ND Oversold on Kelly?

[BGIF]

That is such a BS argument. Did we suspend Floyd for any games after his 3rd alcohol offense? We don't live in a glass house...can't throw stones.

Really? Looks like you're the one running from the argument here.

BTW, Floyd was dealt with by Res Life. And Floyd had a semester suspension from student activities like others got before him.

Tell me who in the TOP 25 has a student/faculty board that makes student deportment decisions besides ND? At OSU, etc the football coach does that unilaterally.

 

[kmoose]

but Stanford, Oregon, LSU, UGA (had a dip there, but played for SEC Championships consistently), Alabama (outlier...I get it), Ohio State, Florida (until Urban went nuts), South Carolina (under Spurrier once he got that thing rolling), have all had runs of consistency in the last few years...no fewer than 8 wins and usually double digit wins.

Oregon - under NCAA investigation for paying for recruits. All of the evidence points not only to their guilt, but to them clumsily trying to cover it up.

LSU - Honey Badger train wreck. Need I say more?

UGA - Two former UGA football players arrested on felony charges | DogBytes Online Two examples of the kind of fine young men that Georgia recruited, to get to this point.

Alabama - Has had numerous arrest issues on the team.

Ohio State - Tatgate, Cardale Jones' infamous tweet:

"Why should we have to go to class if we came here to play FOOTBALL, we ain't come to play SCHOOL classes are POINTLESS,"

Florida - Aaron Hernandez, Chris Rainey, and a long list of other guys.

South Carolina - No major off the field issues come to mind, immediately. But their "run" is a bit exaggerated. Spurrier is 66-37, in 8 seasons. That's an 8-4 average. He has had two 10+ win seasons. 2011 and 2012. That's significant in that his first 10+ win season didn't come until his 7th year in the program.

The point is this: other than South Carolina, every example you gave is one that will never fly at ND, for character and academic reasons. That's one of the things that makes ND special.

 

[Cackalacky]

No where have I seen anyone mention Kelly's quotes about building an "SEC" like defense or team. I don't think he has any intention of building a team like Cinncinatti.

 

[Wild Bill]

That is such a BS argument. Did we suspend Floyd for any games after his 3rd alcohol offense? We don't live in a glass house...can't throw stones.

It's not a BS argument. Floyd could have taken the easy way out and played in the NFL. Instead, he decided to grow up, asked the University for a path to rejoin his team and redeemed himself. He did everything that was asked of him, got his degree and was a first round pick. Suspending him without further consideration would have accomplished nothing. The University made the right decision in his case and should be applauded for giving him a chance. As far as I'm concerned, ND fulfilled the promise they make to many recruits - come here a boy and we'll make you a man.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Like where?

I would probably put Texas, USC, Alabama (now), Florida and Michigan on that list. Obviously this is not an exact science.

Guys like Ron Zook, Frank Solich, and Mack Brown are coming to mind.

 

[irishpat183]

While I am at it...I am tired of fans like you. Always grasping for an excuse instead of holding people accountable for their inabilities or lack of action. That is what is wrong with America...we give kids a ribbon for participating and pat them on the back for trying. This is a multi-billion dollar industry and there are expectations that come with the investments made in coaches, facilities, and the like. If you want to cheer for a team that under-performs and wins 8 games a year and every one is happy, then maybe you need to find another team to cheer for.

Thank you. Why the hell my comment got deleted is beyond me.

 

[Pachuco]

I think those of you crying about it are oversold on just how easy it should be for a place like Notre Dame to win a national title. The difficulty/rarity for such an event is not an excuse. It's reality. It's understanding how the climate of college sports/youth has shifted, and just what we are up against. I'd like to see the most heralded coaches in CFB take on the task of ND. Many of them have intentionally avoided this job, and there are some pretty specific reasons as to why they have. So be a fan because you love the school, expect greatness on all levels, but don't be delusional on just how difficult it will be for us to get back on top.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Isn't Time of Possession also impacted by how many 3 and outs your defense produces?

By the way how is ND's defense doing on Take Aways, also a TOP factor?

Defense certainly is impacting TOP.

If you look at punts per score, our defense is forcing 1.1 punts per offensive score, down from 2.1 a year prior. On offense, we are at 1.2 this year versus 0.9 last year.

In both cases, we are worse than last year. IMO, what is killing ND this year is that we are averaging nearly 4 more incompletions a game this year while only throwing it roughly 5 times more per game. The yards per pass attempt is down as is our yards per rushing attempt. The one good thing is that our sack % is improved and is one of the best in the nation. The other killer is penalties, where ND is averaging about 1 more penalty per game and about 10 yards more per game.

 

[kmoose]

I would probably put Texas, USC, Alabama (now), Florida and Michigan on that list. Obviously this is not an exact science.

Guys like Ron Zook, Frank Solich, and Mack Brown are coming to mind.

Well....... Mack Brown still has a job, so you can't count him............. yet!

Zook averaged 7-5. That's one game over .500.

Solich, on the other hand, averaged 9-3, for his six seasons. I would say he is a good example. But that was also 10 years ago.

That's far from "many".

 

[irishpat183]

No where have I seen anyone mention Kelly's quotes about building an "SEC" like defense or team. I don't think he has any intention of building a team like Cinncinatti.

Do we want to win?

 

[IrishLax]

Here is how to look at this:
Player Development - A. He's taken guys who were anywhere from "bad" to "meh" and made them awesome by putting them in the right situation to succeed. Does anyone think Harrison Smith would've been a 1st round draft pick playing for Weis? Eifert? Floyd improved from a 3rd round grade to a top 10 pick thanks to another year with Kelly.
Recruiting - C+. Do not be fooled by some lofty rankings. When you adjust for kids who immediately transferred or otherwise washed out, the classes are mediocre. The 2011 class was top 20ish when you remove Lynch and Prestwood. The 2012 class was a total disaster. The 2013 class was good, but the #3 ranking was due to having EV, Bryant, Redfield, and Smith. EV is already gone dropping us down to 7th and if Bryant were to wash out we'd be sitting outside the top 10. The 2014 class looks very average... blame UNC bags o' cash, girlfriends, parents, whatever... it's just not shaping up to be a top 5 class. Compare our recruiting/player retention to a Michigan or Ohio State and it's obvious it's just average.
Leadership - B+. His style doesn't jive with some people, but there is no doubt that the team is tougher and more focused with him at the helm. He also navigates the waters of Notre Dame pretty well.
Xs and Os - D. There is no legitimate reason why 4 years in our offense is still this boring/bad. He's not an inventive or innovative coach and he also doesn't have an offensive coordinator on his staff to make up for that. On defense, we've played a simplistic scheme with superior talent to generally good results. Remove the superior talent this year, and all of a sudden the ILBs and secondary get abused for big plays.

So when you grade him out completely it's somewhere around a B. If you graded out someone like Saban they'd be A, A, A, B. If you graded out someone like Chip Kelly they'd be A, C, A, A+. So in a sense... yeah, if you're expecting Kelly to be the best in the business then you're "oversold"... at the same time, there are very few out there better than him. His main deficiencies, IMO, could be easily corrected by getting a real OC and some tweaks to recruiting strategy.

 

[irishpat183]

And for those that keep pointing to SEC troubles and arrests...don't kid yourselves, we've had our own problems here.

Some, too disgusting to bring up. ND is not some holy program. Are we better than most? Sure. But we have our own share of shame.


Drop that argument.

 

[Cackalacky]

While I am at it...I am tired of fans like you. Always grasping for an excuse instead of holding people accountable for their inabilities or lack of action. That is what is wrong with America...we give kids a ribbon for participating and pat them on the back for trying. This is a multi-billion dollar industry and there are expectations that come with the investments made in coaches, facilities, and the like. If you want to cheer for a team that under-performs and wins 8 games a year and every one is happy, then maybe you need to find another team to cheer for.

You really don't get why ND is different do you? If you did, you would realize that ND does hold people accountable (see firings of Davie/Willingham/and Weis), changing of Athletic directors, clashes with Admin and Res Life, academic standards and coursework beyond anything all but a handful of schools require... I could go on but it would fall on deaf ears.

These are not excuses, these are the expected STANDARDS of an ND student athlete, which are much higher than another consistent BCS caliber team. I, for one, am proud of that.

 

[Cackalacky]

Do we want to win?

Of course. The BCS standard of winning is the SEC model and players. Its the main reason we are solidly in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Texas and California recruiting.

 

[ulukinatme]

Are you serious? We just ran the ball for 220 yards on Saturday. Also, you're the first person I've seen that thinks Warinner > Hiestand.

While I'm on the fence at this point in the season, I still think Hiestand is > Warinner. Certainly from a recruiting standpoint Hiestand is better...but I don't discredit what Warinner did to get our running game jump started through line improvement. He's improved OSU quite a bit too. Part of me hopes that the regression in the running game isn't due to some eventual fallout from Warriner's departure a year ago. We're certainly pass blocking great this year, but I'm not sure about run blocking aside from the crazy gains against OU.

Holtz reloaded because he had players on his THREE deep that could start today. But when Vinny Cerrato's players were gone, he had to rebuild. I gather you didn't see Holtz's '94, '95, and '96 teams.

Think Cerrato would want to come back to ND? Of course, some of the recruiting tactics he used back then aren't allowed today, like being able to contact a recruit from the sideline of a bowl game. Looks like Cerrato is just hosting a radio show these days since he was let go from the Redskins office awhile back.

No where have I seen anyone mention Kelly's quotes about building an "SEC" like defense or team. I don't think he has any intention of building a team like Cinncinatti.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this thread, but I did mention today about Kelly's arrival to ND and the perception that we were gaining an offensive minded coach. I distinctly remember reading that Kelly knew coming to ND would not be about manufacturing offense. BK said at Cinci and previous stops the job was to get butts in the seats, so they had flashy offenses. Thats not a problem at ND, and he's right. The job is to win, which is why he's tried to focus on defense.

 

[irishpat183]

You really don't get why ND is different do you? If you did, you would realize that ND does hold people accountable (see firings of Davie/Willingham/and Weis), changing of Athletic directors, clashes with Admin and Res Life, academic standards and coursework beyond anything all but a handful of schools require... I could go on but it would fall on deaf ears.

These are not excuses, these are the expected STANDARDS of an ND student athlete, which are much higher than and consistent BCS caliber team. I, for one, am proud of that.

Good for you! But for the rest of us that want a nat title in the next, say, 100 yrs, I wouldn't mind being a little loose if you know what I mean...

Hey, isn't it the catholic thing to do for us to go out to these bad areas and give a kid, who otherwise wouldn't be accepted, a place to play football and really utlize his talent?!?!?

I can think of no greater service to the community.

 

[kmoose]

And for those that keep pointing to SEC troubles and arrests...don't kid yourselves, we've had our own problems here.

Some, too disgusting to bring up. ND is not some holy program. Are we better than most? Sure. But we have our own share of shame.


Drop that argument.

It's a valid argument. Look at where we are, without Golson, right now. Imagine if we had two or three other stud starters gone for the year?

 

[irishpat183]

Of course. The BCS standard of winning is the SEC model and players. Its the main reason we are solidly in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Texas and California recruiting.

Ok...then what's the problem?

If we have the coach, the system, and now you're telling me we have the recruits.....What's the deal?

 

[Cackalacky]

Good for you! But for the rest of us that want a nat title in the next, say, 100 yrs, I wouldn't mind being a little loose if you know what I mean...

Hey, isn't it the catholic thing to do for us to go out to these bad areas and give a kid, who otherwise wouldn't be accepted, a place to play football and really utlize his talent?!?!?

I can think of no greater service to the community.

C'mon pat. You really do need another team. Maybe you are jesting?

You're a Redskins fan man...surely you are used to a sucky team? AMIRITE

 

[Cackalacky]

Ok...then what's the problem?

If we have the coach, the system, and now you're telling me we have the recruits.....What's the deal?

You might have missed my post above. IMO this year:

I have a hard time believing people cannot see the trees for the forest.
1. Our starting QB f'ed up.
2. All of our leadership from last year graduated and no one has stepped up.
3. We are down to like 75 scholarship players due to injuries, retirements, transfers, and whatever other crazy BS that happened last year with recruits.
4. This was the year we were supposed to have depth across the board. We very well could have a "2012 USC" year this year because of #3.
5. We have played 15 or more freshmen this year but not the one's everyone wants.
6. The infrastructure of the program is at its highest level I can remember since Holtz and that was before recruiting rules changed.
7. When was the last time we had 4 consecutive winning seasons and a undefeated regular season?

I am ok with the progress Kelly has made.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Here is how to look at this:
Player Development - A. He's taken guys who were anywhere from "bad" to "meh" and made them awesome by putting them in the right situation to succeed. Does anyone think Harrison Smith would've been a 1st round draft pick playing for Weis? Eifert? Floyd improved from a 3rd round grade to a top 10 pick thanks to another year with Kelly.
Recruiting - C+. Do not be fooled by some lofty rankings. When you adjust for kids who immediately transferred or otherwise washed out, the classes are mediocre. The 2011 class was top 20ish when you remove Lynch and Prestwood. The 2012 class was a total disaster. The 2013 class was good, but the #3 ranking was due to having EV, Bryant, Redfield, and Smith. EV is already gone dropping us down to 7th and if Bryant were to wash out we'd be sitting outside the top 10. The 2014 class looks very average... blame UNC bags o' cash, girlfriends, parents, whatever... it's just not shaping up to be a top 5 class. Compare our recruiting/player retention to a Michigan or Ohio State and it's obvious it's just average.
Leadership - B+. His style doesn't jive with some people, but there is no doubt that the team is tougher and more focused with him at the helm. He also navigates the waters of Notre Dame pretty well.
Xs and Os - D. There is no legitimate reason why 4 years in our offense is still this boring/bad. He's not an inventive or innovative coach and he also doesn't have an offensive coordinator on his staff to make up for that. On defense, we've played a simplistic scheme with superior talent to generally good results. Remove the superior talent this year, and all of a sudden the ILBs and secondary get abused for big plays.

So when you grade him out completely it's somewhere around a B. If you graded out someone like Saban they'd be A, A, A, B. If you graded out someone like Chip Kelly they'd be A, C, A, A+. So in a sense... yeah, if you're expecting Kelly to be the best in the business then you're "oversold"... at the same time, there are very few out there better than him. His main deficiencies, IMO, could be easily corrected by getting a real OC and some tweaks to recruiting strategy.

Great points...and great post. I have no idea what we are doing with Martin as an OC. I understand loyalty, but there comes a point where it impacts you moving forward.

 

[irishpat183]

C'mon pat. You really do need another team. Maybe you are jesting?

Maybe I'll root for the Mean Machine?


(it was a joke)

 

[CarrollVermin]

It's not a BS argument. Floyd could have taken the easy way out and played in the NFL. Instead, he decided to grow up, asked the University for a path to rejoin his team and redeemed himself. He did everything that was asked of him, got his degree and was a first round pick. Suspending him without further consideration would have accomplished nothing. The University made the right decision in his case and should be applauded for giving him a chance. As far as I'm concerned, ND fulfilled the promise they make to many recruits - come here a boy and we'll make you a man.

So you are also fine when an SEC school does not suspend one of their athletes. They can take the same approach, but when they do, we call it cheating.

I also assume you are okay with Hill playing at LSU. Two severe incidents on his record, but maybe football will make a man out of him too.

 

[enrico514]

Great points...and great post. I have no idea what we are doing with Martin as an OC. I understand loyalty, but there comes a point where it impacts you moving forward.

I thought TR was our OC ! I'm pretty sure he's changed every play called by Martin at the line of scrimmage... He isn't just adjusting protections!

 

[AgentJ]

Results can change perception of the reality.

Last year, we won against Purdue with an even ugliest performance than this year. We won against Pitt in big part thanks to his kicker. We won BYU with the same feeling we are having this year. Stanford with Nunes as a starting QB with some good luck. Then Alabama just humiliated Notre Dame.

Obviously, we had a glorious year if you look the results, but we never been a dominant team and Kelly did not won any game from the sideline.

Now this is where I tend to disagree. I said this last year, and I'd like to preface by saying I'm not trolling in the least, but those wins were only close because of BK.

Go watch highlights now of last years team. Against any team. We were good...like really fu*king good. I took it for granted, everybody did. I still believe that if we had played Bama the week after USC last year, we'd have won. After we lost all momentum by waiting an entire month it was over, but we'd have had a better shot.

All that aside, the point I'm trying to make is that ND was good enough to blow out all of those teams. However, BK trying to put his mark on the game in every facet has always rubbed me the wrong way. Let the players play (esp offensively). Watching us have to take 2 timeouts every 1st & 3rd quarter has been frustrating after BK gets the play in late (then he yells at TR for not getting the play off).

Answer this: If ND had Johnny Manziel, would Kelly allow him to play like Johnny Manziel does?

I think no. He'd try to bottle him up, just as he did with Golson last year.

 

[aubeirish]

But I'm not looking just to be "better than 2009"...


What about that do the Kelly jock holders NOT GET?

CHAMPIONSHIPS AND BCS WINS. Nobody gives a flying f*** about being better than a pathetic time in ND history.

We sure as hell better "be better than 2009"...That is expected.

(no disrepect TP)

The problem with that your saying is that you think that it's like switching a light from off to on. Developing consistency takes time. He inherited a terrible football team. Indiscipline, soft, no work ethic, out of shape. He corrected most of these things and we started winning in a more consistent basis. The QB setbacks are the only thing from us being 5-0 right now and you singing how good Kelly is. It's the only thing. Everything else has been good enough to win out this schedule. Did Kelly envisioned loosing his 2 recruited QBs. I don't think it was part of the plan. Those are setbacks... Throwing the towel is never the answer when the facts are there that you have something good going on.

 

[BGIF]

I was on campus for those...ha.

You apparently didn't follow football then otherwise you would understand rebuilding, reloading, injuries, and the impact of injuries.

Tell me about the '94 BYU game at home. ND took the opening K.O. And marched down the field for a 7-0 lead. BYU fumbled the following K.O. and ND recovered in the Red Zone. BYU then drove ND back with TFLs and sacks pushing ND out of FG range. For the rest of the game, BYU lived in ND's backfield. A WAC team with no pass defense (WAC Teams didn't play pass defense, didn't blitz, didn't get TFLs) eat ND's OLines lunch. They pushed them of the ball back into the ball carriers and QB. Meanwhile on the other side of the ball, Walsh?, the BYU QB schooled the ND secondary all afternoon. After the 7-0 opening Irish lead, the game was ALL BYU.


Correct me if I'm wrong but ND wasn't 11-1 in '93, weren't they? (Similar to last year's 12-1.)

Holtz was in his 9th year. All the players were "his".

Holtz developed players, didn't he.

He was a brilliant coach.

So how did he suddenly become inept?


In '93 he had Aaron Taylor, Ruddy, Leahy, Norman, and Zataveski on the OLine. In '94 the world's greatest OLine coach, Joe Moore, was still coaching the OLine. BUT Taylor, Ruddy, and Norman were gone. In 20 years Taylor hasn't been replaced in kind. Ruddy a 2 year starter, 3 year letterman was replaced at center by a 3rd string guard.

Holtz had his starting 3 deep TBs return, Becton, Kinder, and Farmer, both FBs, Zellars and Edwards.
The speedy QB McDougal was gone and the slow footed Powlus was required to direct an option running attack when eveyone new he was not only a threat not to run in the triple option but he frequently was beaten to the pitch point by opposing DLs.

Comings off a 11-1 season with Hall of Fame Coach, Renaldo Wynn, Taylor, Wooden, and Rossum, among others AND a 5 Star redshirt sophomore QB, ND struggled to a 6-5-1 season.


Unlike the Holtz glory years when ND reloaded, without Cerratto's material the replacements were more like Calabrese. Committed players but lacking the talent of the superstars they replaced. Clevenger was no Taylor, Zeigler was no Ruddy, Doughty was no Norman.


Without Oversignings, JUCOs, and plug in Transfers it's difficult to maintain excellence annually while dealing with 85 scholarship limits (Rockne, Leahy, Parshegian, Devine never had to and Holtz didn't have to either in his glory years) ND academics and honor code, as well as, Res Life.

 

[CarrollVermin]

You apparently didn't follow football then otherwise you would understand rebuilding, reloading, injuries, and the impact of injuries.

Tell me about the '94 BYU game at home. ND took the opening K.O. And marched down the field for a 7-0 lead. BYU fumbled the following K.O. and ND recovered in the Red Zone. BYU then drove ND back with TFLs and sacks pushing ND out of FG range. For the rest of the game, BYU lived in ND's backfield. A WAC team with no pass defense (WAC Teams didn't play pass defense, didn't blitz, didn't get TFLs) eat ND's OLines lunch. They pushed them of the ball back into the ball carriers and QB. Meanwhile on the other side of the ball, Walsh?, the BYU QB schooled the ND secondary all afternoon. After the 7-0 opening Irish lead, the game was ALL BYU.


Correct me if I'm wrong but ND wasn't 11-1 in '93, weren't they? (Similar to last year's 12-1.)

Holtz was in his 9th year. All the players were "his".

Holtz developed players, didn't he.

He was a brilliant coach.

So how did he suddenly become inept?


In '93 he had Aaron Taylor, Ruddy, Leahy, Norman, and Zataveski on the OLine. In '94 the world's greatest OLine coach, Joe Moore, was still coaching the OLine. BUT Taylor, Ruddy, and Norman were gone. In 20 years Taylor hasn't been replaced in kind. Ruddy a 2 year starter, 3 year letterman was replaced at center by a 3rd string guard.

Holtz had his starting 3 deep TBs return, Becton, Kinder, and Farmer, both FBs, Zellars and Edwards.
The speedy QB McDougal was gone and the slow footed Powlus was required to direct an option running attack when eveyone new he was not only a threat not to run in the triple option but he frequently was beaten to the pitch point by opposing DLs.

Comings off a 11-1 season with Hall of Fame Coach, Renaldo Wynn, Taylor, Wooden, and Rossum, among others AND a 5 Star redshirt sophomore QB, ND struggled to a 6-5-1 season.


Unlike the Holtz glory years when ND reloaded, without Cerratto's material the replacements were more like Calabrese. Committed players but lacking the talent of the superstars they replaced. Clevenger was no Taylor, Zeigler was no Ruddy, Doughty was no Norman.


Without Oversignings, JUCOs, and plug in Transfers it's difficult to maintain excellence annually while dealing with 85 scholarship limits (Rockne, Leahy, Parshegian, Devine never had to and Holtz didn't have to either in his glory years) ND academics and honor code, as well as, Res Life.

We may need to give you a history lesson. Lou rebuilt coming off a run where he went 64-9-1. Again, he was 64-9-1...not 28-11 like Kelly is. Holtz also followed that up with a 9 win and an 8 win season and would have kept coaching, and winning, had it not been for an idiot at AD (I was on campus, I can say that).

You can't sit there and tell me Kelly has to "rebuild" after one 10+ win season. If that is the case, then we really have issues with development, recruiting, and retention.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Maybe I'll root for the Mean Machine?


(it was a joke)

Serious question...what were your expectations for the season when we found out Everett wouldn't be back?

 

[CarrollVermin]

Serious question...what were your expectations for the season when we found out Everett wouldn't be back?

Given all the talk that people had on here and elsewhere, I expected a 9 to 10 win season. Mainly because I thought our defense would be dominant.