One Stop Rumors Thread?

[T-Boone]

I'd be fine with him shutting it down unless we make the top 4. At which time bring him back in.
The team should be able to do its part to achieve that without him.

 

[T-Boone]

He's the most talented, not the greatest.

Who is?

 

[EvilleIrish]

Big if true

What am I missing here? Message isn’t showing up on my phone

 

[GATTACA!]

What am I missing here? Message isn’t showing up on my phone

That was the joke.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

What am I missing here? Message isn’t showing up on my phone

It was a joke, as the post only contained an ellipsis.

 

[GATTACA!]

It was a joke, as the post only contained an ellipsis.

Big if true

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

If we make it that far with out him IMO than we don’t need him then. If you quit you are not welcome back. Matter of fact screw you.

And if he does do quit I hope see that and question him on that at the combine.

I sure hope he shows the player he has been the last 2.5 years and shows the reasons he chose ND in the first place.

This is a really poor take.

1) If it's a non playoff game, it's essentially an exhibition game. And you want the kid to gamble on $34 million (5th pick overall) for that? Screw you too, bud.

2) The NFL has shown us they don't care about opt outs in the draft. Won't affect him.

3) This isn't quitting. This is weighing the risk/ reward of a kid potentially being a top 5/ top 10 NFL draft pick versus playing safety for ND in a meaningless bowl game.

 

[IrishLax]

The problem with the "should a healthy player sit out to protect draft value" question is that it's an incredibly slippery slope. For example, Mayer will be draft eligible next year and the top TE prospect. Should he sit the whole year to protect his value? Should he stop playing as soon as ND has their first loss? What about their second?

If Hamilton didn't have a (reportedly very minor) injury in the last game people would've thought it INSANE for him -- as a captain -- to just up and quit on the team. Why has that calculus changed a week from now if he's 100% healthy? Because his injury looked scary on TV?

It's also just 100% assumed by some that he is an absolute lock to be a Top 5 pick and I don't think that's the case. I think he's a lock to be a 1st round pick, but the difference between 5th and 15th is huge. Does the calculus change if he can improve his stock by returning and playing well? What if he can only hurt his stock by playing more? All of these are tough questions. I think that the very self-interested, risk averse answer (and what all agents who want their paycheck will suggest) is that players should opt out of college football as soon as they think they've established their draft value -- injury or no injury. Taken to its logical conclusion, this is self-defeating because players aren't out there "just" to get to the NFL... they're also playing because they enjoy it, are competitors who want to win, etc. Every person is in a different situation.

 

[Irishize]

If Hamilton shuts it down he will be giving up the following:

Possible All-American status (pretty likely if he finishes season but no guarantee)
Possible CFB HOF inductee (I believe you have to be a consensus All-American to qualify)
Possible Jim Thorpe Award winner
Possible Ronnie Lott Award winner
Possible NY6 Bowl

I think after seeing what Jaylon Smith lost after his severe injury in a meaningless bowl game that KH would be crazy to take a similar risk. I don’t think his focus is all those individual awards BTW just thought it interesting

LAX makes a good point though. At what point does a player shut it down when he knows he’s a first rounder? There was no indication KH had any concern going into the season b/c he’s played like his hair was on fire. So maybe he finishes out the regular season and opts out of the bowl?

 

[Rogue219]

Should they lose to UNC tomorrow night, I don't think there is a question at that point. The team has an 8-11% chance right now to make the playoff. In two weeks maybe they have a better shot, but either way that's the "we" part as opposed to "me". John Calipari often breaks this down simply for his guys. What are the reasons to come back?

Kyle should be getting the best possible medical opinion and as much outside input as possible. I've read in some instances he's projected as high as second overall. That's nothing to mess with.

He's a team guy and if the team keeps winning, if the risk of him playing is low to none, I'm guessing he's going to be out there. A loss tomorrow night, however, I think he'd have to consider his options at that point.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

If Hamilton shuts it down he will be giving up the following:

Possible All-American status (pretty likely if he finishes season but no guarantee)
Possible CFB HOF inductee (I believe you have to be a consensus All-American to qualify)
Possible Jim Thorpe Award winner
Possible Ronnie Lott Award winner
Possible NY6 Bowl

I think after seeing what Jaylon Smith lost after his severe injury in a meaningless bowl game that KH would be crazy to take a similar risk. I don’t think his focus is all those individual awards BTW just thought it interesting

LAX makes a good point though. At what point does a player shut it down when he knows he’s a first rounder? There was no indication KH had any concern going into the season b/c he’s played like his hair was on fire. So maybe he finishes out the regular season and opts out of the bowl?

More importantly than all of that stuff, will he be giving up eligibility for IE's "Notre Dame Man" title?

 

[Wild Bill]

This is a really poor take.

1) If it's a non playoff game, it's essentially an exhibition game. And you want the kid to gamble on $34 million (5th pick overall) for that? Screw you too, bud.

2) The NFL has shown us they don't care about opt outs in the draft. Won't affect him.

3) This isn't quitting. This is weighing the risk/ reward of a kid potentially being a top 5/ top 10 NFL draft pick versus playing safety for ND in a meaningless bowl game.

Literally every game they play is an exhibition game. Like Lax pointed out, should Mayer play at all next year? If he knows he's going to destroy the combine and teams simply do not care, what's the point?

I think this is something some teams will look at when assessing the character of a player. Each situation may be slightly different but they'd be foolish to invest a high pick and millions of dollars without assessing character and this is part of the assessment. There aren't many players in the league who are considered great that are not obsessively competitive. They want to play, they want to compete and they want to win. Tom Brady is probably the best example but there are several others. Jerry Rice comes to mind. These guys are not the greatest b/c they are physically more gifted. They're the greatest b/c they are insane and will do anything to play/win, in addition to being physically gifted.

If Hamilton or any other player has an increased risk of being re-injured or increasing the severity of the injury, they should sit. In fact, I'm not sure they have a decision to make - the medical/coaching staff will probably make the decision for them. Otherwise, the risk of career altering injury is negligible. This is a reward assessment more than a risk/reward assessment - have I done enough to get my reward? I understand why a player would think it's in his best interest to sit. They're being told to sit b/c it's the best move if they want to maximize individual value. Will that type of decision making change once they are drafted? Can you win a lot of games with a team full of guys interested maximizing their value? I really don't know but it's probably something owners/GMs/coaches may have to consider moving forward.

 

[DONTH8]

The problem with the "should a healthy player sit out to protect draft value" question is that it's an incredibly slippery slope. For example, Mayer will be draft eligible next year and the top TE prospect. Should he sit the whole year to protect his value? Should he stop playing as soon as ND has their first loss? What about their second?

It's interesting you mention this. Pete posted an article on The Athletic where he talks abotua time that a UTV accident occured with Michael that required some stitches and different things, but could have broken bones, ligaments, or other issues that would have a big impact on his athleticism. If there is one guy now that I could see being most cognizant and worried, Michael would seem to be that guy. Not saying that he would sit out to avoid issues, just that he probably has had to think about how fast things can change. (Pete, if you read this. I loved the article.)

Also, speaking of Michael, where the heck has the Halloween theme been after every catch this year?? If they don't bring that back this weekend of all weekends, I will be very disappointed.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

This is a really poor take.

1) If it's a non playoff game, it's essentially an exhibition game. And you want the kid to gamble on $34 million (5th pick overall) for that? Screw you too, bud.

2) The NFL has shown us they don't care about opt outs in the draft. Won't affect him.

3) This isn't quitting. This is weighing the risk/ reward of a kid potentially being a top 5/ top 10 NFL draft pick versus playing safety for ND in a meaningless bowl game.

This is my take as well on it as well. His decision while in a mandated pathway to professional football has the weight of millions of dollars depending on a smart decision. I made a similar point about a HS kid making a similar decision with regards to finishing a HS football year considering they had a scholarship offer and making a decision to enroll early, NIL money, and personal development that would enhance both of those OPPORTUNITIES. I dont really see a difference as the pathway to professional football pretty much requires the step into CFB from HS

 

[BabyIrish]

Not to change the subject but is there a reason Dave Clawson isn’t sought more as a head coach and better jobs? The dude has been winning at Wake Forest for a long time. If I had to pick BK’s next head coach from up and comers it’d be 1A Fickel 1B Clawson.

 

[317Irish]

This is my take as well on it as well. His decision while in a mandated pathway to professional football has the weight of millions of dollars depending on a smart decision. I made a similar point about a HS kid making a similar decision with regards to finishing a HS football year considering they had a scholarship offer and making a decision to enroll early, NIL money, and personal development that would enhance both of those OPPORTUNITIES. I dont really see a difference as the pathway to professional football pretty much requires the step into CFB from HS

Exactly. Cack- perhaps we are in the minority here, and it’s not necessarily my main point, but KH should already be making his millions. He’s forced into a 3 year waiting period before coming NFL eligible.
Mayer has an NFL ready body, with NFL level talent. If he wants to sit out next year and give a big middle finger to the NCAA, well then thanks for the two years helping the team Mike, go get that money.

 

[NDPhilly]

Notre Dame is offering these kids free world class education, free housing, free food, elite football coaching, top notch and personalized strength and conditioning, international exposure with a national brand, and access to an incredibly successful alumni base.

Asking a 100% healthy captain to finish a regular season is not a big ask considering the opportunities that the University provides.

 

[IrishLion]

I think Hamilton is too competitive to sit out if he's back to 100%. I want another "Tracked 3/4's of the field while the ball was in the air and grabbed a crazy INT so now I'm ripping my helmet off and staring down the crowd" moment.

 

[Wild Bill]

Exactly. Cack- perhaps we are in the minority here, and it’s not necessarily my main point, but KH should already be making his millions. He’s forced into a 3 year waiting period before coming NFL eligible.
Mayer has an NFL ready body, with NFL level talent. If he wants to sit out next year and give a big middle finger to the NCAA, well then thanks for the two years helping the team Mike, go get that money.

The rule probably saves more players from themselves more often than it holds players back. Mayer has had issues run blocking at this level so I have a hard time believing he'd be starting on an NFL team right now. I think the question is whether the NFL would be able to develop young high level talent better than college. Given the limited roster spots, pressure to win now, and limited practice time/reps available to developmental players, probaby not. NFL teams simply are not built to develop teenagers so these freaks of nature, probably less than .01% of all football players who can somehow play in the NFL before than can legally drink, are probably better off playing at State U and chasing girls. Tough life.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The rule probably saves more players from themselves more often than it holds players back. Mayer has had issues run blocking at this level so I have a hard time believing he'd be starting on an NFL team right now. I think the question is whether the NFL would be able to develop young high level talent better than college. Given the limited roster spots, pressure to win now, and limited practice time/reps available to developmental players, probaby not. NFL teams simply are not built to develop teenagers so these freaks of nature, probably less than .01% of all football players who can somehow play in the NFL before than can legally drink, are probably better off playing at State U and chasing girls. Tough life.

What you are really saying is what we are all saying... CFB IS the NFLs development league. I'd expect give the chance.... many kids would opt into a development league that did not include having to go to college as part of the deal.

 

[notredomer23]

What you are really saying is what we are all saying... CFB IS the NFLs development league. I'd expect give the chance.... many kids would opt into a development league that did not include having to go to college as part of the deal.

I wonder if any other leagues or any other countries have a model for this?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I wonder if any other leagues or any other countries have a model for this?

I'D BE IN FAVOR OF A PROMOTION RELEGATION MODEL AS WELL.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

I'D BE IN FAVOR OF A PROMOTION RELEGATION MODEL AS WELL.

I remember years ago (pre-Kelly) i made a statement regarding this but it wasn't received well, only because Notre Dame wouldn't be in the top league lol

 

[GowerND11]

I'D BE IN FAVOR OF A PROMOTION RELEGATION MODEL AS WELL.

We could already realistically do it with NHL and MLB with the minors in place. Man it would be awesome to see the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs take over for the Pirates...

 

[JurDocDuLac]

I wonder if any other leagues or any other countries have a model for this?

Regarding "a mandated pathway" and "being forced into a 3 year waiting period" maybe look at other professions.
Lawyers have a seven (+) year mandated pathway.
Medical doctors have a ten year (at least) mandated pathway.
Professors at decent universites have a eight year mandated pathway.
CPAs, Nurses, Union jobs, many more….

And almost all students/interns/associates in the professions have little immediate economic opportunity, live poor and get treated like s--- in their mandated pathway.
No free education (rather a life-time debt), no free housing or nutrition programs, no elite coaching (believe me an internship at a top law firm or hospital you are abused, not coached), and definitely no "sitting out" a commitment.

But yeah, I see the point: People like Hamilton are so very special in our society, they deserve a break from that opressive 3 year commitment (I mean "waiting period") of playing school and chasing girls.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Literally every game they play is an exhibition game. Like Lax pointed out, should Mayer play at all next year? If he knows he's going to destroy the combine and teams simply do not care, what's the point?

I think this is something some teams will look at when assessing the character of a player. Each situation may be slightly different but they'd be foolish to invest a high pick and millions of dollars without assessing character and this is part of the assessment. There aren't many players in the league who are considered great that are not obsessively competitive. They want to play, they want to compete and they want to win. Tom Brady is probably the best example but there are several others. Jerry Rice comes to mind. These guys are not the greatest b/c they are physically more gifted. They're the greatest b/c they are insane and will do anything to play/win, in addition to being physically gifted.

If Hamilton or any other player has an increased risk of being re-injured or increasing the severity of the injury, they should sit. In fact, I'm not sure they have a decision to make - the medical/coaching staff will probably make the decision for them. Otherwise, the risk of career altering injury is negligible. This is a reward assessment more than a risk/reward assessment - have I done enough to get my reward? I understand why a player would think it's in his best interest to sit. They're being told to sit b/c it's the best move if they want to maximize individual value. Will that type of decision making change once they are drafted? Can you win a lot of games with a team full of guys interested maximizing their value? I really don't know but it's probably something owners/GMs/coaches may have to consider moving forward.

Short answer...if you're health you should play. The scenario I mentioned was Hamilton being injured or not 100%. Weighing the option of playing vs Stanford or Navy against shutting it down isn't a hard decision if he has a knee injury. And I don't mean a sore knee or a bruise. I mean knee injury.

If ND is in the playoff and Hamilton was healthy, that's a different scenario.

And the point of Mayer playing next year is like any other sport in life: the more you play, the better you get. Yes, he should play.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Notre Dame is offering these kids free world class education, free housing, free food, elite football coaching, top notch and personalized strength and conditioning, international exposure with a national brand, and access to an incredibly successful alumni base.

Asking a 100% healthy captain to finish a regular season is not a big ask considering the opportunities that the University provides.

Key word here being healthy. If he didn't have the knee injury last week and was talking about sitting out the rest of the year for the draft, I'd have a big issue with it. That's not the case, and no one on this board knows the extent of the injury.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Not to change the subject but is there a reason Dave Clawson isn’t sought more as a head coach and better jobs? The dude has been winning at Wake Forest for a long time. If I had to pick BK’s next head coach from up and comers it’d be 1A Fickel 1B Clawson.

If you ask me I think he's a little too old. Dave Aranda, Fickell, and Matt Ruhle would be on my list.

 

[Dizzyphil]

If you ask me I think he's a little too old. Dave Aranda, Fickell, and Matt Ruhle would be on my list.

Aranda is going to LSU..... book it

 

[spoonidentity]

The problem with the "should a healthy player sit out to protect draft value" question is that it's an incredibly slippery slope. For example, Mayer will be draft eligible next year and the top TE prospect. Should he sit the whole year to protect his value? Should he stop playing as soon as ND has their first loss? What about their second?

If Hamilton didn't have a (reportedly very minor) injury in the last game people would've thought it INSANE for him -- as a captain -- to just up and quit on the team. Why has that calculus changed a week from now if he's 100% healthy? Because his injury looked scary on TV?

I just want to point out that I think the injury is worse than what has been reported. Fat pad impingement was given right after the game but the Monday press conference mentioned that he was getting PRP. That's what you would do for a grade 2 or 3 MCL sprain but not for the fat pad. The injury live looked like MCL or meniscus so I think it is actually one of those two injuries and not the impingement.

I for one would be very surprised if he makes it back for anything in the regular season - and that's because of the recovery time. They probably don't want to publicly state the injury so the draft pundits on TV don't have 6 months to talk about " Will KH he the same player, etc."

Teams will know the injury at the combine but it won't matter by that point.