Plans for Nose. 2014

[Crazy Balki]

Okay, so the obvious issue defensively going into next year is that Nix will most likely be gone, leaving a huge hole (literally) to fill. ND seems to be whiffing on their chances to get a quality nose in this year's class, which is not good considering at this point, there aren't any defensive players that are Nix's size or anywhere near it. So I have a simple fix.

John Montelus.

Montelus, in my opinion, would fit perfectly in the role. He's aggressive at the point of attack, is flat out huge and plays with a large motor. At this point, we have to at least give it a try. The line will have more than enough bodies at Guard with Bivin, McGovern and Hanratty as well as Nelson, Mustipher and Byrne arriving next season.

My opinion, is that we cannot afford to play the 3-4 with someone undersized like they have been so far when Nix is not in.

But what do you think? Or do you have a better idea?

 

[anarin]

nix most likely gone? ummm...

 

[BGIF]

There has been speculation several times on this board about moving Montelus to defense. You can find some of it in his Profile here:

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/201...ntelus-notre-dame-signed-loi.html#post1098647

He was an OL in HS, not a two way player.

He was one of the many preseason scratches due to injury. He sustained a shoulder injury and had surgery before the start of preseason practice. I have not heard reports about him this fall and suspect he had spent his time rehabbing that shoulder. That would likely prevent him from contact and lifting until the Spring.

Is 6 months of weight training and Spring Ball and Preseason Camp sufficient to make him an immovable object in the middle taking on 600 to 660 pounds of charging offensive linemen double teams?

I don't see so.

 

[Crazy Balki]

There has been speculation several times on this board about moving Montelus to defense. You can find some of it in his Profile here:

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/201...ntelus-notre-dame-signed-loi.html#post1098647

He was an OL in HS, not a two way player.

He was one of the many preseason scratches due to injury. He sustained a shoulder injury and had surgery before the start of preseason practice. I have not heard reports about him this fall and suspect he had spent his time rehabbing that shoulder. That would likely prevent him from contact and lifting until the Spring.

Is 6 months of weight training and Spring Ball and Preseason Camp sufficient to make him an immovable object in the middle taking on 600 to 660 pounds of charging offensive linemen double teams?

I don't see so.

Well, then we're screwed...

I don't see anybody currently on roster than can replace Nix adequately, unless someone moves over from OL. The man behind him graduates next year as well, Kona Schwenke.

If the Irish are lucky to get Griffin, Elam or Holley, they'll still need to develop them and that could take time.

 

[Bluto]

Did Springman just vanish into thin air?

 

[Graybeard52]

Montelus would be interesting, even though you don't see as many CFB OL switching to DL as you do DL to OL. He's not too tall and has good size though.

I don't see anyone on the roster or among current commits that has the size profile of a 3-4 NT. While we don't run a true 3-4 but more of a hybrid, I'd say our current and immediate future on the DL reads more 4-3. JMO.

 

[Rack Em]

I heard BK and Diaco were looking through the "Hey Fat ***" thread started by BobD for NG prospects

 

[BGIF]

Did Springman just vanish into thin air?

No, he's out for the season with a knee injury.

 

[TheChosen1]

Springman and Jarron Jones will share time.

 

[NDdomer2]

nix doesn't need "replaced". did we replace floyd? eifert? nope but we have others step in and make it their own.

we have plenty of bodies going into next year and we aren't done recruiting.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm over the 3-4 once Nix leaves. We have better personnel for a 4-3. Seems like plugging a square peg into a round hole.

But i'm guessing that they will use the Springman/Jones lineup at nose and we will play completely outside of our talent groupings.

 

[Irishfan33]

I'm over the 3-4 once Nix leaves. We have better personnel for a 4-3. Seems like plugging a square peg into a round hole.

But i'm guessing that they will use the Springman/Jones lineup at nose and we will play completely outside of our talent groupings.

I agree, i think our defense would be better in a 4-3 anyway.
Tuitt(if he comes back)Springman,jones,day,a few coming aswell will plug the middle....

We have plenty of talent at DE and OLB.. thin at MLB but we have plenty of athletes that could develop into really good MLB

 

[kmoose]

I agree, i think our defense would be better in a 4-3 anyway.
Tuitt(if he comes back)Springman,jones,day,a few coming aswell will plug the middle....

We have plenty of talent at DE and OLB.. thin at MLB but we have plenty of athletes that could develop into really good MLB

The problem with this is that a 4-3 requires a really good MLB, to work at a high level. ND does NOT have a really good MLB, and it doesn't look like anyone currently on the roster is likely to develop into one, by next season. I just don't see that switch happening, or being a positive if it does.

 

[Brooklyn]

I would too move to a 4-3.

RE - Ishaq Williams / Anthony Rabasa / Romeo Okwara / Jonathan Bonner
UT - Sheldon Day / Jay Hayes / Chase Hounshell
NT - Tony Springmann / Jarron Jones / Matt Dickerson
LE - Stephon Tuitt / Isaac Rochell / Andrew Trumbetti / Jacob Matuska / Grant Blankenship

WLB - Jaylon Smith / Joe Schmidt / John Turner
MLB - Jarrett Grace / Kendall Moore / Michael Deeb / Greer Martini
SLB - Ben Councell / Doug Randolph / Richard Yeargin III

Looks much better with our personnel I think than a 3-4 where our DEs have to get bigger and we dont have a true NG.

 

[Brooklyn]

The problem with this is that a 4-3 requires a really good MLB, to work at a high level. ND does NOT have a really good MLB, and it doesn't look like anyone currently on the roster is likely to develop into one, by next season. I just don't see that switch happening, or being a positive if it does.

As a Giants fan I agree that a MLB is very necessary(look at what Beason did for us when he came in), but you don't need an elite one. Grace is more than capable to be the guy. He started stepping up before his injury.

Btw a big key to a 3-4 defense is having that nose guard that commands double teams. I'd say we're much closer at MLB than at NG.

 

[kmoose]

As a Giants fan I agree that a MLB is very necessary(look at what Beason did for us when he came in), but you don't need an elite one. Grace is more than capable to be the guy. He started stepping up before his injury.

Btw a big key to a 3-4 defense is having that nose guard that commands double teams. I'd say we're much closer at MLB than at NG.

Grace wasn't playing all that well. Just take a look back at all of the post game threads, from even before Grace was injured; the ILB play was horrible in those games. And......... who says that Grace comes back from a season ending injury on the same trajectory as he was, before?

Sheldon Day played some interior DL last year, and this year, I think? I'm not saying that he can be a dominant NG, but he would probably be just as good a NG, as Grace would be, a MLB.

 

[NDPhilly]

Tuitt would have to lose a significant amount of weight to be a DE in a 4-3. He is built like a DT

 

[Irishfan33]

Tuitt would have to lose a significant amount of weight to be a DE in a 4-3. He is built like a DT

Yup, in the 4-3 if he comes back next year he's going right in the middle.

 

[Ironman8]

Yup, in the 4-3 if he comes back next year he's going right in the middle.

I doubt our pitch to keep Tuitt next year will be: "Hey I know you are going for the all time ND lead in sacks, and are most impactful on the game dominating OTs with your insane blend of speed and power (i.e. USC game), but if you come back we will plug you in the middle of our D to face constant double and triple teams and effectively mitigate your pass rushing skills".

I guess I am really confused over the huge 3-4, 4-3 debate and craze over the lack of a massive NG next year. Nix's don't grow on trees, guys like that are really, really rare. There is a reason he is projected to go so high in the draft.

Further, how many times are we ever in a true 3-4 alignment? Are we watching the same games. A majority of the time we have 4 guys on the line, with our "CAT" playing down on the line of scrimmage to the field side and Tuitt playing into the boundary. Sometimes they flip (I am assuming based on matchups or scheme defense), but from what I have seen we are very rarely in a true 3-4 with Nix lined up directly over the center. He is usually in the C-G gap occupying two OL.

Fast forward to next year, and we have two 6'5 / 6'6 space eaters that can do that exact thing, albeit with obviously less of the pass rush that Nix can generate. Hopefully we can make up for that lack of pass rush with improved LB play, both inside with Grace, Schmidt, Deeb, Randolph, Moore etc and on the outside with Jaylon, Councell, Okwara, and Ishaq. I also see Trumbetti seeing the field early, possibly to rush the passer.

Obviously we lose a lot if Nix and Tuitt leave. You just have to hope in the player development of the guys we have and are bringing in the system will push guys like Springman, Jones, Rochell, etc to be more impactful than some believe they will or can be.

 

[ResLife Hero]

My concern with the 4-3 is that we become much more predictable in passing situations. In a 3-4, even if you're just going to rush 4, the offense has to check 4 separate options at the line. In a 4-3, you generally know who the 4th rusher will be unless we're going to be dropping DEs into coverage which I'm not a fan of.

I say stick with the 3-4. We've had guys other than Nix prove serviceable at the NG position (Cwynar and Kona), and they weren't his size.

 

[Brooklyn]

Grace wasn't playing all that well. Just take a look back at all of the post game threads, from even before Grace was injured; the ILB play was horrible in those games. And......... who says that Grace comes back from a season ending injury on the same trajectory as he was, before?

Sheldon Day played some interior DL last year, and this year, I think? I'm not saying that he can be a dominant NG, but he would probably be just as good a NG, as Grace would be, a MLB.

Grace started to come on a lot more. He wasnt doing well early in the season I agree. Thats a good point about his injury. Still playing as much as he did this year should give him some confidence and more of understanding of the position to come back stronger and better.

Im fine with Sheldon on the interior as an UT in a 4-3 and I want him there in passrushing sets in a 3-4 as a NG. With that said Day doesnt have the frame to be a full time NG and we have no one with the size for that position. I think it would be a mistake to go into a 3-4 defense with no NG and questionable LBs, since thats supposed to be the strengths of the 3-4. The 4-3 is supposed to be Dline and MLB, which we are okay with.

 

[Brooklyn]

Tuitt would have to lose a significant amount of weight to be a DE in a 4-3. He is built like a DT

Tuitt wouldn't be best used on the inside. He's a DE in either system and sure he has to lose his extra weight he gained this year, but if he comes back to 2 years ago shape he can play 4-3 LE at 300 lbs.

 

[DillonHall]

My concern with the 4-3 is that we become much more predictable in passing situations. In a 3-4, even if you're just going to rush 4, the offense has to check 4 separate options at the line. In a 4-3, you generally know who the 4th rusher will be unless we're going to be dropping DEs into coverage which I'm not a fan of.

I say stick with the 3-4. We've had guys other than Nix prove serviceable at the NG position (Cwynar and Kona), and they weren't his size.

It's not like we've been confusing too many offenses with our current "3-4"

 

[ResLife Hero]

It's not like we've been confusing too many offenses with our current "3-4"

Well, I didn't say we were doing it right, but that's how it's supposed to work. I agree though that we haven't been able to capitalize on the flexibility our scheme should provide.

 

[pkt77242]

I doubt our pitch to keep Tuitt next year will be: "Hey I know you are going for the all time ND lead in sacks, and are most impactful on the game dominating OTs with your insane blend of speed and power (i.e. USC game), but if you come back we will plug you in the middle of our D to face constant double and triple teams and effectively mitigate your pass rushing skills".

I guess I am really confused over the huge 3-4, 4-3 debate and craze over the lack of a massive NG next year. Nix's don't grow on trees, guys like that are really, really rare. There is a reason he is projected to go so high in the draft.

Further, how many times are we ever in a true 3-4 alignment? Are we watching the same games. A majority of the time we have 4 guys on the line, with our "CAT" playing down on the line of scrimmage to the field side and Tuitt playing into the boundary. Sometimes they flip (I am assuming based on matchups or scheme defense), but from what I have seen we are very rarely in a true 3-4 with Nix lined up directly over the center. He is usually in the C-G gap occupying two OL.

Fast forward to next year, and we have two 6'5 / 6'6 space eaters that can do that exact thing, albeit with obviously less of the pass rush that Nix can generate. Hopefully we can make up for that lack of pass rush with improved LB play, both inside with Grace, Schmidt, Deeb, Randolph, Moore etc and on the outside with Jaylon, Councell, Okwara, and Ishaq. I also see Trumbetti seeing the field early, possibly to rush the passer.

Obviously we lose a lot if Nix and Tuitt leave. You just have to hope in the player development of the guys we have and are bringing in the system will push guys like Springman, Jones, Rochell, etc to be more impactful than some believe they will or can be.

First off I would disagree the bolded, while Springman and Jones might be big they can not be eat up space the way that Nix does in the run game. Neither one is anywhere near that good. I think the best bet is that one or both turns into Cwynar. Also the 4-3 is different from what we play in that we wouldn't need two ILBs on the field which seems to be our weakness next year. Also there have been many good pass rushing DT's so I don't know why you think that Tuitt couldn't dominate from there, and by showing that he can play 4-3 DT and 3-4 DE he could open himself up to even more teams wanting to pick him do to his versatility (yes I know that he will be a high pick but as a 3-4 DE he is basically cutting off half of the teams from picking him).

 

[Ironman8]

We played the 3-4 before Nix turned into a potential top 10 pick. If you can all recall, there was a time when we didn't know if we could get 20 meaningful snaps from Nix in a game, let alone rely on him as our anchor on the DL.

My ultimate point is that I just don't think it will or should happen that we would change our defensive philosophy and mitigate the growth and scheme learnings of our entire defense because we lose one player. Attrition and player loss happens at a high level in CFB. Changing schemes and philosophies constantly only compounds the problems those losses present, or do you guys not remember the constant confusion and defensive ineptitude caused by the Tenute / Corwin Brown scheme battles.

 

[pkt77242]

We played the 3-4 before Nix turned into a potential top 10 pick. If you can all recall, there was a time when we didn't know if we could get 20 meaningful snaps from Nix in a game, let alone rely on him as our anchor on the DL.

My ultimate point is that I just don't think it will or should happen that we would change our defensive philosophy and mitigate the growth and scheme learnings of our entire defense because we lose one player. Attrition and player loss happens at a high level in CFB. Changing schemes and philosophies constantly only compounds the problems those losses present, or do you guys not remember the constant confusion and defensive ineptitude caused by the Tenute / Corwin Brown scheme battles.

I do remember that we played a 3-4 before Nix (I brought Cwynar in my post for a reason) and I would say that our D didn't become dominant till we had Nix, Tuitt and Manti. A 3-4 defense really needs a space eating NG and ILBs that can finish the play. Next year we will struggle with both. I think our current roster would be more effective in the 4-3 over the 3-4 unless we get some late surprises in recruiting (NG, ILB).

 

[PLACforever]

Y! SPORTS

 

[Crazy Balki]

Did Springman just vanish into thin air?

Springmann is out for the year. I like him as a NMI guy, but I'm not sure he'll suffice as the starting Nose.