Montana's got company

[autry_denson]

So Belichick ended the discussion of greatest coach ever but now we've got a serious debate about greatest football player ever.

Montana or Brady: Who do you got?

 

[NDRock]

C'mon, this is a ND board, Montana all the way. Although I've always thought Brady reminded me of Montana, usually calm in the pocket. I think Joe was a better athlete. Each also played for great Head Coaches and their detractors called them "system" QBs. I've even seen one guy on here call Brady a "game manager". Laughable.

 

[BobD]

They are both great QBs. There are too many variables to say someone is the "greatest".

Examples:

Almost anyone can catch a football with the gloves they have these days.

Who wouldn't look great when you have Jerry Rice to throw to?

Did Brady win that game last night or did Pete Carroll lose it with one of the stupidest play call ever?

 

[greyhammer90]

Just my two cents but this is a very silly argument to make no matter which one you think is better. I really dislike using championships as measures of the individual. The idea that Tom Brady's worthiness is based on a miracle catch or the worst offensive playcall I've ever seen is silly.

 

[irishff1014]

And then in Joe's day they could hit the QB and be a cry baby like Brady.

 

[Nick Setta]

Montana never lost or threw an interception and won 3 MVPs. The debate still isnt close

 

[autry_denson]

Montana never lost or threw an interception and won 3 MVPs. The debate still isnt close

Great points. I've always been a Montana guy. That said I think Brady's done it with much less talent around him, and done it in an age of parity.

In football the quarterback has such a disproportionate influence on the game that the best player ever has to be a QB. And in my mind figuring out ways to win games at times when it matters most is the primary criterion for quarterback greatness. There is luck involved with crazy plays, but to make your way to six Super Bowls with entirely different rosters around you is truly incredible. To go 8 for 8 on the winning drive is no fluke. I feel so lucky to have been able to watch Brady over his career.

Tough call, but I'm leaning toward Brady.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Montana never lost or threw an interception and won 3 MVPs. The debate still isnt close

Brady has also won 3 MVPs and has made it to 6 super bowls in the age of the salary cap and parity.

 

[NDohio]

Elway ...

 

[BobD]

Career stats:

Tom Brady: Career Stats at NFL.com

Joe Montana: Career Stats at NFL.com

 

[BobD]

Elway ...

John Elway didn't win the Super Bowls until he was forced to be a team player......without Terrell Davis he probably never wins one.

 

[wizards8507]

Montana never lost or threw an interception and won 3 MVPs. The debate still isnt close

"Never lost"? Who cares? It's way more impressive to get there six times and win four than only get there four times and win them all. Losing a Super Bowl is still better than failing to make it to the Super Bowl in the first place.

It's like... which is more impressive? Having sex with four super models and making out with two others, or just having sex with four super models.

 

[autry_denson]

"Never lost"? Who cares? It's way more impressive to get there six times and win four than only get there four times and win them all. Losing a Super Bowl is still better than failing to make it to the Super Bowl in the first place.

It's like... which is more impressive? Having sex with four super models and making out with two others, or just having sex with four super models.

it's true, you could flip the 'never lost' argument and what it really means is that he lost earlier.

As for stats, Brady looks better in almost every category but there's a period effect that's in play here. Drew Brees probably looks better than Montana too by the numbers. I don't think you can make the case by stats.

 

[BobD]

"Never lost"? Who cares? It's way more impressive to get there six times and win four than only get there four times and win them all. Losing a Super Bowl is still better than failing to make it to the Super Bowl in the first place.

It's like... which is more impressive? Having sex with four super models and making out with two others, or just having sex with four super models.

Brady has had sex with a super model, not sure if Joe has. Dang Joe loses by a pussy.

 

[NDohio]

John Elway didn't win the Super Bowls until he was forced to be a team player......without Terrell Davis he probably never wins one.

And that is why this is a silly argument in a team sport like football. Brady and Montana didn't achieve their victories without great players around them as well.

 

[autry_denson]

And that is why this is a silly argument in a team sport like football. Brady and Montana didn't achieve their victories without great players around them as well.

true, Brady wouldn't have won without...Antoine Smith? Corey Dillon? Recently released LaGarrette Blount?

I hope I'm not missing anyone obvious, but I can think of two great offensive players Brady's had in his entire career: Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski.

 

[woolybug25]

"Never lost"? Who cares? It's way more impressive to get there six times and win four than only get there four times and win them all. Losing a Super Bowl is still better than failing to make it to the Super Bowl in the first place.

It's like... which is more impressive? Having sex with four super models and making out with two others, or just having sex with four super models.

I disagree. We are talking about who the best QB is, not the best team. Montana performed flawlessly in all of his Super Bowl victories. Brady has not. Hell, he threw two picks last night and they still gave him the MVP (Mostly because no one else took the game over).

Brady didn't take over the game last night or put the team on his back. They won despite him throwing two costly picks. Montana turned it on in all of his Super Bowls. You are comparing team accomplishments with personal accomplishments. The Patriots put Tom Brady in more Super Bowl appearances and that's what allowed him to match some of Joe's numbers. Give Joe two more appearances and he would have probably won two more rings and another MVP.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

And that is why this is a silly argument in a team sport like football. Brady and Montana didn't achieve their victories without great players around them as well.

Absolutely true. It's also true that when you took Montana away, Steve Young still won the Super Bowl in 1994. Montana was actually still playing at the time (he was one year older than Brady at that time). I wonder if the same would happen with the Pats. My guess is that it wouldn't, but that's what makes this such an interesting conversation.

 

[autry_denson]

I disagree. We are talking about who the best QB is, not the best team. Montana performed flawlessly in all of his Super Bowl victories. Brady has not. Hell, he threw two picks last night and they still gave him the MVP (Mostly because no one else took the game over).

Brady didn't take over the game last night or put the team on his back. They won despite him throwing two costly picks. Montana turned it on in all of his Super Bowls. You are comparing team accomplishments with personal accomplishments. The Patriots put Tom Brady in more Super Bowl appearances and that's what allowed him to match some of Joe's numbers. Give Joe two more appearances and he would have probably won two more rings and another MVP.

he went 37 for 50 against the best defense in the league and 8 for 8 on the winning drive.

I love Joe but he could have been in two more super bowls if he won the games to get there.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

he went 37 for 50 against the best defense in the league and 8 for 8 on the winning drive.

I love Joe but he could have been in two more super bowls if he won the games to get there.

He had an up and down game. But he was money when it counted against a really really good defense.

 

[woolybug25]

he went 37 for 50 against the best defense in the league and 8 for 8 on the winning drive.

I love Joe but he could have been in two more super bowls if he won the games to get there.

And he threw two picks. How many picks did Joe throw?


Like I said, HE didn't win the games, their teams did. If you are comparing them as players, then you have to take their teams out of it. When on the same stage (ie Super Bowl), Montana played better and put his team on his back. Brady hasn't done that in all of his wins.

Also, when Montana was going to Super Bowls, no one threw 50 times a game. They played a different style of football. So excuse me if i'm not impressed with Brady throwing more TD's or having more completions than Montana. Especially when he had two more games to do it, while throwing twice as many passes.

 

[NDohio]

true, Brady wouldn't have won without...The greatest coach of our time.

I hope I'm not missing anyone obvious, but I can think of two great offensive players Brady's had in his entire career: Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski.

FIFY

 

[IrishJayhawk]

And he threw two picks. How many picks did Joe throw?


Like I said, HE didn't win the games, their teams did. If you are comparing them as players, then you have to take their teams out of it. When on the same stage (ie Super Bowl), Montana played better and put his team on his back. Brady hasn't done that in all of his wins.

Also, when Montana was going to Super Bowls, no one threw 50 times a game. They played a different style of football. So excuse me if i'm not impressed with Brady throwing more TD's or having more completions than Montana. Especially when he had two more games to do it, while throwing twice as many passes.

Throwing 50 times also gives him twice as many opportunities to throw INTs.

 

[Irish#1]

"Never lost"? Who cares? It's way more impressive to get there six times and win four than only get there four times and win them all. Losing a Super Bowl is still better than failing to make it to the Super Bowl in the first place.

It's like... which is more impressive? Having sex with four super models and making out with two others, or just having sex with four super models.

I'm disappointed Wiz. It took you almost 3 hours to reply to this thread.

There's no doubt Brady is a great QB and should be ranked up with the best of them. But if you want to really dissect the debate, consider the following.
1. Brady misses a year and his replacement goes 11-5 or 12-4. Then goes to KC doesn't do squat. Is Brady the product of a good system?
2. Brady played pretty decent last night but most of his passes were dink and dunks. Adleman and the other guy made life a lot easier by making 7 & 8 yards out of a 2-3 yard pass. Brady missed badly on a number of deeper routes.
3. If the Seahawks don't have a brain fart in the last minute, NE wouldn't have won and Brady wouldn't be MVP.
4. In two of his SB titles, Brady didn't drive the team to winning TD's. He came up short and NE was forced to go for the FG which AV nailed both times. One of those drives Brady was aided by a pretty good KO return.

Brady is one of the most accomplished QB's in NFL history.

 

[autry_denson]

And he threw two picks. How many picks did Joe throw?


Like I said, HE didn't win the games, their teams did. If you are comparing them as players, then you have to take their teams out of it. When on the same stage (ie Super Bowl), Montana played better and put his team on his back. Brady hasn't done that in all of his wins.

Also, when Montana was going to Super Bowls, no one threw 50 times a game. They played a different style of football. So excuse me if i'm not impressed with Brady throwing more TD's or having more completions than Montana. Especially when he had two more games to do it, while throwing twice as many passes.

I agree that Montana played better in his super bowls. And Brady's picks were killers, no argument. I don't think you're giving him enough credit for what he did last night against that defense in the fourth quarter. When they scored to go down 3 I got about 8 texts from Pats fans with the same message: one stop and we win. There was just complete confidence that if Brady got the ball back he would score again. And then we all sit there and watch him go 8 for 8 against the best secondary I've seen in a long time. I am not one to argue against Montana, and I don't care who threw more TDs in the playoffs. But I'm in awe of what Brady did last night.

 

[NDohio]

Absolutely true. It's also true that when you took Montana away, Steve Young still won the Super Bowl in 1994. Montana was actually still playing at the time (he was one year older than Brady at that time). I wonder if the same would happen with the Pats. My guess is that it wouldn't, but that's what makes this such an interesting conversation.

So you are saying that if Brady were replaced by a future Hall of Fame QB that the Patriots wouldn't have the same success they have had with Brady?

I disagree. Belichik > Brady on the greatness scale and, IMO, would lead another QB of Hall of Fame stature to Super Bowl wins.

 

[woolybug25]

Throwing 50 times also gives him twice as many opportunities to throw INTs.

I bet his passes over 10 yards are pretty similar to Montana's. I saw a stat earlier in the game showing Brady in the bottom 3 in the league for passes over 10 yards. He plays in a dink and dunk offense.

The only time he threw picks were when he had to go downfield with the ball.

 

[woolybug25]

I agree that Montana played better in his super bowls. And Brady's picks were killers, no argument. I don't think you're giving him enough credit for what he did last night against that defense in the fourth quarter. When they scored to go down 3 I got about 8 texts from Pats fans with the same message: one stop and we win. There was just complete confidence that if Brady got the ball back he would score again. And then we all sit there and watch him go 8 for 8 against the best secondary I've seen in a long time. I am not one to argue against Montana, and I don't care who threw more TDs in the playoffs. But I'm in awe of what Brady did last night.

I didn't say that Brady played bad or that I think he's a bad QB. Quite the contrary, he's one of the all time greats.

I thought this thread was about comparing Brady to Montana, so that's what I was doing.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

So you are saying that if Brady were replaced by a future Hall of Fame QB that the Patriots wouldn't have the same success they have had with Brady?

I disagree. Belichik > Brady on the greatness scale and, IMO, would lead another QB of Hall of Fame stature to Super Bowl wins.

We'll never know. But I think Brady is pretty much that good.

 

[kmoose]

So Belichick ended the discussion of greatest coach ever

Perhaps, but there still remains a discussion of who is the greatest NON-CHEATING coach ever....... just sayin'. Belichick is a GREAT coach, and would still be a GREAT coach without all of the shenanigans. But in football, as in life; shenanigans count!