Offensive Line Thread

[MrIrishCanadian1]

Keep it coming coach. We are loving it.

Oh, how we love our beloved Hiestand.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

And they were tiny in '07, '09. and '10 when they beat the 300 pounders, weren't they?

In '10 a 35-17 whipping on both sides of the ball the Tinies crammed it down The Big Boys throats for 367 yds. Meanwhile the 300+ pound OLine had "a ton of fun with this defense" against the Tinies, leading the charge to a paltry 106 yds on 30 carries.

Same teams, Same size differential, Same "Star" differential. Navy hasn't had a greater "Star" Differential since WWII.

Hiestand has this OLine playing like a unit, not a bunch of one on ones, or worse - ones on nobody. That happened on the sack Saturday once then it got corrected. Again, Hiestand.

There's truth on both sides of this debate. They looked really good. That said, Navy is small. That said, Navy's small guys beat us up a few times in the last 5 years. That said, they didn't last year (pre-Hiestand). Let's see what happens in the next two weeks. We'll know a lot more then.

Boy...did they look good though.

 

[elboricua]

people are being ridiculous about this. Some people are making like Warriner didnt do a good job. He did. Maybe not the best job, and maybe a job Kelly thought he could improve on. Let's hope he does. But Hiestand got all midwestern/northeast o-line recruits and is not known for recruiting. Let's see if he can do it a couple of years in a row, because we are going to have to go out west and down south to get them too. He didn't succeed at Tennessee. Let's see if he does here for at least a whole season and if ND performs well against better front 7s and also how Stanley and other younger guys develop and the nastiness that they show. Give it time. He hasn't done much yet. Looks great, but pushing around Navy is always the way it should be. I give more credit to Kelly for that than Hiestand at this point.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Kelly sets everyone up to succeed.

Harry has taught more technique this year than the past four line coaches did in their tenure.

Harry is and will be a force.

 

[elboricua]

Kelly sets everyone up to succeed.

Harry has taught more technique this year than the past four line coaches did in their tenure.

Harry is and will be a force.

See this is what I'm talking about. We don't know this. Warriner appeared to develop the technique of our oline pretty well and his resume provides ample evidence that he had done so many times in the past. Now he's a coach with a really successful head coach who presumably knows something about hiring spread o-line coaches who teach a power run game. We will see if HIestand is great for this team, good, or just solid. Let's let it play out. Right now, they look to be playing with some more aggression which is the big thing. Let's see how development of younger players goes.

 

[nd1989]

See this is what I'm talking about. We don't know this. Warriner appeared to develop the technique of our oline pretty well and his resume provides ample evidence that he had done so many times in the past. Now he's a coach with a really successful head coach who presumably knows something about hiring spread o-line coaches who teach a power run game. We will see if HIestand is great for this team, good, or just solid. Let's let it play out. Right now, they look to be playing with some more aggression which is the big thing. Let's see how development of younger players goes.

Last year the line was fine under Warriner, until Braxton went out. After that, with Golic at center, the OL was average. We'll see how it goes this year. State will be a big game coming up.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

See this is what I'm talking about. We don't know this. Warriner appeared to develop the technique of our oline pretty well and his resume provides ample evidence that he had done so many times in the past. Now he's a coach with a really successful head coach who presumably knows something about hiring spread o-line coaches who teach a power run game. We will see if HIestand is great for this team, good, or just solid. Let's let it play out. Right now, they look to be playing with some more aggression which is the big thing. Let's see how development of younger players goes.

We do know this. Four linemen have publically said that Harry is the only one that really knows his stuff. In honesty, Warriner was an OC that Kelly used as a line coach. In addition, last year Kelly added Run Game Coordinator to his duties, and he is the one that truly started the push for the improved run blocking. But evey lineman will tell you technique, Harry hands down has it.

 

[Bluto]

Nice signature Bog. Hot stuff. Lol.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Bluto: Bogs is just being a gentleman to KissMe. She said she's go along with the Golson/Upton banner for the game if the guys would put up this one. Bogs is honoring that.

 

[elboricua]

We do know this. Four linemen have publically said that Harry is the only one that really knows his stuff. In honesty, Warriner was an OC that Kelly used as a line coach. In addition, last year Kelly added Run Game Coordinator to his duties, and he is the one that truly started the push for the improved run blocking. But evey lineman will tell you technique, Harry hands down has it.

Ok, well for one thing, I don't think it matters what the lineman say as far as him knowing his stuff. He's the coach and they are players, he is supposed to know his stuff compared to them. Warriner was an o-line coach at Notre Dame and he was a successful one in several types of offenses at previous stops which was my point. As for what we do really know, we do know that the players like HIestand a lot. That is saying something. As to the previous poster who made the point about Golic having to play, that was the main problem. Golic had to play. Golic would never have been offered by Kelly I feel pretty confident in saying. When you take a huge drop in talent at the center position, you struggle especially when everyone stacks the box because your qb can't throw deep and can't run.

 

[irishff1014]

Kelly sets everyone up to succeed.

Harry has taught more technique this year than the past four line coaches did in their tenure.

Harry is and will be a force.

I think that these coaches work together to get the best possible outcome. They aren't afraid to help each other or ask for help. I really like this coaching staff.

 

[greyhammer90]

Is Harry planning on trying to get back to the NFL? Basically what I'm asking is, if Harry does have a great tenure here, will he likely be moving on? Or is he looking for a place to stay long-term?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Ok, well for one thing, I don't think it matters what the lineman say as far as him knowing his stuff. He's the coach and they are players, he is supposed to know his stuff compared to them. Warriner was an o-line coach at Notre Dame and he was a successful one in several types of offenses at previous stops which was my point. As for what we do really know, we do know that the players like HIestand a lot. That is saying something. As to the previous poster who made the point about Golic having to play, that was the main problem. Golic had to play. Golic would never have been offered by Kelly I feel pretty confident in saying. When you take a huge drop in talent at the center position, you struggle especially when everyone stacks the box because your qb can't throw deep and can't run.

I totally disagree with the bolded part. There's no way Kelly would have snubbed a legacy.

 

[irishog77]

I totally disagree with the bolded part. There's no way Kelly would have snubbed a legacy.

Unless he's a Montana

 

[NYMIKE6]

Is Harry planning on trying to get back to the NFL? Basically what I'm asking is, if Harry does have a great tenure here, will he likely be moving on? Or is he looking for a place to stay long-term?

I have no hard facts just opinion. So my take on it. I highly doubt he would leave after 1 or 2 seasons here, and the reason for that is because of the recruits that he potentially has coming in the '13 class. Now if he develops those guys in to a group of All-Americans he might consider going else where if he's not looking for a long-term home.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Unless he's a Montana

You maybe got me there. But, I think there's a difference between 3 star Mike Golic (and even 2 star Jake Golic) and no-star, not even ranked by Rivals, Nate Montana.

 

[elboricua]

I totally disagree with the bolded part. There's no way Kelly would have snubbed a legacy.

He has already. He didn't offer the Blake Bars kid last year who was better than Golic and went to Michigan. Now, maybe you're right that he would have offered Golic. But that's not my point. My point is that Kelly would not under normal circumstances offer a player of his growth potential and talent. And that the depth is not where it needs to be because the options shouldn't be Golic or an inexperienced but probably fairly talented Nick Martin. And that that cannot be put on Warriner. You're going to struggle when you put in Golic against a good FSU d-line or a good Stanford D-line when they don't fear getting the ball thrown over them or fear the qb running at all.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

He has already. He didn't offer the Blake Bars kid last year who was better than Golic and went to Michigan. Now, maybe you're right that he would have offered Golic. But that's not my point. My point is that Kelly would not under normal circumstances offer a player of his growth potential and talent. And that the depth is not where it needs to be because the options shouldn't be Golic or an inexperienced but probably fairly talented Nick Martin. And that that cannot be put on Warriner. You're going to struggle when you put in Golic against a good FSU d-line or a good Stanford D-line when they don't fear getting the ball thrown over them or fear the qb running at all.

I agree that he likely wouldn't have offered him if his last name wasn't Golic. But, I still bet he would have gotten an offer.

I don't know about Bars. Given his offer list, was there something else going on there?

 

[BGIF]

people are being ridiculous about this.

With your posts the most ridiculous. Playing a tad loose with the facts aren't you?

Some people are making like Warriner didnt do a good job. He did. Maybe not the best job, and maybe a job Kelly thought he could improve on. Let's hope he does. But Hiestand got all midwestern/northeast o-line recruits and is not known for recruiting. Let's see if he can do it a couple of years in a row, because we are going to have to go out west and down south to get them too. He didn't succeed at Tennessee. Let's see if he does here for at least a whole season and if ND performs well against better front 7s and also how Stanley and other younger guys develop and the nastiness that they show. Give it time. He hasn't done much yet. Looks great, but pushing around Navy is always the way it should be. I give more credit to Kelly for that than Hiestand at this point.

Warinner was the OLine coach when Navy was't pushed around in the trenches but actually stifled our be massive OLine in '10 wasn't he?

Warinner was an OLine coach who became a OC but at ND his job was OLine Coach/Running Game Coordinator. Soooo, the paltry 106 yds on 30 carries was his responsiblity on 2 counts. OL and Running Game. Was Warinner on the same page with Molnar, the OC? Or was he like Corwin Bell and Joe Tenuta, Weis's Co D.C.s? Or was he like Joe Moore in '96 who fought Holtz tooth and nail over Holtz's move to the Blarney Offense when Moore refused to work on pass blocking because he wanted Smash Mouth football?

Molnar move out while the moving was fortitous. But Warinner didn't get the OC job despite "all his experience with different offenses". Perhaps it was because he wanted to run his offense and Kelly wanted his offense run. Ala Holtz and Moore. So Martin becomes OC. And a new OL coach is hired to run what Kelly wants.

But Hiestand got all midwestern/northeast o-line recruits and is not known for recruiting. Let's see if he can do it a couple of years in a row, because we are going to have to go out west and down south to get them too. He didn't succeed at Tennessee.

Funny I thought Kelly had his guys recruiting by primary territory so as to develop long term relationships with high coaching staffs in those regions instead of having the whole staff cover the nation willy nilly.

Hiestand didn't succeed at Tennessee. Damn, and here I thought the debacle at UT was caused by Fulmer, Kiffin, and Dooley over about a 6 or 8 year period. Didn't realize that Hiestand in his year there was the one that damaged the brand. Hiestand was in the NFL when 3 HEAD coaches and an assortment of assistants were urinating in the soup. Four (4) losing seasons. But you're right, Hiestand didn't succeed at Tennessee. BTW, who did, at Tennesse, during those years?

I give more credit to Kelly for that than Hiestand at this point

Oh did Kelly take over teaching technique? Do he spend his days with the all 105 players on the roster. Give Kelly credit for the hiring and perhaps for instilling better communication between HIS coaches. But then that is his job, isn't it.


Your comments on Golic in subsequent posts are equally specious. Golic was the 8 ranked CENTER who verballed 2 weeks after NSD as a Junior. Bars was the #58 OT. I recall ND taking higher ranked centers than Golic but I don't recall ND taking an OT higher than Bars #58 ranking. Bar was an ND legacy and they didn't offer. He was also an MSU legacy and they didn't offer. He also has a brother at PSU. They offered but he opted for UM in June of '11. Maybe he would have gotten an offer after his senior season but he walked to his own drummer, he didn't go to ND, MSU, or PSU where relatives had.

Fortunately for ND they had Golic when Cave went down. Remember how the other guys they tried there worked out? Golic, a BIG step down from Cave, was better than anyone else.

And as for the need to play Golic, let's keep in mind a HS verbal who would would be starting at OT today died before he became a student. Another OL who would be starting a G over Golic transferred out of ND because his father died and he needed to be closer to his family at Tennessee. Alex Bullard is Tennesse's staring Center by the way. Prestwood was a higher rated talent than Golic but he's not on the team either.

Here's to Harry Heistand, Notre Dame's OLine Coach! Off to a good start!

Thanks NDinL.A. for starting this thread.

GO IRISH!

 

[50milesSE ND]

Mike Golic Jr was a top 5 center coming out of highschool so he was legit for any school to look at however Jake not so much.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I went back and looked. Watch the o-line fire off against Navy this year, as compared against any game in Kelly's first season, and compare the charge. I think we got us some real knee benders. I would like OldManMike's opinion.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Mike Golic Jr was a top 5 center coming out of highschool so he was legit for any school to look at however Jake not so much.

Scout.com: Michael Golic Jr. Profile

Mike Golic - Yahoo! Sports

 

[Old Man Mike]

I have two opinions, which are opinions so shouldn't be taken overly seriously:

1). On Hiestand going elsewhere, as someone wondered: he said upon accepting the job at Tennessee that he was looking for a good place to retire with a family atmosphere. Dooley himself screwed that thing all up and a bunch of his assistants left; none of that was on Coach Harry. As to recruiting and our coach: Dooley did not give Coach Harry any primary recruiting responsibility his year there. Coach couldn't have wandered around the states if he wanted to. Also, Coach inherited a "fat" offensive line when he arrived; not the trimmed up one he's gotten here --- and uniformly trim now that certain Weis-holdover O-Linemen have graduated. [As an aside, midwestern boys are as good at offensive line as anybody. You don't have to go to the sunshine for the big uglies. A lot of the Sunshine U's come up here to get bigs.]

2). That leads to the second opinion: Hiestand's line is a]. in shape; b]. confident and very aggressive; c]. and apparently has good technique both in brains and brawn. They have good leadership [Martin vocally; probably Golic, too], and Cave and Watt as uber-physical people-mashers. When Riddick went in on a score, Cave turned to Watt and they did the elbow-hook power "high-five". On other scores or big runs, watch Cave as first man to the ball-carrier/receiver or darn near it.

I thought that [just one game now] the line was explosively decisive --- including our "rookie" Lombard. I thought that they created space and movement nearly every time --- something almost impossible no matter who you are playing.

This was just one game. It will be generally interesting vs Purdue, and specifically interesting to see if they can control Short. Very optimistic about these guys and how, I think, Hiestand has built off of a good base by Warriner and taken the unit to a higher level.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Zack Martin:
Rivals - #22
ESPN - #10
Scout - #24

Chris Watt:
Rivals - #2 OG
ESPN - #4 OG
Scout - #1 OG

Braxston Cave:
Rivals - #4 C
ESPN - #1 C
Scout - #2 C

Mike Golic:
Rivals - #8 C
ESPN - #4 C
Scout - #30 OG

Christian Lombard:
Rivals - #5 OG
ESPN - #20 OT
Scout - #2 OG

This probably helps too. Mike Golic Jr. is the only average talent on the line.

 

[OCIrish]

I know some of us took the, who am I to judge stance and others the wait and see approach. To be fair, he hasn't coached a game yet but I do believe reports came out after his initial hiring about how some of the Big Uglies were really liking him especially compared to Warriner.

Regardless, he is doing work bro.

Grahambo, you can certainly count me in "wait and see" group of fans, and I'll be the first to admit, I like the way his line is playing. Granted, Navy was outmatched, but there's been years past that Navy was outmatched by our line, or should have been, and made our line look like a group of high school sophomores.

I look forward to watching what our line can do to Purdue!!!

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Judging Golic today by the "stars" he had a few years ago is a bit unfair IMO.

Remember, Leveon Bell had 2 stars but today is a Heisman front-runner. Things change Mox.

 

[elboricua]

This is where the internet gets annoying. You are responding it seems entirely based on what you think I mean by what I say and not based on what I'm actually saying. As far as your initial statement, no need to be dramatic. My posts are opinion like everyone else and they are based on facts. I'm not playing loose with any facts at all.(I'm a lawyer, I should know how) If you think I am, point to those facts and we'll see.

Now, let's get to the actual points I made. What I am saying is that I see people very quick to anoint Hiestand as a great Notre Dame o-line coach(he may very well be) but we don't know that yet and we have a very small amount of evidence to choose from if we choose to make an argument either way. That's my point when I say that Hiestand failed at Tennessee. I don't know why he failed. He failed because his o-lines weren't good. Now of course there are other possible causes of this failure besides a poor job done by Hiestand. I happen to agree that he most likely wasn't the cause of any of the problems. But we don't know that for sure, it's a guess. So my point is let's wait and see until we have more evidence. As to your points about Warriner, I think it's a lot of conjecture. Before Warriner got to ND he coached o-line for 13 years at Army, Air Force, Kansas, and Illinois. He was very successful in divergent offenses at every step. You reference the relative lack of success in his first year. I agree. But did they vastly improve in his second year after he was promoted to run game coordinator? They did by leaps and bounds and Molnar was still the OC. From The Irish averaged 4.0 rushing yards per carry, the best rushing average by a Notre Dame team since 2003. Notre Dame's offensive line allowed a sack on only 4.0 percent of the overall pass attempts in 2010 and the 1.54 sacks allowed per game was the fewest by an Irish offensive line since 1998 (0.8 per game). That was after the first year only. In his second year, he went up from 4.82 yards per rush and only 17 sacks allowed and that was with Tommy freaking Rees at qb. And those numbers would have been far better with Cave if Cave stayed healthy. So all I'm saying is that people who are pretending that Warriner didn't do a very good to excellent job are not living in reality, at least based on evidence that we have. Hiestand might be way better for ND but we don't have evidence of it yet. That's all I'm saying.

Now, as to the Golic thing. Again, what evidence do we have concerning Kelly's offers to o-lineman and the circumstances which led to the depth which requires Golic be a key player? This is almost too much to get into in this post, but the point is that Kelly and company have done a very good job of recruiting o-lineman since he arrived but they are lacking in depth. You have to adjust if you don't get all the players you want and you have to try and adjust if players decommit and still make sure you have enough guys.(ala Taylor Decker) The point about Matt James of course is well taken and Jordan Prestwood's academic issues can't be alleviated right now, but you can't get 2 o-lineman in a given year. Let's get back to 2009 the Matt James year. Kelly got 3 o-lineman including James and you can say 4 if you want to put Heggie there. Of course that cannot be put on him entirely because he didnt have much time to recruit. The following year in his excellent class he recruited 3 again although I think it might be fair to give him 4 since Carrico was put on the o-line after coming in. And then you have the 2 of last year. Now without going too much into it, it is of course mostly Weis' fault that there aren't more experienced o-lineman. Bullard did transfer, but he was once again 1 of only 3 players who signed in 2009. Point I was trying to make is that they need to sign more guys which is what they did this year. Now, as to the Hiestand recruiting issue, I'm not saying he didn't do a great job this year. I am merely pointing out that it was a strong year for midwestern o-lineman and they got all of their guys from the midwest or the northeast and that is not going to be possible if you want the top guys every year. That is all. Doesn't mean he can't do it. It just means it's not a representative sample size and shouldn't excite anyone too much.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

TLDR

 

[johnnykillz]

TLDR

Exactly.

This is my motif.

 

[Fbolt]

hasn't this thread died over the past few weeks....