Not Sure I Buy the Narratives

[IrishLax]

That game was incredibly disappointing, and it boils down to two primary issues:
1. Over a three game sample size, it's extremely clear that this offensive line is orders of magnitude worse without Jarrett Patterson. The OL was the #1 reason for offensive success, and it's just not playing at the same level. This not only killed ND's rushing attack for the third straight week, it is unlikely to get fixed until next season.
2. ND doesn't have a big boy passing game like you see at Alabama, Clemson, or Florida. They don't have an "uncoverable" WR or a top draft pick QB, and now they're also giving up more pressure.

That's it. That's the list. There is nothing wrong with a 10-1 team besides that they're a bit undertalented at a couple positions and apparently "depth" on the OL was a sick joke. There aren't culture problems, systemic coaching issues, etc.

A lot of the editorializing about how ND isn't close to Bama/Clemson/Ohio State misses the fact that NO ONE is close to these schools besides one-offs from other SEC teams. The PAC12 and Oklahoma and other Big Ten teams get throttled whenever they're given the opportunity to step up. Oklahoma every single year ends up in a playoff game where they get laughed off the field as bad or worse than what we just saw... yet no one goes "oh man Oklahoma and Lincoln Riley have a big problem and need to burn it all down."

At the end of the day, ND beat Clemson the first time around because the offense made a bunch of big plays. This time, the offense made none of those plays. Similarly, a kinda streaky Florida team competed with Bama this evening... because their offense made big plays. Winning in 2020 is as simple as how hard your passing game is to stop.

I think its a bit dramatic to act like the sky is falling or a previously undefeated team is headed the wrong direction because of one game against a generational QB paired with the top rated defense in college football led by the best DC in the country getting his second crack at a first year OC. The bigger question is what can ND do to land players like Lawrence... or Shipley... or many others they aren't even in the conversation for. And frankly, I'm not sure there is an answer short of brazen cheating. But it sort of is-what-it-is and people shouldn't pretend that the team has been steadily heading in the right direction since the debacle of 2016.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

The narrative got ahead of itself after we beat Clemson. We were a much more healthy team that played the game of their lives to beat Clemson in double overtime. Fantastic team win and I take nothing away from it

The "Lawrence couldn't do better" crowd was delusional. DJ is a future Heisman caliber QB who played his ass off but Lawrence is arguably the best QB prospect in a decade.

This 2020 ND team has a lot to hang its head on but we were up against a team that has won a couple of titles this past decade and a QB that never lost a regular season game in his 3 years at a starter. Still a team to be massively proud of

 

[GATTACA!]

It's time to start looking at who can transfer in at the QB position. That's clearly our limiting factor right now and until that position is solved with a game changer like Lawrence/Trask/Jones this is who are.

 

[Crazy Balki]

apparently "depth" on the OL was a sick joke.

Disagree completely with this.

ND has depth on the OL, but the OL is a group that you can't really afford missing personnel, especially a guy playing as high a level as Patterson was. Reality is that ND wasn't just missing Patterson, but his backup in Correll. Lugg is already playing hurt as is, but he is also woefully out of his element at center.

Doesn't help that Kraemer also looks like he hasn't fully recovered either. Just a terrible time to be experiencing long-term injuries, in a position group where cohesion and chemistry are absolutely necessary. But this is when, like you said, you need something to keep defenses honest.

Nobody is afraid of Book, McKinley and Skowronek burning them for big plays, so teams just pack the middle of the field, contain Book to keep him in the pocket and take the easy stuff away.

Sadly, injuries to our receiving group and Book's inconsistencies have hindered our offense. Thought we had turned a corner, but this was a huge step back.

Alabama doesn't have as good a defense as Clemson, but it may not matter. If we can't beat them deep, they're good enough to take the easy stuff away and force Book to make tough decisions.

 

[phork]

It boils down to talent and depth to even lessen your points.

The defence was bad in that game for whatever reason. Blame Lea or whoever. Our play makers from the first game vanished and they played in their heels after the first quarter the rest of the night. The score could have been so much worse, I fully believe Dabo backed off in order to rescue the 2 ACC team playoff dream.

On offence, we'll I don't blame Book as much as the oline. The oline was terrible. He was running for his life all night.

But again the narrative isn't "Well NDs oline wasn't full strength etc..." It is ND can't play on the same level.

I fully believe that outside of Meyer coming here that Kelly is the best man for this job right now. Consistency at the coordinators postion would help as well. Hard to be a consistent team when you are interviewing new coordinators every 3rd year..

 

[phillyirish]

The drop off at center is insane. Feels like we have a botched snap on every single drive.
The first quarter we really played well for the most part. I think this team knows it needs to play perfect to compete with the best teams. Once we had the few costly mistakes, the team fell apart.

 

[Crazy Balki]

The drop off at center is insane. Feels like we have a botched snap on every single drive.
The first quarter we really played well for the most part. I think this team knows it needs to play perfect to compete with the best teams. Once we had the few costly mistakes, the team fell apart.

Not that insane when you remember that Lugg is the third string. I'd say you expect a major drop off when you go from All-American level center to third string guy who's never taken a meaningful snap at the position.

 

[irishtrooper]

The narrative got ahead of itself after we beat Clemson. We were a much more healthy team that played the game of their lives to beat Clemson in double overtime. Fantastic team win and I take nothing away from it

The "Lawrence couldn't do better" crowd was delusional. DJ is a future Heisman caliber QB who played his ass off but Lawrence is arguably the best QB prospect in a decade.

This 2020 ND team has a lot to hang its head on but we were up against a team that has won a couple of titles this past decade and a QB that never lost a regular season game in his 3 years at a starter. Still a team to be massively proud of

Game of their lives? Did you forget the mistakes that cost ND a huge early lead? I suppose a retort would be the lucky JOK play (I believe great players make great plays). But fine, I can counter with the Book fumble going in as an answer to that..... Game of their lives. Come on. I agree with LAX. The mental gymnastics here are amusing. We beat Clemson in the trenches last time and Book was terrific. That didn’t happen this time. We earned that win and I think THEY are lucky we didn’t beat them by more the first time

 

[IrishTusker]

Okay, so things are better than 2016. 2016 should never have happened, though; given the resources and talent that this program has relative to the teams on our schedule we should not really ever be worse than 9-3.

The more important question is: where are we relative to the 2013 Bama beatdown? Can we honestly say today that we are closer to winning a championship?

 

[Ndaccountant]

Okay, so things are better than 2016. 2016 should never have happened, though; given the resources and talent that this program has relative to the teams on our schedule we should not really ever be worse than 9-3.

The more important question is: where are we relative to the 2013 Bama beatdown? Can we honestly say today that we are closer to winning a championship?

I think 2020 ND would easily beat 2012, if that answers your question.

 

[notredomer23]

That game was incredibly disappointing, and it boils down to two primary issues:
1. Over a three game sample size, it's extremely clear that this offensive line is orders of magnitude worse without Jarrett Patterson. The OL was the #1 reason for offensive success, and it's just not playing at the same level. This not only killed ND's rushing attack for the third straight week, it is unlikely to get fixed until next season.
2. ND doesn't have a big boy passing game like you see at Alabama, Clemson, or Florida. They don't have an "uncoverable" WR or a top draft pick QB, and now they're also giving up more pressure.

That's it. That's the list. There is nothing wrong with a 10-1 team besides that they're a bit undertalented at a couple positions and apparently "depth" on the OL was a sick joke. There aren't culture problems, systemic coaching issues, etc.

A lot of the editorializing about how ND isn't close to Bama/Clemson/Ohio State misses the fact that NO ONE is close to these schools besides one-offs from other SEC teams. The PAC12 and Oklahoma and other Big Ten teams get throttled whenever they're given the opportunity to step up. Oklahoma every single year ends up in a playoff game where they get laughed off the field as bad or worse than what we just saw... yet no one goes "oh man Oklahoma and Lincoln Riley have a big problem and need to burn it all down."

At the end of the day, ND beat Clemson the first time around because the offense made a bunch of big plays. This time, the offense made none of those plays. Similarly, a kinda streaky Florida team competed with Bama this evening... because their offense made big plays. Winning in 2020 is as simple as how hard your passing game is to stop.

I think its a bit dramatic to act like the sky is falling or a previously undefeated team is headed the wrong direction because of one game against a generational QB paired with the top rated defense in college football led by the best DC in the country getting his second crack at a first year OC. The bigger question is what can ND do to land players like Lawrence... or Shipley... or many others they aren't even in the conversation for. And frankly, I'm not sure there is an answer short of brazen cheating. But it sort of is-what-it-is and people shouldn't pretend that the team has been steadily heading in the right direction since the debacle of 2016.

Lax, great post as always. My biggest take away is that we hired Charlie Weis in the wrong era of college football.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Not that insane when you remember that Lugg is the third string. I'd say you expect a major drop off when you go from All-American level center to third string guy who's never taken a meaningful snap at the position.

Per Kelly Lugg is THE 6th man and they have confidence in him at any OL position. Correll played because Kramer was out with appendectomy and Lugg played his spot.

 

[ThePiombino]

That game was incredibly disappointing, and it boils down to two primary issues:

1. Over a three game sample size, it's extremely clear that this offensive line is orders of magnitude worse without Jarrett Patterson. The OL was the #1 reason for offensive success, and it's just not playing at the same level. This not only killed ND's rushing attack for the third straight week, it is unlikely to get fixed until next season.

2. ND doesn't have a big boy passing game like you see at Alabama, Clemson, or Florida. They don't have an "uncoverable" WR or a top draft pick QB, and now they're also giving up more pressure.



That's it. That's the list. There is nothing wrong with a 10-1 team besides that they're a bit undertalented at a couple positions and apparently "depth" on the OL was a sick joke. There aren't culture problems, systemic coaching issues, etc.



A lot of the editorializing about how ND isn't close to Bama/Clemson/Ohio State misses the fact that NO ONE is close to these schools besides one-offs from other SEC teams. The PAC12 and Oklahoma and other Big Ten teams get throttled whenever they're given the opportunity to step up. Oklahoma every single year ends up in a playoff game where they get laughed off the field as bad or worse than what we just saw... yet no one goes "oh man Oklahoma and Lincoln Riley have a big problem and need to burn it all down."



At the end of the day, ND beat Clemson the first time around because the offense made a bunch of big plays. This time, the offense made none of those plays. Similarly, a kinda streaky Florida team competed with Bama this evening... because their offense made big plays. Winning in 2020 is as simple as how hard your passing game is to stop.



I think its a bit dramatic to act like the sky is falling or a previously undefeated team is headed the wrong direction because of one game against a generational QB paired with the top rated defense in college football led by the best DC in the country getting his second crack at a first year OC. The bigger question is what can ND do to land players like Lawrence... or Shipley... or many others they aren't even in the conversation for. And frankly, I'm not sure there is an answer short of brazen cheating. But it sort of is-what-it-is and people shouldn't pretend that the team has been steadily heading in the right direction since the debacle of 2016.

Ok, so then let me play devil's advocate and pose this question - you could argue this isn't the same team that beat Clemson earlier in the season. Do we still deserve a spot with a seemingly handicapped offense now? Resume says yes, but the committee considers injuries, right? Patterson's injury should warrant consideration for being left our in that case, no?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[tko]

Ok, so then let me play devil's advocate and pose this question - you could argue this isn't the same team that beat Clemson earlier in the season. Do we still deserve a spot with a seemingly handicapped offense now? Resume says yes, but the committee considers injuries, right? Patterson's injury should warranty consideration for being left our in that case, no?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

And I heard Olave? would still be out for OSU due to BIG Covid protocols, so OSU should be left out given how bad their offense struggled.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

I think its a bit dramatic to act like the sky is falling or a previously undefeated team is headed the wrong direction because of one game against a generational QB paired with the top rated defense in college football led by the best DC in the country getting his second crack at a first year OC. The bigger question is what can ND do to land players like Lawrence... or Shipley... or many others they aren't even in the conversation for. And frankly, I'm not sure there is an answer short of brazen cheating. But it sort of is-what-it-is and people shouldn't pretend that the team has been steadily heading in the right direction since the debacle of 2016.

To land the elite players, we need to capitalize on the NIL legislation. This is going to be a sea change in college football, and we need to take advantage of it. Other teams are already planning on how they will deal with it, but we need to do more than simply dealing with it. We need to use it as a way to catch up to the big boys. And, really, NIL should play into some of our advantages. We have a huge fanbase with national reach, a wealthy alumni (and subway alumni) network that is obsessed with football, and a national TV broadcast deal that is so well known and tilted in our favor that people have a derogatory nickname for the network.

Not every recruit will take the NIL legislation into account and eventually if we do it better than the big boys, they will adapt and catch up. But we do not need to sustain that advantage or get every recruit with it. We just need to use it to close the gap, at which point we should be able to sustain it. It can be like what happened with Clemson. They broke through with an elite QB leading a team to the game of its life against a better opponent, but now they are absolutely swimming in 5 star talent. If we play this right, we can get the couple players needed to put us over the top, and after that the rest of the talent should follow.

 

[EifertPower]

The most disappointing thing about yesterday's loss was how much faster Clemson looked than ND at every position. Also really disappointed ND's offense line couldn't do better. They always get heralded as one of if not the best offensive line in the country and yet they cant overcome one injury to their centern (who isn't their top 1 or 2 lineman in terms of NFL projections).

 

[Irishize]

I think 2020 ND would easily beat 2012, if that answers your question.

IIRC he 2012 team got rolled 42-14. I think this year’s Bama team will beat ND just as bad if not worse.

 

[Irishize]

The most disappointing thing about yesterday's loss was how much faster Clemson looked than ND at every position. Also really disappointed ND's offense line couldn't do better. They always get heralded as one of if not the best offensive line in the country and yet they cant overcome one injury to their centern (who isn't their top 1 or 2 lineman in terms of NFL projections).

I’m still amazed the ND media didn’t think the OL issues would be as crucial as they ended up.

 

[ThePiombino]

I’m still amazed the ND media didn’t think the OL issues would be as crucial as they ended up.

They had a lot of faith in Lugg while simultaneously acknowledging that center is his worst position. Maybe having a 6th OL who can "play anywhere" isn't as good as having specialized backups. Crosstrain, do what you gotta do to prepare for contingencies, but Lugg at center is very much forced and not helping things.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[BabyIrish]

I’m disappointed in our response to this loss. We are still a great team that can play better than what we did yesterday. Our o line can play better. Our secondary can play better. Our QB can play better.

We were literally two plays away from being up 17-7 against this juggernaut. Only two. If we ply action pass on the second and goal run we score. Clemson sold out on that run.

If Book and Davis connect we score.

The world is not coming to an end. We can still win this thing. And I fully expect a healthy correll to be ready to go against Bama. It will be different. Go Irish.

 

[IrishLax]

I’m disappointed in our response to this loss. We are still a great team that can play better than what we did yesterday. Our o line can play better. Our secondary can play better. Our QB can play better.

We were literally two plays away from being up 17-7 against this juggernaut. Only two. If we ply action pass on the second and goal run we score. Clemson sold out on that run.

If Book and Davis connect we score.

The world is not coming to an end. We can still win this thing. And I fully expect a healthy correll to be ready to go against Bama. It will be different. Go Irish.

Realistically, it "could have" been 17-17 at halftime because ND started the game with three quality drives. Given the offensive implosion after those three drives, there is a zero percent chance ND was ultimately going to win the game. Best case scenario would've been something like a close loss 30-24 or 27-24.

In reality... and reality is a bitch sometimes... the issue is that ND's offense is so flawed without a consistent running game that they got held to 3 points until garbage time. ND isn't great at stretching the field vertically, so if they can't run the ball then their entire passing game becomes some Northwestern-style pop gun attack which is way too easy for a defense like Clemson's to disrupt.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I’m disappointed in our response to this loss. We are still a great team that can play better than what we did yesterday. Our o line can play better. Our secondary can play better. Our QB can play better.

We were literally two plays away from being up 17-7 against this juggernaut. Only two. If we ply action pass on the second and goal run we score. Clemson sold out on that run.

If Book and Davis connect we score.

The world is not coming to an end. We can still win this thing. And I fully expect a healthy correll to be ready to go against Bama. It will be different. Go Irish.

I think this response shows how much of thin line ND operates on.

 

[Black Irish]

To land the elite players, we need to capitalize on the NIL legislation. This is going to be a sea change in college football, and we need to take advantage of it. Other teams are already planning on how they will deal with it, but we need to do more than simply dealing with it. We need to use it as a way to catch up to the big boys. And, really, NIL should play into some of our advantages. We have a huge fanbase with national reach, a wealthy alumni (and subway alumni) network that is obsessed with football, and a national TV broadcast deal that is so well known and tilted in our favor that people have a derogatory nickname for the network.

Not every recruit will take the NIL legislation into account and eventually if we do it better than the big boys, they will adapt and catch up. But we do not need to sustain that advantage or get every recruit with it. We just need to use it to close the gap, at which point we should be able to sustain it. It can be like what happened with Clemson. They broke through with an elite QB leading a team to the game of its life against a better opponent, but now they are absolutely swimming in 5 star talent. If we play this right, we can get the couple players needed to put us over the top, and after that the rest of the talent should follow.

I've never heard of this. What is it? All I can come up with is Nothing But Catholics.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

I've never heard of this. What is it? All I can come up with is Nothing But Catholics.

Notredame Broadcast Channel

Derogatory is probably too strong a word, but I didn't have my coffee yet and I couldn't think of anything better.

 

[Irish#1]

It boils down to talent and depth to even lessen your points.

The defence was bad in that game for whatever reason. Blame Lea or whoever. Our play makers from the first game vanished and they played in their heels after the first quarter the rest of the night. The score could have been so much worse, I fully believe Dabo backed off in order to rescue the 2 ACC team playoff dream.

On offence, we'll I don't blame Book as much as the oline. The oline was terrible. He was running for his life all night.

But again the narrative isn't "Well NDs oline wasn't full strength etc..." It is ND can't play on the same level.

I fully believe that outside of Meyer coming here that Kelly is the best man for this job right now. Consistency at the coordinators postion would help as well. Hard to be a consistent team when you are interviewing new coordinators every 3rd year..

I seriously doubt that. He kept TL and the O in a lot longer than he needed to and he kicked the late FG where they could have just run the ball and clock.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

I think 2020 ND would easily beat 2012, if that answers your question.

Yes, but 2020 Bama beats 2012 Bama so it's a wash.

lol


*edit- well, if 2012 Bama controls the clock with long sustained drives to keep 20 off the field, it could be closer than I first thought. 12 would need a crucial stop or two, but it's possible they win.

 

[Sea Turtle]

This is why the narrative exists. This is why we don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Notre Dame in BCS/NY6/CFP games last 25 years ...

'01 Fiesta: L 41-9 to Oregon State.
'06 Fiesta: L 34-20 to Ohio State.
'07 Sugar: L 41-14 to LSU.
'13 BCS title game: L 42-14 to Bama.
'16 Fiesta: L 44-28 to Ohio State.
'18 CFP: L 30-3 to Clemson.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Never any easy answers but you have to start with recruiting and then develop them once you get them. The Irish typically rank in the bottom half of the top 10 in recruiting and typically rank in the 5-10 range each season in the polls.

In recruiting you can't miss on positional groups in back to back cycles and not feel it at some point. Then you have to have a few guys who develop more than anticipated. Once you get your guys you have to develop them. While the Irish are typically lights out on OL/DL development, they seem to lack at some other positions. To be able to compete with the elites and win at that level consistently you better develop all positional groups. Otherwise the elites will exploit their weaknesses.

 

[NDRock]

The lack of playmakers on offense was the big question mark coming in and was the problem yesterday. It’s too hard to keep putting together long, sustained drives against great opponents. Sometimes you just need some guys who can take it to the house.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I can handle a loss. What I can't handle is the annual ND beat down. The truly elite teams suffer losses, but how many times has Bama, Clemson, and OSU been blown out? I went back five years just to gauge my emotions on this question.

*"Blown out" is subjective, but I generally use three scores, where two of them are TDs, as broad definition (+17). I've seen others use 21 points. I've even seen it described as "half your score, minus 7."

Clemson, since 2015: Upset twice by bad teams. Worst loss against LSU in the championship last year (17 pts). Some may call this a blow out. Sooo, once? In five years. With multiple wins over great teams. and Two (possibly a third this year) Nat. Titles.

Bama: One blow out loss at the hands of Clemson in the championship by 28 points. (They did lose by 12 to Auburn, which might be consider a blowout by Bama's standards...but not this). Sooo, once. See Clemson above....with multiple blowout wins over good teams and two National Championships in this span, potentially their third this year.

OSU: 31 point loss to Clemson in semi finals, 15 point loss to #5 Oklahoma (not a blowout but not great), completely blown out in the upset against Iowa by 31 points, a 29 point upset loss to Purdue. A national title in 2014 and multiple bowl wins give the perception that OSU is in the same tier as Clemson and Bama the last five years. I disagree. Personally, I put them in their own tier. Nevertheless, three blow out losses in five years with two (probably three) CFP appearances.

Notre Dame: 16 point loss to #7 OSU in Fiesta Bowl, 2016 was a disaster, but even then, their worst loss was by 18 to #12 USC. A 33 point loss to #7 Miami, and 18 point loss to #21 Stanford. A 27 point loss to eventual champ Clemson in the semis. A 31 point loss to #19 Michigan last year. And then last night's 24 point loss to Clemson. That's 6 blowouts in the last five years.

I took a peak at Georgia's last 5 years just to find a comparison and while they have the head-to-head games against ND, cumulatively they have very similar seasonal outcomes.

Anyways, where am I going with this? I'm just sick of the annual ass kicking that is inevitable. Six damn times in the last 5 years. If you omit the awful 2016 season, it's still 5 F'ing times during which ND finished ranked 11, 11, 5, 12, and TBD. Why is a top 10 team getting blown out so much?

I agree with LAX that this isn't a "burn it down" situation. But ND needs to figure out why they consistently get steam rolled at least once every year. Why can't ND land one of these top NFL draft pick QBs? Why, this far into BK's tenure do we have giant holes at WR in our roster? I could go on, but I'll end my rant here.