in a LEO job description is using excessive force on people. The comparison came in the post I was responding to.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
Not at all what I said. You can make the same argument that nowhere in a LEO job description is using excessive force on people. The comparison came in the post I was responding to.

Actually it is exactly what you said. I am sure you didn't mean too say it.... and want to walk it back....as you should....but apparently can't.

So once again....using "excessive force" is a subjective ruling....there is a fine line between proper force and excessive force most of the time....there is no fine line in raping little boys...NONE!
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
7,376
Reaction score
5,718
Actually it is exactly what you said. I am sure you didn't mean too say it.... and want to walk it back....as you should....but apparently can't.

So once again....using "excessive force" is a subjective ruling....there is a fine line between proper force and excessive force most of the time....there is no fine line in raping little boys...NONE!

I see you're having a regular one.

I made the comment that the priests aren't standing along side the bad ones and rightfully making sure that bad priests are rooted out. Could not be clearer.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,005
It seems virtually impossible to have a nuanced conversation about this topic. There are a lot of emotionally charged responses on both sides. George Floyd was such a catalyst because virtually everyone agrees that the casual disregard for his life... over something as trivial as an alleged counterfeit $20 bill... was appalling. They knew they were being filmed murdering someone and it didn't phase them in the slightest. They did not care if he lived or died.

Most policing situations are not as clear cut. But I started this thread years ago because it was becoming increasingly inarguable... mainly thanks to the proliferation of cell phone cameras, dash cams, and body cams... that there are MASSIVE issues with policing in this country relative to virtually all other advanced western countries. This doesn't just affect Black citizens, but they certainly have the longest and most tragic history of being adversely affected by cops.

I thought Chappelle's monologue really hit at the core of why we're seeing such a powerful response to George Floyd that is also expanding outward to other policing issues:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3tR6mKcBbT4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There needs to be change, period. What that looks like can be debated. I'd like to see accountability when cops make mistakes or commit crimes. Independent investigation and oversight. Police departments and unions that protect bad cops dismantled or held liable in civil court. And many other things.

If you're focusing on ANTIFA... where everyone who isn't a far leftist shill agrees that they're, at minimum, bad actors and at worst domestic terrorists... instead of why this all started, then I think we're losing the big picture. If we focus on statues and names and culture questions... again, I think we're losing sight of police reform being why the vast majority of people took to that. Everyone should be coming together to ask themselves "why are American cops so violent, why do they have so little accountability, why do they target the communities they do, and what can we do about it?" Instead, we already have a lot of apologia about cops and their "difficult" job and I'm skeptical we will get the real reform we need.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
So wanting to defund the police isn't overreacting? Not wanting to get to the root of the problem is okay? Better psychological testing before hiring won't help weed out potential bad cops before they are hired? If you think police departments in general are bad and employee mostly bad cops you are mistaken. Every police department has it's bad cops and they need to be eliminated. Couple that with better procedures that prohibit certain tactics for restraining, medical attention, etc. will help make police forces much better. Simply passing reform isn't enough. Enforcing the reforms is key.

We each have our experiences and insights. Reforms and Consent Decrees based on comprehensive reviews highlight systemic problems. You can read them if you like. If PDs would kick the "bad apples" out, that would be a step forward. There's a Blue Wall that resists oversight and changes, though progress is achieved when a US Attorney and the DOJ step in. Don't most if not all major PDs have psych testing before hiring and after shootings? If defunding means cutting budgets and reallocating them to appropriate services, I'm for that. If internal and external oversight just don't work as in many of them and discipline is a joke, enforcement is up to more than a local Oversight Board whose hands are tied. Qualified immunity needs to change from whatever an individual cop thinks deadly force is justified. Review the past discipline records of those on the force using the same criteria that has led to prosecution of the "bad apples" and prosecute them, if need be, to get them off the force. Community perceptions would change though that may take longer in minority communities. I guess you have not read what I have posted to make a statement that I think all PDs are bad. Nature of a social media site I guess. Happy to clarify. The use of militia groups regarded as "friendlies" and outright attacks on journalists is concerning in addition to the Blue Walls. They can Sick Out if they want. Communities can always ask if they are there to "Protect and Serve".
 
Last edited:

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
It seems virtually impossible to have a nuanced conversation about this topic. There are a lot of emotionally charged responses on both sides. George Floyd was such a catalyst because virtually everyone agrees that the casual disregard for his life... over something as trivial as an alleged counterfeit $20 bill... was appalling. They knew they were being filmed murdering someone and it didn't phase them in the slightest. They did not care if he lived or died.

Most policing situations are not as clear cut. But I started this thread years ago because it was becoming increasingly inarguable... mainly thanks to the proliferation of cell phone cameras, dash cams, and body cams... that there are MASSIVE issues with policing in this country relative to virtually all other advanced western countries. This doesn't just affect Black citizens, but they certainly have the longest and most tragic history of being adversely affected by cops.

I thought Chappelle's monologue really hit at the core of why we're seeing such a powerful response to George Floyd that is also expanding outward to other policing issues:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3tR6mKcBbT4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There needs to be change, period. What that looks like can be debated. I'd like to see accountability when cops make mistakes or commit crimes. Independent investigation and oversight. Police departments and unions that protect bad cops dismantled or held liable in civil court. And many other things.

If you're focusing on ANTIFA... where everyone who isn't a far leftist shill agrees that they're, at minimum, bad actors and at worst domestic terrorists... instead of why this all started, then I think we're losing the big picture. If we focus on statues and names and culture questions... again, I think we're losing sight of police reform being why the vast majority of people took to that. Everyone should be coming together to ask themselves "why are American cops so violent, why do they have so little accountability, why do they target the communities they do, and what can we do about it?" Instead, we already have a lot of apologia about cops and their "difficult" job and I'm skeptical we will get the real reform we need.

Not Vitually...but rather ALL....advanced Western Countries DO NOT have the Second Amendment and have its citizens walking around with concealed or open carry weaponry.

To try and simplify this situation with so many Americans armed is folly. A militarized police force is a natural extension of the second amendment. I am agnostic on the second amendment so I see it as it is what it is.

I agree with the part that smart phones is a game changer...but not necessarily a purely positive one. Riots may become more common as people post incidents on line to incite a segment of the population who want to be incited. But I would rather have the video's than not regardless.

One thing for certain, this is not simple issue with simple fixes.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Sessions, the Trump Admin and Consent Decrees

Sessions, the Trump Admin and Consent Decrees

Here's Why Jeff Sessions' Parting Shot Is Worse Than You Thought
Former attorney general’s directives make it easy to render
federal action against abusive police departments ineffective.
(Marshall Project, Nov 18, 2018)

On his last day as U.S. attorney general, Jeff Sessions issued a memo making it more difficult for Justice Department officials to obtain court-enforced agreements to stop civil rights abuses by local police departments. At least, that’s how his missive has been framed. It’s actually worse than that.

Stymieing future consent decrees is bad enough, but Sessions’ memo will make it challenging to negotiate any effective police reform agreement going forward. It also makes it more difficult for the Justice Department’s civil rights lawyers to enforce agreements already in place.

Consent decrees are legally binding agreements with local police departments found to have engaged in practices that routinely violate the civil rights of those within their jurisdictions. The Justice Department has negotiated such agreements in places like Ferguson, Baltimore, New Orleans, Cleveland and Los Angeles. Work remains to be done. Just last week, another possible candidate has emerged in Elkhart, Indiana, where ProPublica reports that out of 34 police supervisors, 28 have been disciplined, 15 suspended, seven involved in fatal shootings and three convicted of criminal charges.

A report on the use of force in police departments across the country released last week by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights further underscores the broad need for this work. That report discusses a generally high rate of use of force, racial disparities in how force is used and the rift such tactics drives between police and communities most in need of police protection. The report calls for the Justice Department to return to “the use of consent decrees where necessary to ensure that constitutional policing standards are upheld.”

The DOJ’s own police misconduct statute explicitly requires that the attorney general seek relief that will eliminate the pattern or practice of misconduct, and case law requires that consent decrees do more than simply prohibit unlawful conduct. But Sessions’ memo ignores those requirements, directing any relief to be “narrowly tailored” to the injury caused by the misconduct, and that a consent decree not be used to achieve a “general policy goal.” These directives make it easy for those hostile to federal enforcement to line-item veto the most critical portions of a consent decree, rendering the entire order ineffective.

For example, Baltimore and Ferguson both have consent decree requirements mandating training in force de-escalation and implicit bias. These are corrective actions necessary to remedy patterns of excessive force used against persons in mental health crisis and black men. Will political appointees in this administration understand this—will they care? Is requiring greater community engagement, as many consent decrees do, a “general policy goal” prohibited by the memo? Or is it an essential element to overcoming the bias and stereotypes that fuel unlawful racial and ethnic discrimination by police? Police experts know it is the latter, but there is a good chance that this Justice Department would categorize it as the former.

The memo also discourages new consent decrees that are more than three years long, or requirements that a decree remain in place until the remedy has been fully implemented. This takes another unique consent decree strength—its staying power—and turns it on its head.

The Sessions memo, contrary to some news reports, also has implications for consent decrees that are already in place. For one thing, it states explicitly that any significant change to a consent decree must be approved in the same manner as a new consent decree, thus making them subject to all the same roadblocks above. (cont)
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,005
Not Vitually...but rather ALL....advanced Western Countries DO NOT have the Second Amendment and have its citizens walking around with concealed or open carry weaponry.

To try and simplify this situation with so many Americans armed is folly. A militarized police force is a natural extension of the second amendment. I am agnostic on the second amendment so I see it as it is what it is.

I agree with the part that smart phones is a game changer...but not necessarily a purely positive one. Riots may become more common as people post incidents on line to incite a segment of the population who want to be incited. But I would rather have the video's than not regardless.

One thing for certain, this is not simple issue with simple fixes.

So if I wanted to make a counterargument against this it would that places like Switzerland have gun ownership rates at ~28% and the United States has 30% (43% household rate), and they don't have people (armed or unarmed) getting shot at the rate cops do in the United States. Vermont has gun ownership rates that exceed most places with the highest police shooting rates. You're probably right that cops are militarized and react how they do in part because of the amount of armed citizens they encounter, but there have to be other contributing factors or we'd see more proportional police killing rates city-to-city domestically and when contrasted to similar countries.

For example in Finland, which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in Europe, they had seven total people killed by police between 2000-2018. Cops in the United States killed over a thousand people in 2019 alone.
 
Top