Manti vs Manziel

IrishKel93

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Thanks for the read. I saw some comnents..they are mad heh.

I love the fact that they are mad as all get out that a woman wrote it ... when I didn't even write it! They didn't even read the second line "Guest post ..." LOL

The best was the thread on the TexAgs message board ... telling me that a woman cannot be a credible sports writer ... and that I should get back in the kitchen ... and that for my significant other's sake they hope I'm a better cook than a sports writer! hahahaha

Then ... their board crashed and they blamed it on ME!

Quite a successful day I must say!
 

ulukinatme

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Very well done. So far stiffarmtrophy.com isn't looking too good though. There are some voters not even voting for Manti. I noticed a few writers from Southern Cal left him off the ballot, as well as Roger Staubach. Archie Griffin only voted for Manziel. A writer from Topeka Kansas only voted for Klein. Lots of Texas writers of course are supporting Manziel. All four writers for an Oklahoma paper have supported Manti, which is nice. In any case, I expect the award to go to Manziel at this point and would reinforce that the integrity line is just there for fluff. I'm no less proud of Manti's work on and off the field this year, it's quite an accomplishment for any pure defensive player to be invited to New York.
 
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ab2cmiller

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Very well done. So far stiffarmtrophy.com isn't looking too good though. There are some voters not even voting for Manti. I noticed a few writers from Southern Cal left him off the ballot, as well as Roger Staubach. Archie Griffin only voted for Manziel. A writer from Topeka Kansas only voted for Klein. Lots of Texas writers of course are supporting Manziel. All four writers for an Oklahoma paper have supported Manti, which is nice. In any case, I expect the award to go to Manziel at this point and would reinforce that the integrity line is just there for fluff. I'm no less proud of Manti's work on and off the field this year, it's quite an accomplishment for any pure defensive player to be invited to New York.

Those particular voters have only indicated who they voted for number 1. The web site only tabulates what it knows for sure. Since they have no indication who they voted second and third, that web site leaves those blank. Both Griffin and Staubach could've voted Manti 2nd, but at this point nobody really knows for sure.
 

rtrn2glory

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here's the way i see it:

raise your hand if you knew who johnny manziel was before the bama game.....

Man'ti has been consistent all year.

just like coach kelly said...if he doesn't win the heisman, make it an offensive award b/c there is no doubt who the best FOOTBALL player in the country is this year.
 

ulukinatme

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Te'o detractors have commented that his stats sheet (Outside of the INTs) doesn't even show him to be the best LB in the country this year, let alone some previous years where defenders didn't go to New York. I've countered that Te'o is leading the #1 defense on the #1 team, and that they do a good job of getting offenses off the field resulting in less plays. If you look at the previous two years in comparison, this team is averaging 8 less plays a game.

The other comments I've seen is that Manti's highlights are 30 seconds long and involve him running around/cheering a lot. I counter that a fast defensive stop or goal line stand only takes one second...scrambling around for 20 seconds against poor tackling is easy to make a long highlight tape about :laugh:
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Te'o detractors have commented that his stats sheet (Outside of the INTs) doesn't even show him to be the best LB in the country this year, let alone some previous years where defenders didn't go to New York. I've countered that Te'o is leading the #1 defense on the #2 team, and that they do a good job of getting offenses off the field resulting in less plays. If you look at the previous two years in comparison, this team is averaging 8 less plays a game.

Manti plays for 'Bama?
 
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Bogtrotter07

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A) Te'o = Lombardi, Bednarik, Butkus = well known enough.

B) informed voters know enough to look at the whole season.

C) Manti lifted his team; evidence is Manzel's team lifted him.

D) People in all things voting this year want to vote character, integrity, other higher esoteric values.
 

phork

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People can't bring up Manti not being the best LB in the country without bringing up that Manziel wasn't the best QB either.
 

rtrn2glory

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People can't bring up Manti not being the best LB in the country without bringing up that Manziel wasn't the best QB either.

are you saying that manziel was the best QB?? if that's the case i disagree. yes he's an outstanding player and deserves recognition for that, but there are a lot of QB's out there better than him.

for instance if urban wasn't on sanctions we'd be trying to convince ppl that they shouldn't be voting for braxton miller over man'ti.
 

domerdude

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I asked a friend of mine to look at it this way.

If before this season Manti and Johnny switched teams....

Would Johnny have even started for ND? (both him and Everett are RSF).
Would Kelly have still have had an early season rotation between QBs?(Johnny had 3 TO in 1game).
Would ND have still gone undefeated?
Would Johnny have been suspended a game or two for his off season arrest?
If you could have Manti on your team for 1 more year or Johnny for 3 more, your preference?
 

kmoose

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are you saying that manziel was the best QB?? if that's the case i disagree. yes he's an outstanding player and deserves recognition for that, but there are a lot of QB's out there better than him.

for instance if urban wasn't on sanctions we'd be trying to convince ppl that they shouldn't be voting for braxton miller over man'ti.

No, what he is saying (I think) is that those who feel that Manti shouldn't win the award because it's not clear that he is even the best player at his position (although the Butkus award now says different), won't bring up the fact that it's not clear that Manziel is the best QB in the country, either. It's called hypocrisy.
 

connor_in

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I could not get the Aggies forum link to work or find that thread in the rest of the forum.

I did read the comments on the article's site and enjoyed the laughs. I liked the part you guys listed where they say manti isn't even the best LB or D player out there based on stats, but you can show JFF (I take it the 1st F is for a rude term for copulation?) isn't even the best QB based on stats either. Then they rip on schedule, but but any rating system that does not include "# of SEC schools played" ND's has been shown to be tougher (computer rankings & # of bowl eligible teams played against...much less the wins and losses of the team of the respective players). Another item I picked up on was the integrity aspect. JFF fans throw out some interesting arguments on that: "Bush/Newton" neither of which was shown legally to have done anything wrong at the time of the voting...not only has JFF been shown to have done something legally wrong already, but when Bush was shown to have done something wrong, the award was taken back (vacated); someone even threw out the ND situation that led to the suicide of a student like something not involving the player up for the award automatically discounts him...wild!; and then they even proposed that IF Manti had had been in the same situation it would have been swept under the rug...apparently that guy never heard of our (at the time) starting QB.

You can play with statistics til the cows come home and prove anything ("there are lies, d*mn lies, and then there are statistics"). So you start throwing those around and you can make pretty much any point you want. However, at the end of the day, most people would prefer the W to any moral victory (unless you are a fantasy football player). Also, in those games that were the most challenging, how did you play overall? I giggled at the few posters that said something to the effect of well, look at JFF's other 9 games...I still bet Navy and BC would kick the crap out of the FCS teams and even a couple of the down scale FBS teams TAMU played where he racked up pinball numbers. On other sites, when someone brings up "system QB" since their coach has a history of it, the JFF fans discount it saying, nope, our guy runs a lot too! My response has been two things...why does he have to if he has such a great arm and so what? He is the one who has the ball and makes the final decision, so if he pulls it down and runs who cares especially against the weaker teams. Why does him using his feet discount the idea of a system QB especially in the face of his coach's past.

Thanks for the link to the great read and the fun comments section!
 

phork

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No, what he is saying (I think) is that those who feel that Manti shouldn't win the award because it's not clear that he is even the best player at his position (although the Butkus award now says different), won't bring up the fact that it's not clear that Manziel is the best QB in the country, either. It's called hypocrisy.

Exactly. People do it all the time. The very argument you use to justify your side works completely against you from the other side.

Manziel isn't in the Top15 for passing effeciency.
#20 in yards per game passing.

I suppose I could go on, but whats done is done. Pulling for the blue hairs to do what they do best, and stiff the freshman.
 

rtrn2glory

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No, what he is saying (I think) is that those who feel that Manti shouldn't win the award because it's not clear that he is even the best player at his position (although the Butkus award now says different), won't bring up the fact that it's not clear that Manziel is the best QB in the country, either. It's called hypocrisy.

gotcha...thanks!!
 

UHCoogs

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Why doesn't Manziel get the system QB label? When Case Keenum had just as good or better numbers in some categories and did not even get invited because he was labeled a system QB. When He had the same coaches and scheme as Manziel.

Go Teo good luck ND in the Championship game.
 

IrishLax

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Why doesn't Manziel get the system QB label? When Case Keenum had just as good or better numbers in some categories and did not even get invited because he was labeled a system QB. When He had the same coaches and scheme as Manziel.

Go Teo good luck ND in the Championship game.

So true.... and tanks to the guys at ESPN for coming up with these numbers... albeit it would've been nice a couple weeks ago:

Close-game numbers don't favor Manziel - Stats & Info Blog - ESPN

Manziel < Keenum... and only gets credit because they beat Alabama. His numbers all come from running up the score on inferior opponents.
 

connor_in

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Why doesn't Manziel get the system QB label? When Case Keenum had just as good or better numbers in some categories and did not even get invited because he was labeled a system QB. When He had the same coaches and scheme as Manziel.

Go Teo good luck ND in the Championship game.

I asked that same question in an ESPN comments section back a week or two ago. The response I got was "Of course he is not a system QB...look at his rushing totals!" Now, not being an SEC-hag, I must admit that this really didn't make any sense to me that a system QB couldn't pull the ball down and run if he was in trouble/had an opening, but this guy seemed to think that his simple comment closed the argument once and for all.


FYI...I still don't agree with him and still agree with you
 

UHCoogs

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If He was such a superior QB his rushing numbers should not be so high considering he has 2 nfl caliber lineman. Keenum could have easily had higher rushing numbers in his career but used his mobility to by time to pass the ball. During his high school years he was primarily a running QB.
 

Irish Houstonian

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The problem is, "system" QB just means you don't beat high-profile opponents. Keenum, TexasTech, etc. all got the label.

On the other hand, Bradford, Jason White, Danny Weurfel, etc. basically had the same "system" but beat high-ranked opponents. Same with Manziel.
 

Irish4Life09

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Don't you have to place a candidate for 1st 2nd and 3rd in order for the ballot to be allowed by the Committee?
If people are only voting for one person or another, wouldn't their votes be thrown out according to the rules?
 

ab2cmiller

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Don't you have to place a candidate for 1st 2nd and 3rd in order for the ballot to be allowed by the Committee?
If people are only voting for one person or another, wouldn't their votes be thrown out according to the rules?

I'm sure they filled out their ballot with all 3 votes, but some have only disclosed publicly who their first place vote is.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The problem is, "system" QB just means you don't beat high-profile opponents. Keenum, TexasTech, etc. all got the label.

On the other hand, Bradford, Jason White, Danny Weurfel, etc. basically had the same "system" but beat high-ranked opponents. Same with Manziel.

Some people probably use the "system" label that way, but that's not all it means. Several of Oregon's recent Heisman contenders have been (rightfully) knocked as products of Kelly's scheme and process. It's simply a recognition that some players' stats are more attributable to the system they play in than to their own greatness.

Keenum and Manziel were/ are system QBs. Luck and Newton were not.
 

Irish Houstonian

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Some people probably use the "system" label that way, but that's not all it means. Several of Oregon's recent Heisman contenders have been (rightfully) knocked as products of Kelly's scheme and process. It's simply a recognition that some players' stats are more attributable to the system they play in than to their own greatness.

Keenum and Manziel were/ are system QBs. Luck and Newton were not.

That's what I'm saying...Oklahoma Heisman QB's, for example, have tended to not get the "system" label, despite running the same "system", because they've beaten high profile teams. Thus, beating high-profile teams is the means by which players get recognized as skilled in their own right.
 

IrishKel93

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The Aggie board crashed about 12 hours after that thread went up (which they subsequently blamed on me ... my how talented am I?! LOL) so unfortunately it's gone. But a lot of them posted similar comments on the actual post itself so you get the idea! Too funny!

I could not get the Aggies forum link to work or find that thread in the rest of the forum.

I did read the comments on the article's site and enjoyed the laughs. I liked the part you guys listed where they say manti isn't even the best LB or D player out there based on stats, but you can show JFF (I take it the 1st F is for a rude term for copulation?) isn't even the best QB based on stats either. Then they rip on schedule, but but any rating system that does not include "# of SEC schools played" ND's has been shown to be tougher (computer rankings & # of bowl eligible teams played against...much less the wins and losses of the team of the respective players). Another item I picked up on was the integrity aspect. JFF fans throw out some interesting arguments on that: "Bush/Newton" neither of which was shown legally to have done anything wrong at the time of the voting...not only has JFF been shown to have done something legally wrong already, but when Bush was shown to have done something wrong, the award was taken back (vacated); someone even threw out the ND situation that led to the suicide of a student like something not involving the player up for the award automatically discounts him...wild!; and then they even proposed that IF Manti had had been in the same situation it would have been swept under the rug...apparently that guy never heard of our (at the time) starting QB.

You can play with statistics til the cows come home and prove anything ("there are lies, d*mn lies, and then there are statistics"). So you start throwing those around and you can make pretty much any point you want. However, at the end of the day, most people would prefer the W to any moral victory (unless you are a fantasy football player). Also, in those games that were the most challenging, how did you play overall? I giggled at the few posters that said something to the effect of well, look at JFF's other 9 games...I still bet Navy and BC would kick the crap out of the FCS teams and even a couple of the down scale FBS teams TAMU played where he racked up pinball numbers. On other sites, when someone brings up "system QB" since their coach has a history of it, the JFF fans discount it saying, nope, our guy runs a lot too! My response has been two things...why does he have to if he has such a great arm and so what? He is the one who has the ball and makes the final decision, so if he pulls it down and runs who cares especially against the weaker teams. Why does him using his feet discount the idea of a system QB especially in the face of his coach's past.

Thanks for the link to the great read and the fun comments section!
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Here is all of the proof you need:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Md7OB0XpJng" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Maroonthrunthru

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Why the Aggies are hatin' on Manti...

Why the Aggies are hatin' on Manti...

It has nothing to do with Manti nor Johnny Football...

And it doesn't have a lot to do with ND...
A guiding principle in America is that you get rewarded for the things you actually accomplish, not because of your family lineage or some historical happenstance....

The Heisman is a one-year, individual award... Based on a player's individual accomplishments for that one year...

Teo's candidacy is based solely on NDs team performance and his "story" (much like the fraudulently inaccurate, per Joe Montana, movie "Rudy")...

If you're honest, you have to admit that Teo is, at best, an average LB (from a national perspective), on a very good team....

His game is much like Dat Nguyen's... Except Dat's stats were far superior...

When a Norte Dame player is truly deserving of an individual award, you'll find The Twelfth Man will be his biggest supporter.... Until then.....
 
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