Oh Boy......

njuneardave

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why? nothing would've happened if he said he believed in evolution... or claimed to be a muslim... but because he believes in Christianity and creationism, he gets blasted? This is outrageous. This kid states that the teacher is in violation of the 1st amendment.... the right of free speech? Well, everyone gets an opinion, but now the ACLU, along with this over-sensitive, media-seeking, dramaqueen kid, is going to fight to take this man's opinion away. It's rediculous. Why is Christianity so offensive to people? How did the proclamation of belief in Noah's Ark, creationism, and the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ offend this kid? What type of mental trauma has he had to endure, suffering through a middle-class lifestyle, laden with people with differing opinions? The whole ordeal is sickening to me b/c a man is being denied his freedom of speech by the ACLU b/c the ACLU hates Christianity.
 
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why? nothing would've happened if he said he believed in evolution... or claimed to be a muslim... but because he believes in Christianity and creationism, he gets blasted? This is outrageous. This kid states that the teacher is in violation of the 1st amendment.... the right of free speech? Well, everyone gets an opinion, but now the ACLU, along with this over-sensitive, media-seeking, dramaqueen kid, is going to fight to take this man's opinion away. It's rediculous. Why is Christianity so offensive to people? How did the proclamation of belief in Noah's Ark, creationism, and the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ offend this kid? What type of mental trauma has he had to endure, suffering through a middle-class lifestyle, laden with people with differing opinions? The whole ordeal is sickening to me b/c a man is being denied his freedom of speech by the ACLU b/c the ACLU hates Christianity.

Because he is saying that the bible is true (does not belong in a public school science class), that dinosaurs were present 8000 years ago ( outright lie-plese, someone tryto defend that, i am begging you......... please plese please....), and that the bible has been proven to be true (which it has not. if anything it has been proven to be a faLse document written by many anonomous authors well after JC was supposed to have died.) There is no historical evidence for the authenticity of the TORAH OR THE NEW TESTAMENT. None. This man is pushing beliefs on students of varying faith in a public school setting. Not a place for it. religion belongs at home. Not in public schools. You want to teach creationism, teach it at a catholic private school. Pay to send your kid to it.

The problem nunjar is that you or anyother Christian dont want to have to explain to your kid why all ( and I mean all) scientific evidence points towards evolution and not creationism. I know, my parents went through it to and i had to explain to them what the evidence was. maybe your kids will one day too.

before anyone else says anything about another competitor to evolution, the theory must hold up to current scientific scrutiny, be able to encompass data from geology, chemistry, physics, dna, mitochondrial dna, zoogeography, fossil record etc.. I guarantee you without wild speculation numerous assumptions and outright lies, creationism based on the bible will not come even a smidge within the realm of being able to explain any of those facts. Hence, in a science class a theory that cannot explain those facts cannot be entertained.

If you want to disprove a theory which is what science is about, then you have to be able to explain the world in a fashion other than the prevailing theory (evolution). as of yet, no other theory comes close to explaing what evolution does.
 
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why?[nothing would've happened if he said he believed in evolution... ( because evolution is a fact) or claimed to be a muslim...i dont know about that one thats stretching it a bit, but because he believes in Christianity and creationism, he gets blasted? this is because this does not belong in the public school setting This is outrageous.Outrageous is these outright lies he is telling kids in a science class This kid states that the teacher is in violation of the 1st amendment.... the right of free speech?Agree with that But the teacher is only allowed to teach approved ciricula. If he is guilty of anyhting it is not sticking to his sylabus Well, everyone gets an opinion not a teacher in public school and you cettainly cant expound on it, but now the ACLU, along with this over-sensitive, media-seeking, dramaqueen kid you know him so well, is going to fight to take this man's opinion away once again he is a public school teacher. your opinions are gone once you step inside the classroom door. It's rediculous. Why is Christianity so offensive to people? Its not offensive. Christianity is a relic based on outdated illogical beliefs. These beliefs are not shared by most people in America these days./B] How did the proclamation of belief in Noah's Ark, creationism, and the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ offend this kid? because its false and does not belong in the public school science class What type of mental trauma has he had to endure, suffering through a middle-class lifestyle, laden with people with differing opinions? And you as well? The whole ordeal is sickening to me b/c a man is being denied his freedom of speech by the ACLU b/c the ACLU hates Christianity No they hat bigots and igonorance. I will not try to defend the ACLU beacuse they are the worst about what is wrong with the leagal system. They simply exploit it and move from topic to topic. But the kid has the right to get approved school lessons from an unopiniated teacher sticking to the approved ciricula. The teacher loses his opinion once he sets foot on school grounds. Plus creationism is not testable and is not fact. see post below.
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njuneardave

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wow, where to start....

there are many documents and scientific research that support the truth of the Bible. Dead Sea Scrolls is one of the more popular discoveries that verifies Biblical scripture. There is much historical evidence of the New Testament... your statement is invalid -- you should research your points before you try to wildly throw incorrect assumptions to back your opinion.

i don't believe that dinosaurs existed 8000 years ago. i disagree with the teacher here.

how can evolution be any more scientifically explained than creationism? how can the big bang theory be explained? where did the two particles that collided come from? evolution can not be seen any more truthful than creationism. I'm STILL looking for a half human half ape... these should surely exist if we have evolved as others say we have. you may believe that you are nothing more than a glorified, upgraded ape, but i happen to disagree. modern society wants us to believe that we are born with ZERO inherent worth, but I see myself as a being created in the image of the Most High God -- born with inherent worth and value. What is all of the scientific information that points to evolution? For every point, there is a counterpoint that points toward creationism. If the two are so hotly debated and closely contested, why is it so unfair to present both sides of the argument? You say that evolution is the course of nature that formed our world b/c nothing else can be proven to be the "best" answer, but that argument is flawed in so many ways. Evolution is not some argument that is completely accurate and flawless, but you refuse to see this. i wish i could write a better retort with some hard facts to show you what i am talking about... with in-depth research, but i am at work and preparing to go on a business trip. hopefully, i can write one up when i get back.

i'll just leave you with this one point: you claim evolution as the "correct" assumption based on the numerous facts that support it, but creationism has an equal number of supporting facts and equal number of inconsistencies, and i completely disagree with your portrayal of your argument since you have only opinion (no facts) to back your argument.
 

cclanofirish

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http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/02/20/taped.teach.ap/index.html

My personal favorite was that this guy has evidence apparently that dinosaurs were on Noahs Ark.


I am actually scared for children's education right now.

There is an easy solution to all of this: Give the kid all the ammo he needs to knock the shit out of this idiots theory.

While I certainly don't buy into all of the evolution theory, this guy is a freaking idiot, and it would be hilarious to hear a kid beat the shit out of his theories.
 

Junkhead

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I'm Catholic, but what bothers me about the supposed "Religious", is the intoleration and outright hostility sometimes shown by them. Religion should bring someone peace, not make them hate everyone who doesn't follow the Bible word for word. Science should not be disproven by religion, they both have their place.
 

cclanofirish

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Because he is saying that the bible is true (does not belong in a public school science class), that dinosaurs were present 8000 years ago ( outright lie-plese, someone tryto defend that, i am begging you......... please plese please....), and that the bible has been proven to be true (which it has not. if anything it has been proven to be a faLse document written by many anonomous authors well after JC was supposed to have died.) There is no historical evidence for the authenticity of the TORAH OR THE NEW TESTAMENT. None. This man is pushing beliefs on students of varying faith in a public school setting. Not a place for it. religion belongs at home. Not in public schools. You want to teach creationism, teach it at a catholic private school. Pay to send your kid to it.

The problem nunjar is that you or anyother Christian dont want to have to explain to your kid why all ( and I mean all) scientific evidence points towards evolution and not creationism. I know, my parents went through it to and i had to explain to them what the evidence was. maybe your kids will one day too.

before anyone else says anything about another competitor to evolution, the theory must hold up to current scientific scrutiny, be able to encompass data from geology, chemistry, physics, dna, mitochondrial dna, zoogeography, fossil record etc.. I guarantee you without wild speculation numerous assumptions and outright lies, creationism based on the bible will not come even a smidge within the realm of being able to explain any of those facts. Hence, in a science class a theory that cannot explain those facts cannot be entertained.

If you want to disprove a theory which is what science is about, then you have to be able to explain the world in a fashion other than the prevailing theory (evolution). as of yet, no other theory comes close to explaing what evolution does.

Onw thing Ive never understood, is why teachers do not have the same free speech rights as all others in society. In my opinion, it should be the school, not the government, that forces him to either stop talking these idiotic ideas, or fire him if he does not comply. Ive never understood why the government should be involved in this particular matter, but should stay out of issues such as flag-burning, and protests.

On the second point underlined; are scientific theories facts until they are disproven, or are they simply judgements by humans on what is observed in the physical world.
 

cclanofirish

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I'm Catholic, but what bothers me about the supposed "Religious", is the intoleration and outright hostility sometimes shown by them. Religion should bring someone peace, not make them hate everyone who doesn't follow the Bible word for word. Science should not be disproven by religion, they both have their place.

Very well put. My own personal feeling is that science helps explain, in limited ways, what is happening in our world, but religion is the only force that can explain why and how our world came to be.
 

cclanofirish

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Hey, Satans Little Helper

Youre disrespecting the family - everybody fuckin knows that 2 people was dropped in a fuckin forrest with an apple tree and wore leaves over their junk.

This is very upsetting to me, I gotta go grab a capicola at Vitos deli or im gonna collapse for the love of christ......

Dude, may I suggest you shut the **** up. The grown ups are talking.
 

njuneardave

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I'm Catholic, but what bothers me about the supposed "Religious", is the intoleration and outright hostility sometimes shown by them. Religion should bring someone peace, not make them hate everyone who doesn't follow the Bible word for word. Science should not be disproven by religion, they both have their place.



i dont know if this was directed at me or not, but i will retort:


i have no intoleration for others that don't believe the same as i do. i DO have intoleration for the incarceration of Christian teachings. Why is it that this teacher gets lambasted for expressing his scientific theory? I don't hate people who aren't Christians at all. There IS intolerance toward unbelievers in Christianity, but it is completely unbiblical in every sense. There is nothing wrong with taking a stance when there is injustice toward another Christian and then stating the source of the injustice itself. So, if you think I am intolerant, you have me completely wrong. But I do think that this situation is an injustice in itself, and I won't stand by simply watching the thing unfold. It IS my duty to let my voice be heard if something like this happens.
 
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Onw thing Ive never understood, is why teachers do not have the same free speech rights as all others in society. In my opinion, it should be the school, not the government, that forces him to either stop talking these idiotic ideas, or fire him if he does not comply. Ive never understood why the government should be involved in this particular matter, but should stay out of issues such as flag-burning, and protests.

On the second point underlined; are scientific theories facts until they are disproven, or are they simply judgements by humans on what is observed in the physical world.

Scientific theories are based on observed phenomenon. ( i know that might be hard for you zealots to grasp) The observed phenomenon are measured categorized, whatever and then compiled to disprove a hypothesis generated prior to the collection of data. The aim of science is to disprove a hypothesis. The thing about the theory of evolution is that no one has yet been able to disprove it. It explains so much about our natural world including data from geology (plate techtonics, age of rocks, dinosaurs in rocks from well before 65,000,000 years ago, not 8,000), zoogeography ( why animals are where they are and their environments past and present) the location of environments ( deserts, tropical rainforests, boreal, tundra etc..), ocenanogrpahy, meteorology.. I mean even mathimatics have been used in the theory of evolution and not one competeing theory has been able to show so much of our natural wourld as being true like evolution (and that includes religion on whole and the intelligent design, irreducible complexity etc.... crowd. ).

What he did was interject unapproved ciricula to students. He is a state employee and those approved ciricula are voted on every two-three years by the school board. What he did was nothing less than saying 2+2=5. Can anyone here disprove 2+2=5? I can.


The problem here is that evolution rejects everything about the causation ofthe world and humans and is the last bastion for non-believers to cling to. Should you or any other religous person believe the theory of evolution, that wouldbe akin to joining in Stan's army because it proves so much of your holy book is false. I dont think anyone here will argue with that. That is why you feel the way you do about teaching religous content in a class based on fact. What he did was lie to childeren IMO. Not yours obviously. The point is again is that it is not a place for that type of speech. This is not a free speech issue. He is a governemnt employee and nknows damn well what he is and is not allowed to say or day as such. They make it very clear. Especially in the syllabus.

Religion is not testable there fore it has no place in a science class which operates on testable observations. . THat is not arguable. If you want to discuss creationism, enroll your child in a philosophy course or enroll him in the bible schools. There are plenty enough of them out there.
 
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wow, where to start....

there are many documents and scientific research that support the truth of the Bible. Dead Sea Scrolls is one of the more popular discoveries that verifies Biblical scripture.

The dead sea scrolls cause many problems for your theory of the bible. For one they were just copies of gosphels left out of the canonical bible and were written well after JC and the other approved new testaments. That proves nothing.

There is much historical evidence of the New Testament... your statement is invalid -- you should research your points before you try to wildly throw incorrect assumptions to back your opinion. Please by all means show me this evidence. I love evidence. I crave it. The shroud of turin- fake. The relics of the cross-fake. The spear of destiny-fake. Any others?

i don't believe that dinosaurs existed 8000 years ago. i disagree with the teacher here.
good with you on this but accepting this staement it disproves the timeline of the bible and many creationist theories. Are you sure you want to accept thsi?

how can evolution be any more scientifically explained than creationism?
Wow who taught you science?
how can the big bang theory be explained? Read up on Einstein, Newton, aand String theory and you will learn a lot about the big bang.

where did the two particles that collided come from?See above statement. evolution can not be seen any more truthful than creationism. Occams razor please I'm STILL looking for a half human half ape... these should surely exist if we have evolved as others say we have.Fossils are the most unreliable form of evidence. You need to look at mitochondiral DNA evidence It clearly shows a lineage between apes to humans and apess to other mammals, maammals to reptiles ans fish, fish to invertabrates, invertebrates to multi celled orgs, multicell orgs to single celled orgas, single celled orgs to chemical compounds. Its called fact. None of which creationism can provide. Fossils are not always preserved and make up very little of the evidence for evolution.
you may believe that you are nothing more than a glorified, upgraded ape, but i happen to disagree. as well as you are entilted too. I just feel you ignore evidence because of what it does to your life.

modern society wants us to believe that we are born with ZERO inherent worth, but I see myself as a being created in the image of the Most High God -- born with inherent worth and value. What is all of the scientific information that points to evolution? You see inherent worth being devalued because some imaginary friend does not exist? WOW. No wonder christians hate everyone.

For every point, there is a counterpoint that points toward creationism. Uh no. ther is not. creationism grasps at straws and only has the tiniest foothold because they claim to know something when they refuse certain evidence, like geological records and mitochondiral dna evidence.

If the two are so hotly debated and closely contested, why is it so unfair to present both sides of the argument?It is unfair because there is not evidecne that creationism is true. It cant be tested. It cannot be disproved hence why every one clings to self-evidence which is the worst argument to base a postulate on.

You say that evolution is the course of nature that formed our world b/c nothing else can be proven to be the "best" answer, but that argument is flawed in so many ways.Not really. It explains everything. It hasnt be disproven. It is the ultimate argument.

Evolution is not some argument that is completely accurate and flawless, but you refuse to see this. i wish i could write a better retort with some hard facts to show you what i am talking about with in-depth research, but i am at work and preparing to go on a business trip. hopefully, i can write one up when i get back. ... If you had hard facts about creationism, i would be able to argue them into the ground. Please by all means come back when you have it.

i'll just leave you with this one point: you claim evolution as the "correct" assumption based on the numerous facts that support it, but creationism has an equal number of supporting facts and equal number of inconsistencies, and i completely disagree with your portrayal of your argument since you have only opinion (no facts) to back your argument.Once again provide them. i have spent half of my life disporving creationism and all its tenets. I have plenty of reasons why all religions are false. hence all that comes with their tenets such as creation.
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There is an easy solution to all of this: Give the kid all the ammo he needs to knock the shit out of this idiots theory.

While I certainly don't buy into all of the evolution theory, this guy is a freaking idiot, and it would be hilarious to hear a kid beat the shit out of his theories.

See man, you cant just pick and choose what you like. The theory is based on congruent and complimentary evidence provided and collected over a very, very long time. You cant cherrypick stuff like you can with the bible. Science does not work like that.
 
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TexasDomer

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FWIW, Creationism isn't really science, nor does the idea of God creating the Universe ex nihilo have to be at odds with evolution.

Creationism isn't science because science requires the ability to be able to experiment and test hypotheses according to Aristotle's good ol' scientific method. I have yet to find any scientist who can replicate the creation of matter from nothing.

That said, there are legitimate scientists who, while believing in natural selection, believe that some of Darwin's theories cannot explain all the variation in species and attributes that evolve over time. From universities like Cambridge, Chicago and elsewhere. Darwin's theories are not yet considered laws, and as such can legitimately be questioned and challenged.

A professor at Notre Dame in the early 20th Century (and a priest, no less, Fr. Zahm) wrote a very interesting paper ("Evolution and Dogma") on how the idea of a Divinely created universe doesn't HAVE to be at odds with the idea of evolution.
 
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Very well put. My own personal feeling is that science helps explain, in limited ways, what is happening in our world, but religion is the only force that can explain why and how our world came to be.

CHERRY PICKER> Science is not to be picked and chosen between. The evidence is the evidence. god dammit what is so hard about this to understand and accept. Either you accept the right way of analyzing the evidence or dont do it at all.
 
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FWIW, Creationism isn't really science, nor does the idea of God creating the Universe ex nihilo have to be at odds with evolution.

Creationism isn't science because science requires the ability to be able to experiment and test hypotheses according to Aristotle's good ol' scientific method. I have yet to find any scientist who can replicate the creation of matter from nothing.

That said, there are legitimate scientists who, while believing in natural selection, believe that some of Darwin's theories cannot explain all the variation in species and attributes that evolve over time. From universities like Cambridge, Chicago and elsewhere. Darwin's theories are not yet considered laws, and as such can legitimately be questioned and challenged.

A professor at Notre Dame in the early 20th Century (and a priest, no less, Fr. Zahm) wrote a very interesting paper ("Evolution and Dogma") on how the idea of a Divinely created universe doesn't HAVE to be at odds with the idea of evolution.


Texas Domer. I appreciate the post. String theory allows for matter to move from one dimension to another therby actually leaving this dimension and appearing in another. ie... matter is observed to be destroyed and does not appear else where in our own observable dimension. This is highly speculative but allowable by mathematics and current physical knowledge and has been observed in a few small scale projects. This also causes great problems for the big bang theory which i have some reservations bout as well. The universe is expanding from a common area but not necessarily a single point of infinite mass and temperature in an infinitely small area.
 

GoshenGipper

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Because he is saying that the bible is true (does not belong in a public school science class),

Yeah, that's a lot different then my Chemistry teacher proclaiming that the Big Bang theory is a proven fact and then going on to say that were're all aliens and we just don't know it because we came from bacteria off of an asteroid that collided with Earth. He wasn't stating it as an opinion though, he was acting like it was fact, and this wasin a public school system too. But then he got really sick and he couldn't teach for a very long time shortly after that incident. I've never been so happy for a teacher switch. His replacement was girl that just graduated from MSU and she was also a track coach. Plus since the other guy was also my SRT/Homeroom teacher she took that position too. We had the best stinking SRT class in the whole school. We watched movies, played trivia, played Xbox and PS2, played euchre, and caught live bats. you know all the normal stuff.
 
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TexasDomer

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The Bible as truth is an interesting topic. Christians believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but that pertains to it as a revelation of God and Christ. I guess some go further and see it as inerrant in terms of its depiction of the creation of the universe, as if Genesis is literally true, but that's got issues because of the two different stories of Adam and Eve (from the "Jahwist" and "Elohist" sources).

I tend to fall into the camp that the inerrancy in it relates to its teachings of the covenants God has made with man over the centuries, how man separated himself from God by pride and trying to be God-like, how God sent His Son to die as expiation for this and to give us the chance to be in communion with God again. Our challenge/problem is how to put this into practice.
 
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Yeah, that's a lot different then my Chemistry teacher proclaiming that the Big Bang theory is a proven fact and then going on to say that were're all aliens and we just don't know it because we came from bacteria off of an asteroid that collided with Earth. He wasn't stating it as an opinion though, he was acting like it was fact, and this wasin a public school system too. But then he got really sick and he couldn't teach for a very long time shortly after that incident. I've never been so happy for a teacher switch. His replacement was girl that just graduated from MSU and she was also a track coach. Plus since the other guy was also my SRT/Homeroom teacher she took that position too. We had the best stinking SRT class in the whole school. We watched movies, played trivia, played Xbox and PS2, played euchre, and caught live bats. you know all the normal stuff.

That was not right either. i am not saying there arent forums for discussion. But creationism has no place in a science class period. Especially a public shool one.
Iam curious though, you played xbox/ps2 in chemistry class? I dont know what SRT is.
 

GoshenGipper

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That was not right either. i am not saying there arent forums for discussion. But creationism has no place in a science class period. Especially a public shool one.
Iam curious though, you played xbox/ps2 in chemistry class? I dont know what SRT is.

No we played Xbox, etc. in SRT. SRT is basically like homeroom or studyhall.
 
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The Bible as truth is an interesting topic. Christians believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but that pertains to it as a revelation of God and Christ. I guess some go further and see it as inerrant in terms of its depiction of the creation of the universe, as if Genesis is literally true, but that's got issues because of the two different stories of Adam and Eve (from the "Jahwist" and "Elohist" sources).

I tend to fall into the camp that the inerrancy in it relates to its teachings of the covenants God has made with man over the centuries, how man separated himself from God by pride and trying to be God-like, how God sent His Son to die as expiation for this and to give us the chance to be in communion with God again. Our challenge/problem is how to put this into practice.

I see this above statement as the evolution of Christian dogmatic practice insitu. There are more contradictions in the bible than just those two.
 
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No we played Xbox, etc. in SRT. SRT is basically like homeroom or studyhall.

wow. I am older than yall evidently. Our study hall meant we could leave the room if we wanted to, we just had to be quiet. So if we werent there then we couldnt make any noise and the teacher was cool. We would leave campus and f around for the whole hour. No problems.
 
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TexasDomer

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GD,

Doctrine can develop over time, but doctrines don't develop in contradictory directions. Dogmas don't change. Catholicism, itself, has never dogmatically stated a 7 day creation. It believes God created the universe ex nihilo, but hasn't spoken dogmatically on the how of it. Catholics of good faith can hold different views on it.

Some other Non-Catholic Christians may take as dogma a belief in a seven day creation and rejection of evolution, but that's a different story. Christianity isn't monolithic on this stuff (or on sola scriptura, the nature of justification, Sacraments, etc.).
 
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GD,

Doctrine can develop over time, but doctrines don't develop in contradictory directions. Dogmas don't change. Catholicism, itself, has never dogmatically stated a 7 day creation. It believes God created the universe ex nihilo, but hasn't spoken dogmatically on the how of it. Catholics of good faith can hold different views on it.

Some other Non-Catholic Christians may take as dogma a belief in a seven day creation and rejection of evolution, but that's a different story. Christianity isn't monolithic on this stuff (or on sola scriptura, the nature of justification, Sacraments, etc.).

dogma ( from merriam-webster
One entry found for dogma.


Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem -- more at DECENT
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

How does doctrine and dogma differ? You are splitting hairs IMO.
 
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dogma ( from merriam-webster
One entry found for dogma.


Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem -- more at DECENT
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

How does doctrine and dogma differ? You are splitting hairs IMO.

The bible says explicitly on the seventh day god rested. Do you ignore that or do you not put much faith in it as being true? I just dont understand the logic behind following such contradictory beliefs.
 

stonebreakerwasgod

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I'm Catholic, but what bothers me about the supposed "Religious", is the intoleration and outright hostility sometimes shown by them. Religion should bring someone peace, not make them hate everyone who doesn't follow the Bible word for word. Science should not be disproven by religion, they both have their place.

I think you are confusing my church (catholicism) with the fanatical muslim one. Never once have I heard anything remotely resembling hate come from one gospel or homily. What is taught is love, tolerance (or you reading this gd1977??), and helping others. The church may not agree with society on every issue (as every church has the right to form it's own dogma), but I fail to see hatred toward anyone. Personally, I don't care if people don't like what the church says anyway, it's not supposed to be conformist!
 

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Yeah, that's a lot different then my Chemistry teacher proclaiming that the Big Bang theory is a proven fact and then going on to say that were're all aliens and we just don't know it because we came from bacteria off of an asteroid that collided with Earth. He wasn't stating it as an opinion though, he was acting like it was fact, and this wasin a public school system too. But then he got really sick and he couldn't teach for a very long time shortly after that incident. I've never been so happy for a teacher switch. His replacement was girl that just graduated from MSU and she was also a track coach. Plus since the other guy was also my SRT/Homeroom teacher she took that position too. We had the best stinking SRT class in the whole school. We watched movies, played trivia, played Xbox and PS2, played euchre, and caught live bats. you know all the normal stuff.

Damn, I went to the wrong school where they made me work in every class. Judging from what I see/hear today, teachers no longer want to teach. It's more about babysitting, or like the guy above, indoctrinating students into his own wacky beliefs. Shame on those teachers!
 

cclanofirish

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Scientific theories are based on observed phenomenon. ( i know that might be hard for you zealots to grasp) The observed phenomenon are measured categorized, whatever and then compiled to disprove a hypothesis generated prior to the collection of data. The aim of science is to disprove a hypothesis. The thing about the theory of evolution is that no one has yet been able to disprove it. It explains so much about our natural world including data from geology (plate techtonics, age of rocks, dinosaurs in rocks from well before 65,000,000 years ago, not 8,000), zoogeography ( why animals are where they are and their environments past and present) the location of environments ( deserts, tropical rainforests, boreal, tundra etc..), ocenanogrpahy, meteorology.. I mean even mathimatics have been used in the theory of evolution and not one competeing theory has been able to show so much of our natural wourld as being true like evolution (and that includes religion on whole and the intelligent design, irreducible complexity etc.... crowd. ).
What he did was interject unapproved ciricula to students. He is a state employee and those approved ciricula are voted on every two-three years by the school board. What he did was nothing less than saying 2+2=5. Can anyone here disprove 2+2=5? I can.


The problem here is that evolution rejects everything about the causation ofthe world and humans and is the last bastion for non-believers to cling to. Should you or any other religous person believe the theory of evolution, that wouldbe akin to joining in Stan's army because it proves so much of your holy book is false. I dont think anyone here will argue with that. That is why you feel the way you do about teaching religous content in a class based on fact. What he did was lie to childeren IMO. Not yours obviously. The point is again is that it is not a place for that type of speech. This is not a free speech issue. He is a governemnt employee and nknows damn well what he is and is not allowed to say or day as such. They make it very clear. Especially in the syllabus.

Religion is not testable there fore it has no place in a science class which operates on testable observations. . THat is not arguable. If you want to discuss creationism, enroll your child in a philosophy course or enroll him in the bible schools. There are plenty enough of them out there.



Evolution Info

What have we learned since Charles Darwin's treatise on evolution, Origin of Species, was first published in 1859? In addition to a thorough exploration of the fossil record, a vast amount of other information is readily available. Obviously, the first problem is the lack of the fossil record.

After the fossil record, the second supposed proof of evolution offered by Darwinists is natural selection, which they hoped biologists would confirm. Darwin's idea that the survival of the fittest would explain how species evolved has been relegated to a redundant, self-evident statement. Geneticist Conrad Waddington of Edinburgh University defines the fundamental problem of advocating natural selection as a proof of Darwinism: "Natural selection turns out on closer inspection to be a tautology, a statement of an inevitable although previously unrecognized relation. It states that the fittest individuals in a population ... will leave most offspring" (Bethell, p. 310).
In other words, what are the fittest? Why, those that survive, of course. And what survives? Why, naturally, the fittest. The problem is that circular reasoning doesn't point to any independent criteria that can evaluate whether the theory is true.

Darwin cited an example of the way natural selection was supposed to work: A wolf that had inherited the ability to run especially fast was better equipped to survive. His advantage in outrunning others in the pack when food was scarce meant he could eat better and thus survive longer. Yet the very changes that enabled the wolf to run faster could easily become a hindrance if other modifications of the body did not accompany the increased speed. For example, the additional exertion required to run faster would naturally place an added strain on the animal's heart, and eventually it could drop from a heart attack. The survival of the fittest would require that any biological or anatomical alterations would have to be in harmony and synchronized with other bodily modifications, or the changes would be of no benefit. Natural selection, scientists have found, in reality deals only with the number of species, not the change of the species. It has to do with the survival and not the arrival of the species. Natural selection only preserves existing genetic information (DNA); it doesn't create genetic material that would allow an animal to sprout a new organ, limb or some other anatomical feature.

What about random mutations? Curiously enough, Darwin himself was one of the first to discount beneficial effects from rare changes he noted in species. He did not even include them in his theory. "He did not consider them important," says Maurice Caullery in his book Genetics and Heredity, "because they nearly always represented an obvious disadvantage from the point of view of the struggle for existence; consequently they would most likely be rapidly eliminated in the wild state by the operation of natural selection" (1964, p. 10, emphasis added). In Darwin's lifetime the principles of genetics were not clearly understood. Gregor Mendel had published his findings on genetic principles in 1866, but his work was overlooked at the time. Later, at the beginning of the 20th century, Hugo De Vries rediscovered these principles, which evolutionists quickly seized on to support evolution. Sir Julian Huxley, one of the principal spokesmen for evolutionary theory in the 20th century, commented on the unpredictability of mutations: "Mutation provides the raw material of evolution; it is a random affair and takes place in all directions" (Evolution in Action, 1953, p. 38).

What has almost a century of research discovered? Those mutations are pathological mistakes and not helpful changes in the genetic code. C.P. Martin of McGill University in Montreal wrote, "Mutation is a pathological process which has had little or nothing to do with evolution" ("A Non-Geneticist Looks at Evolution," American Scientist, January 1953, p. 100). Professor Martin's investigations revealed mutations are overwhelmingly negative and never creative. He observed that an apparently beneficial mutation was likely only a correction of a previously deleterious one, similar to “punching a man with a dislocated shoulder and inadvertently putting it back into place.” Science writer Milton explains the problem: "The results of such copying errors are tragically familiar. In body cells, faulty replication shows itself as cancer." (Richard Milton, Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, 1997, p. 156). Yet evolutionists would have us believe that such genetic mistakes are helpful in the long run. Phillip Johnson observes: "To suppose that such a random event could reconstruct even a single complex organ like a liver or kidney is about as reasonable as to suppose that an improved watch can be designed by throwing an old one against a wall" (Darwin on Trial, p. 37). We can be thankful that mutations are extremely rare. An average of one mistake per 10 million correct copies occurs in the genetic code. Whoever or whatever types 10 million letters with only one mistake would easily be the world's best typist and probably would not be human. Yet this is the astounding accuracy of our supposedly blind genetic code when it replicates itself.
If, however, these copying errors were to accumulate, a species, instead of improving, would eventually degenerate and perish. But geneticists have discovered a self-correcting system. "The genetic code in each living thing has its own built-in limitations," says Hitching. "It seems designed to stop a plant or creature stepping too far away from the average. Every series of breeding experiments that has ever taken place has established a finite limit to breeding possibilities. Genes are a strong influence for conservatism, and allow only modest change. Left to their own devices, artificially bred species usually die out (because they are sterile or less robust) or quickly revert to the norm" (Hitching, pp. 54-55). Some scientists reluctantly concede that mutations do not explain Darwin's proposed transition from one species to the next. Zoologist Pierre-Paul Grassé, he published a major book on evolution in 1973. First and foremost, the book aimed to expose Darwinism as a theory that did not work, because it clashed with so many experimental findings. Grassé studied this extensively, both inside his laboratory and in nature. In all sorts of living things, from bacteria to plants and animals, he observed that mutations do not take succeeding generations further and further from their starting point. Instead, the changes are like the “flight of a butterfly in a green house, which travels for miles without moving more than a few feet from its starting point.
There are invisible but firmly fixed boundaries that mutations can never cross . . . He insists that mutations are only trivial changes; they are merely the result of slightly altered genes, whereas 'creative evolution . . . demands the genesis of new ones'" (Hayward, p. 25).


Embarrassingly for evolutionists, mutation is also not the answer. Ironically, mutation shows the opposite of what evolutionism teaches: In real life random mutation is the villain and not the hero.

This takes us to one last point on mutations: the inability of evolution to explain the appearance of simple life and intricate organs. Cells are incredibly complicated living things. They are self-sufficient and function like miniature chemical factories. The closer we look at cells, the more we realize their incredible complexity. For example, the cell wall is a wonder in itself. If it were too porous, harmful solutions would enter and cause the cell to burst. On the other hand, if the wall were too impervious, no nourishment could come in or waste products go out, and the cell would quickly die. Biochemist Behe, the associate professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, summarizes one of the fundamental flaws of evolution as an explanation for any form of life. "Darwin's theory encounters its greatest difficulties when it comes to explaining the development of the cell. Many cellular systems are what I term 'irreducibly complex.' That means the system needs several components before it can work properly. (Darwin Under the Microscope, New York Times, Oct. 29, 1996, p. A25). Michael Denton, the microbiologist and senior research fellow at the University of Otago in New Zealand, contrasts how the cell was viewed in Darwin's day with what today's researchers can see. In Darwin's time the cell could be viewed at best at a magnification of several hundred times. Using the best technology of their day, when scientists viewed the cell they saw "a relatively disappointing spectacle appearing only as an ever-changing and apparently disordered pattern of blobs and particles which, under the influence of unseen turbulent forces, [were] continually tossed haphazardly in all directions" (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1985, p. 328). The years since then have brought astounding technological advancements. Now researchers can peer into the tiniest parts of cells. “To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology," writes Dr. Denton, "we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine-that is one single functional protein molecule-would be beyond our capacity. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules" (Denton, pp. 328-329).This is a microbiologist's description of one cell. The human body contains about 10 trillion (10,000,000,000,000) brain, nerve, muscle and other types of cells.

Sir James Gray, a Cambridge University professor of zoology, states: "Bacteria are far more complex than any inanimate system known to man. There is not a laboratory in the world which can compete with the biochemical activity of the smallest living organism" (Marshall and Sandra Hall, The Truth: God or Evolution?, 1974, p. 89).How complex are the tiniest living things? Even the simplest cells must possess a staggering amount of genetic information to function. For instance, the bacterium R. coli is one of the tiniest unicellular creatures in nature. Scientists calculate it has some 2,000 genes, each with around 1,000 enzymes (organic catalysts, chemicals that speed up other chemical reactions). An enzyme is made up of a billion nucleotides, each of which amounts to a letter in the chemical alphabet, comparable to a byte in computer language. These enzymes instruct the organism how to function and reproduce. The DNA information in just this single tiny cell is "the approximate equivalent of 100 million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica" (John Whitcomb, The Early Earth, 1972, p. 79).

What are the odds that the enzymes needed to produce the simplest living creature-with each enzyme performing a specific chemical function-could come together by chance? Astrophysicists Sir Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe calculated the odds at one chance in 1040,000 (that is, 10 to the 40,000th power: mathematical shorthand for a 10 followed by 40,000 zeros, a number long enough to fill about seven pages of this publication). Note that a probability of less than 1 in 1050 is considered by mathematicians to be a complete impossibility (Hayward, pp. 35-37). By comparison, Sir Arthur Eddington, another mathematician, estimates there are no more than 1080 atoms in the universe! (Hitching, p. 70).
 

cclanofirish

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Evolution Info

What have we learned since Charles Darwin's treatise on evolution, Origin of Species, was first published in 1859? In addition to a thorough exploration of the fossil record, a vast amount of other information is readily available. Obviously, the first problem is the lack of the fossil record.

After the fossil record, the second supposed proof of evolution offered by Darwinists is natural selection, which they hoped biologists would confirm. Darwin's idea that the survival of the fittest would explain how species evolved has been relegated to a redundant, self-evident statement. Geneticist Conrad Waddington of Edinburgh University defines the fundamental problem of advocating natural selection as a proof of Darwinism: "Natural selection turns out on closer inspection to be a tautology, a statement of an inevitable although previously unrecognized relation. It states that the fittest individuals in a population ... will leave most offspring" (Bethell, p. 310).
In other words, what are the fittest? Why, those that survive, of course. And what survives? Why, naturally, the fittest. The problem is that circular reasoning doesn't point to any independent criteria that can evaluate whether the theory is true.

Darwin cited an example of the way natural selection was supposed to work: A wolf that had inherited the ability to run especially fast was better equipped to survive. His advantage in outrunning others in the pack when food was scarce meant he could eat better and thus survive longer. Yet the very changes that enabled the wolf to run faster could easily become a hindrance if other modifications of the body did not accompany the increased speed. For example, the additional exertion required to run faster would naturally place an added strain on the animal's heart, and eventually it could drop from a heart attack. The survival of the fittest would require that any biological or anatomical alterations would have to be in harmony and synchronized with other bodily modifications, or the changes would be of no benefit. Natural selection, scientists have found, in reality deals only with the number of species, not the change of the species. It has to do with the survival and not the arrival of the species. Natural selection only preserves existing genetic information (DNA); it doesn't create genetic material that would allow an animal to sprout a new organ, limb or some other anatomical feature.

What about random mutations? Curiously enough, Darwin himself was one of the first to discount beneficial effects from rare changes he noted in species. He did not even include them in his theory. "He did not consider them important," says Maurice Caullery in his book Genetics and Heredity, "because they nearly always represented an obvious disadvantage from the point of view of the struggle for existence; consequently they would most likely be rapidly eliminated in the wild state by the operation of natural selection" (1964, p. 10, emphasis added). In Darwin's lifetime the principles of genetics were not clearly understood. Gregor Mendel had published his findings on genetic principles in 1866, but his work was overlooked at the time. Later, at the beginning of the 20th century, Hugo De Vries rediscovered these principles, which evolutionists quickly seized on to support evolution. Sir Julian Huxley, one of the principal spokesmen for evolutionary theory in the 20th century, commented on the unpredictability of mutations: "Mutation provides the raw material of evolution; it is a random affair and takes place in all directions" (Evolution in Action, 1953, p. 38).

What has almost a century of research discovered? Those mutations are pathological mistakes and not helpful changes in the genetic code. C.P. Martin of McGill University in Montreal wrote, "Mutation is a pathological process which has had little or nothing to do with evolution" ("A Non-Geneticist Looks at Evolution," American Scientist, January 1953, p. 100). Professor Martin's investigations revealed mutations are overwhelmingly negative and never creative. He observed that an apparently beneficial mutation was likely only a correction of a previously deleterious one, similar to “punching a man with a dislocated shoulder and inadvertently putting it back into place.” Science writer Milton explains the problem: "The results of such copying errors are tragically familiar. In body cells, faulty replication shows itself as cancer." (Richard Milton, Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, 1997, p. 156). Yet evolutionists would have us believe that such genetic mistakes are helpful in the long run. Phillip Johnson observes: "To suppose that such a random event could reconstruct even a single complex organ like a liver or kidney is about as reasonable as to suppose that an improved watch can be designed by throwing an old one against a wall" (Darwin on Trial, p. 37). We can be thankful that mutations are extremely rare. An average of one mistake per 10 million correct copies occurs in the genetic code. Whoever or whatever types 10 million letters with only one mistake would easily be the world's best typist and probably would not be human. Yet this is the astounding accuracy of our supposedly blind genetic code when it replicates itself.
If, however, these copying errors were to accumulate, a species, instead of improving, would eventually degenerate and perish. But geneticists have discovered a self-correcting system. "The genetic code in each living thing has its own built-in limitations," says Hitching. "It seems designed to stop a plant or creature stepping too far away from the average. Every series of breeding experiments that has ever taken place has established a finite limit to breeding possibilities. Genes are a strong influence for conservatism, and allow only modest change. Left to their own devices, artificially bred species usually die out (because they are sterile or less robust) or quickly revert to the norm" (Hitching, pp. 54-55). Some scientists reluctantly concede that mutations do not explain Darwin's proposed transition from one species to the next. Zoologist Pierre-Paul Grassé, he published a major book on evolution in 1973. First and foremost, the book aimed to expose Darwinism as a theory that did not work, because it clashed with so many experimental findings. Grassé studied this extensively, both inside his laboratory and in nature. In all sorts of living things, from bacteria to plants and animals, he observed that mutations do not take succeeding generations further and further from their starting point. Instead, the changes are like the “flight of a butterfly in a green house, which travels for miles without moving more than a few feet from its starting point.
There are invisible but firmly fixed boundaries that mutations can never cross . . . He insists that mutations are only trivial changes; they are merely the result of slightly altered genes, whereas 'creative evolution . . . demands the genesis of new ones'" (Hayward, p. 25).


Embarrassingly for evolutionists, mutation is also not the answer. Ironically, mutation shows the opposite of what evolutionism teaches: In real life random mutation is the villain and not the hero.

This takes us to one last point on mutations: the inability of evolution to explain the appearance of simple life and intricate organs. Cells are incredibly complicated living things. They are self-sufficient and function like miniature chemical factories. The closer we look at cells, the more we realize their incredible complexity. For example, the cell wall is a wonder in itself. If it were too porous, harmful solutions would enter and cause the cell to burst. On the other hand, if the wall were too impervious, no nourishment could come in or waste products go out, and the cell would quickly die. Biochemist Behe, the associate professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, summarizes one of the fundamental flaws of evolution as an explanation for any form of life. "Darwin's theory encounters its greatest difficulties when it comes to explaining the development of the cell. Many cellular systems are what I term 'irreducibly complex.' That means the system needs several components before it can work properly. (Darwin Under the Microscope, New York Times, Oct. 29, 1996, p. A25). Michael Denton, the microbiologist and senior research fellow at the University of Otago in New Zealand, contrasts how the cell was viewed in Darwin's day with what today's researchers can see. In Darwin's time the cell could be viewed at best at a magnification of several hundred times. Using the best technology of their day, when scientists viewed the cell they saw "a relatively disappointing spectacle appearing only as an ever-changing and apparently disordered pattern of blobs and particles which, under the influence of unseen turbulent forces, [were] continually tossed haphazardly in all directions" (Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1985, p. 328). The years since then have brought astounding technological advancements. Now researchers can peer into the tiniest parts of cells. “To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology," writes Dr. Denton, "we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine-that is one single functional protein molecule-would be beyond our capacity. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules" (Denton, pp. 328-329).This is a microbiologist's description of one cell. The human body contains about 10 trillion (10,000,000,000,000) brain, nerve, muscle and other types of cells.

Sir James Gray, a Cambridge University professor of zoology, states: "Bacteria are far more complex than any inanimate system known to man. There is not a laboratory in the world which can compete with the biochemical activity of the smallest living organism" (Marshall and Sandra Hall, The Truth: God or Evolution?, 1974, p. 89).How complex are the tiniest living things? Even the simplest cells must possess a staggering amount of genetic information to function. For instance, the bacterium R. coli is one of the tiniest unicellular creatures in nature. Scientists calculate it has some 2,000 genes, each with around 1,000 enzymes (organic catalysts, chemicals that speed up other chemical reactions). An enzyme is made up of a billion nucleotides, each of which amounts to a letter in the chemical alphabet, comparable to a byte in computer language. These enzymes instruct the organism how to function and reproduce. The DNA information in just this single tiny cell is "the approximate equivalent of 100 million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica" (John Whitcomb, The Early Earth, 1972, p. 79).

What are the odds that the enzymes needed to produce the simplest living creature-with each enzyme performing a specific chemical function-could come together by chance? Astrophysicists Sir Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe calculated the odds at one chance in 1040,000 (that is, 10 to the 40,000th power: mathematical shorthand for a 10 followed by 40,000 zeros, a number long enough to fill about seven pages of this publication). Note that a probability of less than 1 in 1050 is considered by mathematicians to be a complete impossibility (Hayward, pp. 35-37). By comparison, Sir Arthur Eddington, another mathematician, estimates there are no more than 1080 atoms in the universe! (Hitching, p. 70).

See SLH, unlike you, I back up my statements with some emblence of resources to peruse. You on the other hand, attack anything you dont agree with, but still have not provided any links, or other outside proof to show that your assertions are correct. So I invite you to do so now.
 
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