Netanyahu Address

GoIrish41

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I didn't watch the speech, because I was already worn out from the bickering over the invite to speak. Congress (The Legislative Branch) is it's own branch of the government. They don't need the Executive Branch's permission, or even approval, to invite someone to come and speak to them. The President is allowed to completely invalidate the Congress by overturning laws he doesn't like through Executive Orders, but he expects Congress to ask for his approval on a guest speaker?

This whole thing has stunk to high heaven. And it's not a Democrat v. Republican, or Republican v. Democrat thing. This is about what type of government you end up with, when politics becomes a profession. Politics was never intended to be a career. It was a person volunteering to serve their country for a few years, and then go back to their actual profession. But somewhere along the way, politics became a very lucrative industry, and people started to make it their profession. So now we have come to a place where our politicians are no longer concerned about what is best for our country. Their sole concern is for the furtherment of their professional career. Don't get caught up in their petty little games. Do the research to find out if your representative has been voting in the country's best interest, or in their own. And vote accordingly.

Also, don't let them turn a guest speaker in Congress into anything other than what it was: a guest speaker in Congress.


The founding fathers assigned the responsibility to "receive ambassadors and other public ministers" from foreign governments exclusively to the president. They did so to facilitate bilateral negotiations on complicated matters that required discression.

Surely you are not suggesting that they were so adamant about assigning responsibilities of each of the branches and the inherent checks and balances when designing the Constitution and decided that the part about receiving foreign dignitaries was intended to be a free-for-all. Boener extending this invitation behind the backs of the administration is unprecedented in American history -- unprecedented!!! Surely, if it was not a big deal, some cocky Congressman somewhere in American history would have done it, right?

So, I disagree completely with the bolded portion of your post. The Legislative Branch does, in point of fact, have to get the permission from the Executive Branch to invite foreign leaders to speak with them if they are bound by the U.S. Constitution. There really is not a debate about that.
 

Redbar

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Had a long drawn out response then my computer froze and I had to restart and lost it all... I'll just say the primary reason that the human condition continues to spiral from bad to worse, and very few things ever seem to get better is IMO our inability to discern Truth from lies and mind control.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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When do you think that Iran started hating the US?. Iran and the US were on pretty good terms until the 1950's when it started to fall apart because our CIA treated Iran like its personal playground.

Can you not understand that many of the countries that dislike us do so because of our previous actions, and that our current actions (or proposed actions) are just going to keep on creating new generations that dislike us. It keeps us stuck in an infinite loop of hate. I am hopeful about negotiations with Iran but I am not optimistic.

Also lets be honest, Netanyahu was mostly here to help himself get re-elected.

Also why would anyone believe Netanyahu?
Benjamin Netanyahu and Iran’s Nonexistent Nuclear Weapon: The Boy Who Cried Wolf | Global Research

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/02/brief-history-netanyahu-crying-wolf-iranian-nuclear-bomb/

First, I know my history damn well. Second, the US could propose a deal to Iran in which we handed them 100 nukes. Guess what...they will still want to destroy Israel and the US. The idea that we can "negotiate" with them so they stop hating us is naive and dangerous
 

kmoose

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The founding fathers assigned the responsibility to "receive ambassadors and other public ministers" from foreign governments exclusively to the president. They did so to facilitate bilateral negotiations on complicated matters that required discression.

Surely you are not suggesting that they were so adamant about assigning responsibilities of each of the branches and the inherent checks and balances when designing the Constitution and decided that the part about receiving foreign dignitaries was intended to be a free-for-all. Boener extending this invitation behind the backs of the administration is unprecedented in American history -- unprecedented!!! Surely, if it was not a big deal, some cocky Congressman somewhere in American history would have done it, right?

So, I disagree completely with the bolded portion of your post. The Legislative Branch does, in point of fact, have to get the permission from the Executive Branch to invite foreign leaders to speak with them if they are bound by the U.S. Constitution. There really is not a debate about that.

No, it doesn't grant the Executive Branch exclusive rights to receive ambassadors and other public ministers. Article 2 of the Constitution says,

SECTION. 3. He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.

Notice that Section 2, while not giving exclusive rights to receive ambassadors to the Executive Branch, does require that the President "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,". One could read that to mean that the President cannot simply issue Executive Orders, to get out of faithfully executing immigration laws that he doesn't like.
 

GoIrish41

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in all the years, paragraph 3 might be the most laughable thing you've posted. Treasonous? Based on what?! An ally of the US came here and spoke for his country. Ahmadinejad, the guy who wants to blow up Israel, has given speeches on US soil. As for the invitation, you're nuts. First, Bibi doesn't need an invitation from any president. Assume he did...the pres can ignore and circumvent Congress but not the other way around? Get real.

OK, perhaps treason was too strong a statement ... Maybe you can help me find the right word to describe someone who has abused his constitutional power to use a foreign leader running for office in his own country as a political chess piece to blow up ongoing negotiations with another foreign nation to achieve the goal of both the United States and Isreal. Treason may not be the right word. What is a better word ... help me out.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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The founding fathers assigned the responsibility to "receive ambassadors and other public ministers" from foreign governments exclusively to the president. They did so to facilitate bilateral negotiations on complicated matters that required discression.

Surely you are not suggesting that they were so adamant about assigning responsibilities of each of the branches and the inherent checks and balances when designing the Constitution and decided that the part about receiving foreign dignitaries was intended to be a free-for-all. Boener extending this invitation behind the backs of the administration is unprecedented in American history -- unprecedented!!! Surely, if it was not a big deal, some cocky Congressman somewhere in American history would have done it, right?

So, I disagree completely with the bolded portion of your post. The Legislative Branch does, in point of fact, have to get the permission from the Executive Branch to invite foreign leaders to speak with them if they are bound by the U.S. Constitution. There really is not a debate about that.

A staunch supporter of Obama citing the Constitution? Oh this is good. Bibi wasn't here to negotiate or do anything like that behind the back of the WH. The fsct that you used the word treason is still beyond comprehension. He was a guest speaker, albeit one who made our pres look weak and inexperienced.
 

BobbyMac

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The founding fathers assigned the responsibility to "receive ambassadors and other public ministers" from foreign governments exclusively to the president. They did so to facilitate bilateral negotiations on complicated matters that required discression.

Surely you are not suggesting that they were so adamant about assigning responsibilities of each of the branches and the inherent checks and balances when designing the Constitution and decided that the part about receiving foreign dignitaries was intended to be a free-for-all. Boener extending this invitation behind the backs of the administration is unprecedented in American history -- unprecedented!!! Surely, if it was not a big deal, some cocky Congressman somewhere in American history would have done it, right?

So, I disagree completely with the bolded portion of your post. The Legislative Branch does, in point of fact, have to get the permission from the Executive Branch to invite foreign leaders to speak with them if they are bound by the U.S. Constitution. There really is not a debate about that.

This is all fine but if this is meant to defend your accusation of treason you need to go back and look at what constitutes treason as it pertains to the US government and how that differs from its various other definitions.

.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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OK, perhaps treason was too strong a statement ... Maybe you can help me find the right word to describe someone who has abused his constitutional power to use a foreign leader running for office in his own country as a political chess piece to blow up ongoing negotiations with another foreign nation to achieve the goal of both the United States and Isreal. Treason may not be the right word. What is a better word ... help me out.

See Kmoose...thank you and goodnight. Wait wait...achieving the goals of US and Israel!? What? Lol get a grip man
 

BobbyMac

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OK, perhaps treason was too strong a statement ... Maybe you can help me find the right word to describe someone who has abused his constitutional power to use a foreign leader running for office in his own country as a political chess piece to blow up ongoing negotiations with another foreign nation to achieve the goal of both the United States and Isreal. Treason may not be the right word. What is a better word ... help me out.

Genius?


.
 

IrishinSyria

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The founding fathers assigned the responsibility to "receive ambassadors and other public ministers" from foreign governments exclusively to the president. They did so to facilitate bilateral negotiations on complicated matters that required discression.

Surely you are not suggesting that they were so adamant about assigning responsibilities of each of the branches and the inherent checks and balances when designing the Constitution and decided that the part about receiving foreign dignitaries was intended to be a free-for-all. Boener extending this invitation behind the backs of the administration is unprecedented in American history -- unprecedented!!! Surely, if it was not a big deal, some cocky Congressman somewhere in American history would have done it, right?

So, I disagree completely with the bolded portion of your post. The Legislative Branch does, in point of fact, have to get the permission from the Executive Branch to invite foreign leaders to speak with them if they are bound by the U.S. Constitution. There really is not a debate about that.
'

Article II Section 3 of the Constitution, in case people were wondering.

But there's more. The Logan Act (18 U.S.C. § 953) is a federal law passed in 1799. It says

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.

Notice that it says "Any citizen of the United States." This applies to everyone except for the executive, who is exempt from the act because he has "the authority of the United States" from the Constitution. In turn, he can give that authority to others (i.e. the state department.) The statute unambiguously applies to Boehner.

Next, it says "carries on any correspondence ... with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof." Bibi is clearly an officer or agent of Israel, a foreign government.

In 1936, the Supreme Court in Waldron v. British Petroleum Co. held that

"[T]he President alone has the power to speak or listen as a representative of the nation. He makes treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate; but he alone negotiates. Into the field of negotiation the Senate cannot intrude, and Congress itself is powerless to invade it."
.

Now, in order for a Logan Act prosecution to happen, the executive branch would have to authorize it. That's not going to happen. If it did, there's a good chance that the Supreme Court would overrule the Logan Act for vagueness. That all being said, as things stand, the Logan Act is federal law, it stems from the Constitution, and there's a good chance that Boehner violated it.
 

kmoose

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A staunch supporter of Obama citing the Constitution? Oh this is good. Bibi wasn't here to negotiate or do anything like that behind the back of the WH. The fsct that you used the word treason is still beyond comprehension. He was a guest speaker, albeit one who made our pres look weak and inexperienced.

Did he? I mean, I haven't watched the speech, but I have obviously heard about it. It seems to me like Netanyahu and Obama disagree. I wouldn't read any more into it than that. Obama wants to do something , while Netanyahu seems to want to wait on the perfect scenario to come along. I get both of their stances. The only thing that I have seen that could go bad for Obama is his own comment about "Netanyahu hasn't offered any answers of his own, only criticism.". This seems to be Obama's answer to just about every question about his actions. Just in case your lackeys haven't told you, Mr. President: Just because someone else doesn't have a good idea, that doesn't make your idea good by default.
 

kmoose

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'

Article II Section 3 of the Constitution, in case people were wondering.

But there's more. The Logan Act (18 U.S.C. § 953) is a federal law passed in 1799. It says



Notice that it says "Any citizen of the United States." This applies to everyone except for the executive, who is exempt from the act because he has "the authority of the United States" from the Constitution. In turn, he can give that authority to others (i.e. the state department.) The statute unambiguously applies to Boehner.

Next, it says "carries on any correspondence ... with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof." Bibi is clearly an officer or agent of Israel, a foreign government.

In 1936, the Supreme Court in Waldron v. British Petroleum Co. held that

.

Now, in order for a Logan Act prosecution to happen, the executive branch would have to authorize it. That's not going to happen. If it did, there's a good chance that the Supreme Court would overrule the Logan Act for vagueness. That all being said, as things stand, the Logan Act is federal law, it stems from the Constitution, and there's a good chance that Boehner violated it.

In order for a Logan Act prosecution to happen, you would also have to prove
intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States

I think, in the case of Netanyahu's address to Congress, you would have a hard time proving that that was Boehner's intent.
 

Whiskeyjack

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From The National Interest's Paul Pillar:

One of the strangest aspects of the frantic crying of alarm over Iran's nuclear program—with the crying having reached its most publicized peak in Benjamin Netanyahu's Republican/Likud campaign rally in the House chamber—is that the chief crier is the government of a country that not only has the most advanced nuclear program in the Middle East but has kept that program completely out of the reach and scrutiny of any international control and inspection regime. It is hard to think of a better example in international politics of the pot calling the kettle black, and in this case the pot is much blacker than the kettle—and was so even before Iran put its program under the unprecedented restrictions and intrusive inspections to which it agreed more than a year ago in negotiations with the United States and the rest of the P5+1. As for any military dimensions (the focus, of course, of all that crying when it comes to Iran), although neither Israel nor the United States says publicly that Israel has nuclear weapons, just about everyone else on the planet who says anything on the subject takes it as a given that it does, and that it has a fairly sizable arsenal of such weapons.

The person outside government who has studied the Israeli nuclear program most extensively is Avner Cohen, an Israeli-born scholar currently based in the United States. Cohen has written two books on the subject, Israel and the Bomb and The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's Bargain with the Bomb. He probably knows more than anyone outside the Israeli government about the Israeli program and the strategic thinking underlying it. It thus is especially interesting to hear what Cohen has to say about the current battle over the Iranian program. In a commentary just published in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Cohen writes about how, as I discussed the other day, the actions and lobbying of Benjamin Netanyahu are at odds with his own alarmist rhetoric, and about what this implies concerning Netanyahu's motivations.

Cohen criticizes Netanyahu's drumbeat message that the agreement being negotiated would be very bad for Israel; he notes the “potential advantages” of the agreement, which is from the standpoint of Israel's interests a “reasonable compromise.” He points out that the demand to prevent any Iranian enrichment of uranium will never be realized, and that the demand has no basis in the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

Cohen goes on to state that the emerging agreement “also contains unique advantages barely discussed in Israel. It clearly distances Iran from a nuclear bomb—from a few weeks as was the case in 2012 to about a year. Most importantly, it establishes a regime of safeguards and transparency for almost a generation.”

Cohen concludes by pointedly describing what Netanyahu's scaremongering efforts are really all about, which have to do with Netanyahu having made such alarmism his political signature music, on which he relies both to maintain political power in Israel and to rationalize his policies to the outside world:

“Despite its flaws, the proposed agreement is far from bad for Israel—the only nuclear power in the Middle East—but it is very bad for Netanyahu. The agreement offers Israel almost a generation, or even more if it succeeds, in which Netanyahu won’t be able to sow fear about Iran as an existential danger. It would leave Netanyahu as a leader whose raison d’être has been taken away from him.”

Netanyahu's narrowly-motivated efforts to destroy the diplomacy with Iran are not only directly contrary to U.S. interests; they also are contrary to Israel's interests. Those who really do care about Israel and its security, rather than just ritualistically referring to them while swaying and bobbing up and down to Netanyahu's music, need to realize that.

Don't make the mistake of conflating Likud's interests with those of Israel generally. Our interests--and those of Israel, when properly understood--are in regional stability. War with Iran and the toppling of Assad appeal to Likud and our secular Sunni allies for obvious reasons, but they would not promote stability.

Israel has just as many scheming, self-interested pols as we do.
 
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pkt77242

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First, I know my history damn well. Second, the US could propose a deal to Iran in which we handed them 100 nukes. Guess what...they will still want to destroy Israel and the US. The idea that we can "negotiate" with them so they stop hating us is naive and dangerous

So what is your answer then? Go to war? Do nothing?

Um, you don't negotiate with them to stop hating us. You negotiate with them because war isn't always the answer. You negotiate with them to find a common ground that is acceptable to both countries. A wonderful byproduct of that is that, yes someday they probably will get along with us better (I am looking at countries such as China as a good example). What is naive and dangerous is this idea that we can just throw our military might around all over the world without repercussions. Shockingly when we keep giving countries a reason to hate us, the hate doesn't go away and it heightens the risk to us. There is a time for war and a time for negotiation, you have yet to articulate a single reason why negotiation is bad other then it is "dangerous and naive" which to me sounds like you have pretty shitty reasons when you have to start fear mongering.
 

DillonHall

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You are absolutely right, the GOP's open contempt and disrespect for the White House is an embarrassing, not only for the Congress but also for the country.

More disrespectful is the White House's refusal to reverse course on their failed policies after the American public clearly rejected them last November. Remember that?
 

IrishinSyria

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No, it doesn't grant the Executive Branch exclusive rights to receive ambassadors and other public ministers.

Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution says:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

According to your logic, this doesn't grant Congress "exclusive" power and thus the Executive or the Judicial branch could do so as well without violating the constitution.

Your logic is wrong. The enumerated powers are exclusive.
 

GoIrish41

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A staunch supporter of Obama citing the Constitution? Oh this is good. Bibi wasn't here to negotiate or do anything like that behind the back of the WH. The fsct that you used the word treason is still beyond comprehension. He was a guest speaker, albeit one who made our pres look weak and inexperienced.

I am a liberal democrat who is tired of the stupid tactics of the right wing of the GOP that diminish the office of the presidency. Have all the disagreements you want about the man, but don't tarnish the office. This was a tactic meant to, in your words, make the leader of this country look "weak and inexperienced" on the world stage. How is that good for this country? How is that helping with ongoing sensitive negotiations with Iran to ensure they don't build nuclear weapons? He is a guest speaker who was invited by the Speaker to try to embarass the president, and to try to blow up said negotiations. It was a typical GOP stunt that will inevitably blow up in their face. I forget the exact number, but something like 70% of the country feels like he was out of line in inviting Bibi to speak in Congress. And, as IrishinSyria's post alludes to far better than any of mine, he violated US law.
 

Redbar

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Very good point Whiskey, btw, just how did Israel acquire their nuclear weapons anyway? They have only been a country for about 60 years, when did they go nuclear? Where are their reactors? how many do they have? Or does anyone have a fix on this?
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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So what is your answer then? Go to war? Do nothing?

Um, you don't negotiate with them to stop hating us. You negotiate with them because war isn't always the answer. You negotiate with them to find a common ground that is acceptable to both countries. A wonderful byproduct of that is that, yes someday they probably will get along with us better (I am looking at countries such as China as a good example). What is naive and dangerous is this idea that we can just throw our military might around all over the world without repercussions. Shockingly when we keep giving countries a reason to hate us, the hate doesn't go away and it heightens the risk to us. There is a time for war and a time for negotiation, you have yet to articulate a single reason why negotiation is bad other then it is "dangerous and naive" which to me sounds like you have pretty shitty reasons when you have to start fear mongering.

Not once did I mention war or military action of any kind, so go shove that one. It is dangerous and naive to allow Iran and its leaders of a 9th century mindset to continue its nuclear program the way it is. Also, good luck during your negotiations in finding common ground with said 9th century leaders...they'd dance in the streets if you were killed. A country with nuclenuclear capability that wants to destroy Israel and the US isn't fear mongering. It's reality of the world we live in.

My plan? For now...money talks. Economic sanctions work. Put more on them. Do NOT strike a deal allowing them to do whatever they deem "reasonable." And remind them that any attack against an ally of the US will be met with appropriate response.

How bout you?
 

kmoose

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I am a liberal democrat who is tired of the stupid tactics of the right wing of the GOP that diminish the office of the presidency. Have all the disagreements you want about the man, but don't tarnish the office. This was a tactic meant to, in your words, make the leader of this country look "weak and inexperienced" on the world stage. How is that good for this country? How is that helping with ongoing sensitive negotiations with Iran to ensure they don't build nuclear weapons? He is a guest speaker who was invited by the Speaker to try to embarass the president, and to try to blow up said negotiations. It was a typical GOP stunt that will inevitably blow up in their face. I forget the exact number, but something like 70% of the country feels like he was out of line in inviting Bibi to speak in Congress. And, as IrishinSyria's post alludes to far better than any of mine, he violated US law.

Are you tired of Obama's stupid tactics that diminish the office of the Presidency?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a3IWq3CXHyc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tell me again what the DHS budget fight was all about? Obama's Executive Orders, you say? You mean the same ones that he pledged not to do?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UQXZoM__vU0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tell me again when Guantanamo closed?
 

GoIrish41

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More disrespectful is the White House's refusal to reverse course on their failed policies after the American public clearly rejected them last November. Remember that?

Oh, so you think these two things are equal:

1. That the President doesn't automatically become a Tea Bagger when the House and Senate go to the republicans

2. A Republican Speaker violates U.S. Constitutiional law to invite a foreign leader to Congress for a campaign event in which you knew he was going to try to humiliate the president while the country is in sensitive negotiations over nuclear weapons.

Got it.
 

IrishinSyria

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I think, in the case of Netanyahu's address to Congress, you would have a hard time proving that that was Boehner's intent.


I agree, and that's why I raised the issue of vagueness, but it's hardly a stretch. First, you have the unambiguous language of the Court in Curtis Wright. But also, you'd have a few arguments under the plain meaning of the statute.

intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States

Possibility one

conduct : Giving a speech.

of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof: Bibi

in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States: About how to negotiate with Iran.

Possibility two

Read the statute as "intent to...defeat the measures of the United States" and claim that the invitation was an attempt to undermine negotiations with Iran (a measure of the United States). I agree that it's harder to nail down "intent" if you go down this route.


Again, I'm not predicting Boehner's headed for jail, just pointing out that there's a strong case to be made that he did, in fact, violate the law.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Very good point Whiskey, btw, just how did Israel acquire their nuclear weapons anyway? They have only been a country for about 60 years, when did they go nuclear? Where are their reactors? how many do they have? Or does anyone have a fix on this?

Some of it was stolen from us by Israeli spies, but much of it was secretly sold to them by NATO countries. The same countries who are now trying to convince Iran not to build its own bomb.
 

kmoose

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Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution says:



According to your logic, this doesn't grant Congress "exclusive" power and thus the Executive or the Judicial branch could do so as well without violating the constitution.

Your logic is wrong. The enumerated powers are exclusive.

In our Republic, the US Congress does NOT have "exclusive" power to raise taxes. States have their own taxes, as do many municipalities. Article 2 simply says that the President must receive them. It could just as easily mean that the President may not refuse to meet with the duly appointed Ambassador from another country.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I am a liberal democrat who is tired of the stupid tactics of the right wing of the GOP that diminish the office of the presidency. Have all the disagreements you want about the man, but don't tarnish the office. This was a tactic meant to, in your words, make the leader of this country look "weak and inexperienced" on the world stage. How is that good for this country? How is that helping with ongoing sensitive negotiations with Iran to ensure they don't build nuclear weapons? He is a guest speaker who was invited by the Speaker to try to embarass the president, and to try to blow up said negotiations. It was a typical GOP stunt that will inevitably blow up in their face. I forget the exact number, but something like 70% of the country feels like he was out of line in inviting Bibi to speak in Congress. And, as IrishinSyria's post alludes to far better than any of mine, he violated US law.

Let me hand you a tissue. When you're done drying your tears, read this:

1) No one has done more to undermine our ally Israel or the US Constitution than this president.

2) Bibi did his job, to act in his country's best interests and ask the US to keep Israel in mind during these "negotiations."

3) He was a guest speaker in Congress. Don't like it? Go pound sand. Bet ya my next paycheck the DOJ doesn't file anything against Boehner. Treason...bahahahaha
 

GoIrish41

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Are you tired of Obama's stupid tactics that diminish the office of the Presidency?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a3IWq3CXHyc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tell me again what the DHS budget fight was all about? Obama's Executive Orders, you say? You mean the same ones that he pledged not to do?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UQXZoM__vU0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tell me again when Guantanamo closed?

I could make a strong argument that Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan and Dick Nixon diminished the office of the presidency more than any other presidents in my lifetime. With Clinton's Monica issues and Reagan's Iran Contra problems, and Nixon's Watergate scandal, THEY embarassed the country. A president not able to fulfil his presidential promises in the face of the competing party's opposition is hardly on the same level. Is the use of executive orders an embarassment? If so, every preseident shares that disgrace ... several much more than Obama. It is simply intellectually dishonest to suggest that keeping GITMO open was Obama's doing.
 

kmoose

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I agree, and that's why I raised the issue of vagueness, but it's hardly a stretch. First, you have the unambiguous language of the Court in Curtis Wright. But also, you'd have a few arguments under the plain meaning of the statute.



Possibility one

conduct : Giving a speech.

of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof: Bibi

in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States: About how to negotiate with Iran.

Possibility two

Read the statute as "intent to...defeat the measures of the United States" and claim that the invitation was an attempt to undermine negotiations with Iran (a measure of the United States). I agree that it's harder to nail down "intent" if you go down this route.


Again, I'm not predicting Boehner's headed for jail, just pointing out that there's a strong case to be made that he did, in fact, violate the law.

Keep in mind, as well............ any treaty that the President negotiates with a foreign government is not worth the paper it is printed on, unless Congress approves it. I'm not sure of the legal definition of treaty, and if any agreement with Iran would fall under it, but it would be an even stronger argument for Congress to say, "This was background for us to make an informed decision on any agreement that the Executive Branch is likely to put forth for our approval."
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I could make a strong argument that Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan and Dick Nixon diminished the office of the presidency more than any other presidents in my lifetime. With Clinton's Monica issues and Reagan's Iran Contra problems, and Nixon's Watergate scandal, THEY embarassed the country. A president not able to fulfil his presidential promises in the face of the competing party's opposition is hardly on the same level. Is the use of executive orders an embarassment? If so, every preseident shares that disgrace ... several much more than Obama. It is simply intellectually dishonest to suggest that keeping GITMO open was Obama's doing.

No competing party was there to stop him in 2009 and 2010. Super majority. No excuses. The guy had no one in his way, could've ended two wars, could've passed amnesty, could've closed Gitmo but...sigh. lol
 

IrishinSyria

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Keep in mind, as well............ any treaty that the President negotiates with a foreign government is not worth the paper it is printed on, unless Congress approves it. I'm not sure of the legal definition of treaty, and if any agreement with Iran would fall under it, but it would be an even stronger argument for Congress to say, "This was background for us to make an informed decision on any agreement that the Executive Branch is likely to put forth for our approval."

I mean that's fine... but all they would have had to do was follow the protocol of having the Department of State arrange for the visit if that was the case. Which is, I guess, the point I'm really driving at. I don't think Boehner looked at his Constitution before he did this. I don't think he consulted his lawyers. I doubt he'd even heard of Curtis Wright or The Logan Act. But that's not the point. He deliberately opted to give Obama the run-around for political theater. And that's what I don't like about the whole thing. We've transformed our national partisan gridlock into an international spectacle.
 

GoIrish41

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No competing party was there to stop him in 2009 and 2010. Super majority. No excuses. The guy had no one in his way, could've ended two wars, could've passed amnesty, could've closed Gitmo but...sigh. lol

Give it a rest Lep. According to you, he was supposed to fix immigration, close GITMO, end two wars, stop global warming, cure cancer, smooth over centuries of sour race relations ... everything except try to fix healthcare, which was the worst thing any president has ever done in the history of the world, even though 10 million more people have healthcare today than they did prior to ACA. How much shit do you think can get done in a two year span when you have a bunch of assholes on the other side continuously throwing up roadblocks because "Our number one priority is to ensure the president does not get a second term." Anything he would have gotten done in those two years you would have said were the beginning of the end of our civilization, and you would be condemning him for it.
 
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