Let's talk about race

[Bishop2b5]

“We’ve always had a racial issue in this country and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens. We never have meaningful dialogue over a cold beer when things are going good.” - Charles Barkley

OK, things aren't necessarily going good right now, but it's time to talk with each other. And note that I said with, not at each other. Sir Charles, love him or hate him, has a point. It's one thing to say, "Black people all do..." or "White people are all..." and see the other side in some sort of stereotypical way and complain about how and why the other side acts a certain way. It's something totally different when we talk with people from the other side of the race issue as friends or just someone we want to get to know, and we hear their side of things, good and bad. We learn, we get to know each other, and we come to understand why the other guy thinks this or does that. That's what this thread is about.

A dozen years ago, I lived in Chicago for 9 months. A good friend I had there said to me, "This isn't the South. We don't talk about race here" and cautioned me against ever discussing the subject with Blacks in Chicago (in the South, race is a common topic of discussion that both sides are fairly comfortable with). I heeded his advice for a long time, but a black coworker and I became friends, hung out a lot and talked about all sorts of stuff, and the subject eventually came up. One day we had a very long, in-depth discussion. It was open, honest, frank, and sometimes critical or tough, but it was civil and the whole point was to learn and understand - to come to see the other side's point of view. It was one of the best talks I ever had with anyone.

Afterwards, I told him what my friend had said and how he'd warned me that Blacks were very touchy about discussing race and to avoid the subject. His reply was, "We don't talk about it with you because we think YOU'RE touchy about it and don't want to! Just about all of us would LOVE to have the conversation you and I've just had, but don't know how. We're afraid you'll get upset." I assured him that it was same from our side of the field. We wanted to have that conversation too, but were afraid the other side would get upset.

My friend and I talked about anything and everything racial that day: the good, the bad, questions we had, what offended us, what we admired, what we didn't understand, the right and wrong done by both sides, what we wish we could change, things we wish the other side would or wouldn't do, what we saw wrong in the other side and in our own... EVERYTHING... and it was 100% civil, friendly, and honest. Neither of us got mad, felt attacked, or got our feelings hurt. In the end, it was exceptionally enlightening and rewarding. We both learned and came to a better understanding of what it was like to walk in the other's shoes. I hope this discussion can be as positive.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Here's my take on recent events. It is heartbreaking that as a White man who agreed with the decision regarding Officer Wilson, I am viewed by people who don't know me as a racist, when tonight I shared a dinner table with 2 families; one of which was was Puerto Rican, the other was African-American. I love these people as my own blood, why should I be forced to defend myself on the basis of race, because of what I view as a common sense issue?

Ps: move this to the Lounge.

 

[Buster Bluth]

 

[GoldenDomer]

Also, one of my biggest fucking pet peeves is the slavery argument, because I am a 4th generation American. My people got here after the Civil War, and faced their own share of adversity and hate, so please shut the fuck up.

 

[NDBoiler]

I think it all goes back to how you are brought up. If your parents are good enough people to raise you as color blind, chances are you'll be a more accepting person. If not, then you'll probably develop similar stereotypes and prejudices as they have. Bottom line, if you're a parent, teach your kids to be respectful of others regardless of race, and society will benefit. But it takes a conscious decision by adults to make this happen.

 

[NDohio]

“We’ve always had a racial issue in this country and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens. We never have meaningful dialogue over a cold beer when things are going good.” - Charles Barkley

OK, things aren't necessarily going good right now, but it's time to talk with each other. And note that I said with, not at each other. Sir Charles, love him or hate him, has a point. It's one thing to say, "Black people all do..." or "White people are all..." and see the other side in some sort of stereotypical way and complain about how and why the other side acts a certain way. It's something totally different when we talk with people from the other side of the race issue as friends or just someone we want to get to know, and we hear their side of things, good and bad. We learn, we get to know each other, and we come to understand why the other guy thinks this or does that. That's what this thread is about.

A dozen years ago, I lived in Chicago for 9 months. A good friend I had there said to me, "This isn't the South. We don't talk about race here" and cautioned me against ever discussing the subject with Blacks in Chicago (in the South, race is a common topic of discussion that both sides are fairly comfortable with). I heeded his advice for a long time, but a black coworker and I became friends, hung out a lot and talked about all sorts of stuff, and the subject eventually came up. One day we had a very long, in-depth discussion. It was open, honest, frank, and sometimes critical or tough, but it was civil and the whole point was to learn and understand - to come to see the other side's point of view. It was one of the best talks I ever had with anyone.

Afterwards, I told him what my friend had said and how he'd warned me that Blacks were very touchy about discussing race and to avoid the subject. His reply was, "We don't talk about it with you because we think YOU'RE touchy about it and don't want to! Just about all of us would LOVE to have the conversation you and I've just had, but don't know how. We're afraid you'll get upset." I assured him that it was same from our side of the field. We wanted to have that conversation too, but were afraid the other side would get upset.

My friend and I talked about anything and everything racial that day: the good, the bad, questions we had, what offended us, what we admired, what we didn't understand, the right and wrong done by both sides, what we wish we could change, things we wish the other side would or wouldn't do, what we saw wrong in the other side and in our own... EVERYTHING... and it was 100% civil, friendly, and honest. Neither of us got mad, felt attacked, or got our feelings hurt. In the end, it was exceptionally enlightening and rewarding. We both learned and came to a better understanding of what it was like to walk in the other's shoes. I hope this discussion can be as positive.

Really great post. Hopefully the discussion can be civil.

The bold is interesting to me. I grew up in OH and lived there for 44 years until moving to the south(small town in SC). The city I spent most of the time in while in OH is a diverse city in which blacks and whites intermingle and race conversations flow fairly easily. Since moving to the South I find the exact opposite of what you have found. It seems segregation is strong in the town I am in and their are absolutely no conversations between the races. My daughter was shunned when we first got here by many of the other white girls because she befriended a few black girls. It has been a really hard adjustment for her/us.

This weekend's events make me wonder if a major race war isn't just around the corner. I agree with your sentiment. Let's talk people!

 

[GoldenDomer]

Really great post. Hopefully the discussion can be civil.

The bold is interesting to me. I grew up in OH and lived there for 44 years until moving to the south(small town in SC). The city I spent most of the time in while in OH is a diverse city in which blacks and whites intermingle and race conversations flow fairly easily. Since moving to the South I find the exact opposite of what you have found. It seems segregation is strong in the town I am in and their are absolutely no conversations between the races. My daughter was shunned when we first got here by many of the other white girls because she befriended a few black girls. It has been a really hard adjustment for her/us.

This weekend's events make me wonder if a major race war isn't just around the corner. I agree with your sentiment. Let's talk people!

South Carolina is a different animal. In NC I find a strong connection between blacks and whites in the school communities, especially due to HS sports.

 

[NDohio]

South Carolina is a different animal. In NC I find a strong connection between blacks and whites in the school communities, especially due to HS sports.

SC really is. And HS sports is very segregated here with the exception of football.

wrestling/white
basketball/black
baseball/white
track/black
soccer/white

Just not what we are used to at all.

 

[NDdomer2]

I used to be north side elementary recess champion.

 

[GoldenDomer]

SC really is. And HS sports is very segregated here with the exception of football.

wrestling/white
basketball/black
baseball/white
track/black
soccer/white

Just not what we are used to at all.

I think that all states are the same regarding who is playing those individual sports, but I think NC may be different than SC in that while there may be 10 black kids on the basketball court, the gym is probably split 50/50 on any given night.

I have always thought sports is one of the purest connections between races. Kids don't care what color the kid next to them is, they'll run through walls for them.

 

[NDPhilly]

Unpopular Opinion: Garner is still alive if he isn't such a fucking fat ass.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

This shooting of a police officer in Florida this morning is very disturbing. I have not yet seen details on the race of those involved but I will be shocked if the officer isn't white. The perp could be of any race as outrage at the Ferguson and NY cases is being protested by all races. Copycat crimes of shooting officers (this being the first follow up to yesterday's NY nightmare) will create greater problems in this country. Let's hope this doesn't spin totally out of control. God Bless all families involved.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Unpopular Opinion: Garner is still alive if he isn't such a fucking fat ass.

He's also still alive if some Guido cop doesn't try to be a hardass.

 

[ThePiombino]

He's also still alive if some Guido cop doesn't try to be a hardass.

Unless you're of Italian descent, I would steer clear of statements like that. The officer's heritage had nothing to do with what went down.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk 2

 

[GoldenDomer]

Unless you're of Italian descent, I would steer clear of statements like that. The officer's heritage had nothing to do with what went down.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk 2

I'm not, but I thought we were doing unpopular opinions. No need to choke a guy out when you have plenty of backup.


Also regarding these incidents, it's annoying that people think you have to agree with the cops in both altercations.

 

[Grahambo]

I'm not, but I thought we were doing unpopular opinions. No need to choke a guy out when you have plenty of backup.


Also regarding these incidents, it's annoying that people think you have to agree with the cops in both altercations.

I agree with the cops in both situations. I've also been in situations similar to both cops.

 

[GoldenDomer]

I agree with the cops in both situations. I've also been in situations similar to both cops.

I understand that, but I feel like some people think if they agree with Wilson, they have to agree with the NYPD situation.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I agree with the cops in both situations. I've also been in situations similar to both cops.

Threads like this are very interesting because of what they reveal about the poster. And for little other than that.

Bishop is a good guy, wrestling with a big issue, NDDomer2 is a major smart-ass, NDPhilly is still trying to get attention, and the most interesting person in the world has stated the most obvious set of facts and conjectures in the thread. But he didn't write it with the bias that pushes most to post in a thread like this.

Too bad there aren't more historians around. Racial unrest has been encouraged, stirred up, and even funded by some of our most revered institutions.

King, throug Ghandi, have advanced a proposition that poverty is a form of violence. I agree. It has lingering scars. On both the subjected inpoverished and their economic-social superiors.

In a closed system why are those at the bottom raised in what seems to be a cultural vaacuum? Because everyone presented with the chance ascends, and distances themselves from those that remain. Not in a modern cultural sense, but in a real, traditional, historical, conservative sense.

Why is this destined to remain the same throught the history of mankind. The solutions to this kind of cultural, interpertional interaction is not based upon the impetus of sweeping nationalistic law, or moralistic changes, it is based upon individual enpowerment; of all. Not just those that are at the poor, or minority ends of the spectrum.

To have real understanding on this issue, everyone would have to start by giving up on their own point of view. Then they would have to start slowing interacting with new patterns of behavior, not based on "past experience," but on the objective goals of eliminating poverty.

 

[Grahambo]

Let's talk about race

I understand that, but I feel like some people think if they agree with Wilson, they have to agree with the NYPD situation.

I see your point.

Personally, as I said, I agree with each, individual situation. People think overzealous cop, I see obesity and a laundry list of medical problems. If he had gone quietly, would he be alive?

I do my absolute best to be unbiased. I also have view points that some don't have such as being law enforcement and having blood relatives, 4 nieces, who are half black and whose father is scum. But he's scum on his own actions, not because of his color. Here's the dreaded, I have black friends saying but I do have black friends who are outstanding people. But they're outstanding on their own merits, not because of skin color.

Race should have never been brought into this but it was and each action from the start has led us to where we are at. Cops were turning their back on the Mayor yesterday, literally, cops of all color because they know. People need to get off their high horse and stop pointing fingers. The moment you point fingers is the moment the situation is lost.

Cops are held accountable. People need to do research.

Just my personal opinion. Not here to start an Internet war of words.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I agree with the cops in both situations. I've also been in situations similar to both cops.

Yes, I know that to be fact, bro.

This is the heart of my post above.

And in those times, you and your fellow officers, reacted with innovative, and life saving strategies, perserving and saving lives above all else, risking your life in the process.

You, and your Capitol buddies are heroes.

Thus, my standard in these situations is a combination of how much risk each officer submitted himself to, versus how life perserving or taking his actions were.

EG. The lowest on the list is someone that would ambush a peace officer. But, there are different levels when speaking of the confrontation of an armed man and someone standing on the street corner, being beligerent.

And before we get into a debate about tactics or semantics, there is a recent video of a drunk/stoned white guy waving a gun standing on a corner, expresing that carying that weapon was his right, when told repeatedly by officers to put the weapon down, while pointing the weapon at policemen, threatening to fire!

(They got the gun, kept themselves and the man safe, and ended the standoff without a life being taken. If I were in charge I suspect one of us, he or I, would have been injured or killed.)

 

[Grahambo]

Yes, I know that to be fact, bro.

This is the heart of my post above.

And in those times, you and your fellow officers, reacted with innovative, and life saving strategies, perserving and saving lives above all else, risking your life in the process.

You, and your Capitol buddies are heroes.

Thus, my standard in these situations is a combination of how much risk each officer submitted himself to, versus how life perserving or taking his actions were.

EG. The lowest on the list is someone that would ambush a peace officer. But, there are different levels when speaking of the confrontation of an armed man and someone standing on the street corner, being beligerent.

And before we get into a debate about tactics or semantics, there is a recent video of a drunk/stoned white guy waving a gun standing on a corner, expresing that carying that weapon was his right, when told repeatedly by officers to put the weapon down, while pointing the weapon at policemen, threatening to fire!

Secret Service....but who's keeping track.

 

[IrishLax]

Setting the O/U and 70.5 posts before this thread goes off the tracks.

I don't know how you have a discussion about "race" in the abstract because it's such a broad term.

My 2 cents is that "color" and "race" are daily becoming less of an issue because there are so many people now who are "mixed" whereas decades and centuries ago interracial marriages were much more frowned upon (if not outright forbidden by law in some cases). As more and more of that happens it becomes less "them" than "us" when talking about people from different heritages.

For my personal experiences, I'm mixed Latino and "white." Latino enough to check the box, receive scholarships, and literally have a family member get mistaken as a valet at a fancy restaurant on account of color... but white enough (thanks, mom #whiteprivilege) that if you didn't see me with a heavy tan or saw my last name or saw me around the rest of my family you'd almost just certainly lump me in the bin "white" at first glance. At my current job, my office is incredibly diverse with a lot of the talent being foreign nationals. It doesn't matter where you're from or what you look like, the hiring process is all about being the most qualified. I've never seen the race topic broached once. On my side of the office we have:
-6 "black" (Sudan, Philadelphia, North Carolina, Jamaica, DC, and one I don't know)
-8 "white" (from all over the US + 1 Ukranian guy)
-4 Hispanic/Latino (I think all born but they're all fluent Spanish or Portuguese speakers)
-6 "Asian" (2x India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran)

Everyone is a happy family. No one needs a "healthy discussion on race" to get through their day treating people as people. And that doesn't even account for all the different religions... so it's always hard for me to appreciate that there is some hypothetical larger over-arching race problem in this country. IMO, you've got a lot of people invested in warping isolated incidents into a narrative in order to justify their existence, and I don't think that's ever going to change. And then you've got maybe the 5% of this country that are actually overtly racist and I don't know what you can do to change someone like that.

I'll close with this fun/incendiary anecdote... the most openly racist people I've ever met are Koreans, and it's not even close.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Secret Service....but who's keeping track.

I of course knew that, but found myself in a bind. I don't know how you refer to your own branch of the service. Or if you do. Or how to you refer to members of the Secret Service. Are you agents, or officers, or something else!

And I didn't know if you wanted it published or broadcasts. But, I will take your quote as a president. Get it? (People don't have any idea what you guys do!)

 

[Grahambo]

I of course knew that, but found myself in a bind. I don't know how you refer to your own branch of the service. Or if you do. Or how to you refer to members of the Secret Service. Are you agents, or officers, or something else!

And I didn't know if you wanted it published or broadcasts. But, I will take your quote as a president. Get it? (People don't have any idea what you guys do!)

Former...to be precise.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Really great post. Hopefully the discussion can be civil.

The bold is interesting to me. I grew up in OH and lived there for 44 years until moving to the south(small town in SC). The city I spent most of the time in while in OH is a diverse city in which blacks and whites intermingle and race conversations flow fairly easily. Since moving to the South I find the exact opposite of what you have found. It seems segregation is strong in the town I am in and their are absolutely no conversations between the races. My daughter was shunned when we first got here by many of the other white girls because she befriended a few black girls. It has been a really hard adjustment for her/us.

This weekend's events make me wonder if a major race war isn't just around the corner. I agree with your sentiment. Let's talk people!

Like a couple of others said, SC seems to be a different animal from the rest of The South. I grew up in the northern part of Alabama, and we all talked with each other about race almost as casually as we talked about the weather. It seems that we pretty much made peace with most of it around the early 70's and stopped making it a major issue of divisiveness. That doesn't mean it was all hand holding and Kum Ba Ya, but it just wasn't a major issue any more. It varies from state to state and town to town, but most of The South has made peace with the past and Blacks & Whites get along well and are comfortable talking about everything with each other.

 

[NDdomer2]

Lax, don't u feel media pushes race in stories more than anything?

 

[JughedJones]

Why is this on the football page?

Are we trying to get me banned?

 

[pkt77242]

Setting the O/U and 70.5 posts before this thread goes off the tracks.

I don't know how you have a discussion about "race" in the abstract because it's such a broad term.

My 2 cents is that "color" and "race" are daily becoming less of an issue because there are so many people now who are "mixed" whereas decades and centuries ago interracial marriages were much more frowned upon (if not outright forbidden by law in some cases). As more and more of that happens it becomes less "them" than "us" when talking about people from different heritages.

For my personal experiences, I'm mixed Latino and "white." Latino enough to check the box, receive scholarships, and literally have a family member get mistaken as a valet at a fancy restaurant on account of color... but white enough (thanks, mom #whiteprivilege) that if you didn't see me with a heavy tan or saw my last name or saw me around the rest of my family you'd almost just certainly lump me in the bin "white" at first glance. At my current job, my office is incredibly diverse with a lot of the talent being foreign nationals. It doesn't matter where you're from or what you look like, the hiring process is all about being the most qualified. I've never seen the race topic broached once. On my side of the office we have:
-6 "black" (Sudan, Philadelphia, North Carolina, Jamaica, DC, and one I don't know)
-8 "white" (from all over the US + 1 Ukranian guy)
-4 Hispanic/Latino (I think all born but they're all fluent Spanish or Portuguese speakers)
-6 "Asian" (2x India, Nepal, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran)

Everyone is a happy family. No one needs a "healthy discussion on race" to get through their day treating people as people. And that doesn't even account for all the different religions... so it's always hard for me to appreciate that there is some hypothetical larger over-arching race problem in this country. IMO, you've got a lot of people invested in warping isolated incidents into a narrative in order to justify their existence, and I don't think that's ever going to change. And then you've got maybe the 5% of this country that are actually overtly racist and I don't know what you can do to change someone like that.

I'll close with this fun/incendiary anecdote... the most openly racist people I've ever met are Koreans, and it's not even close.

Um, have you looked at the studies on racism because everyone that I have read seem to peg the % of people show explicit racism as much higher and that isn't taking into account people who are implicitly racist.

AP poll: U.S. majority have prejudice against blacks

Chris Rock is right: White Americans are a lot less racist than they used to be. - The Washington Post

You may be more racist than you think, study says - CNN.com

The scary part is if explicit racism really falls somewhere between 25-40% of the population, that that number doesn't even take into account implicit racism which is harder to measure. Anthony Greenwald a professor at the University of Washington has an interesting test that people can take to measure their implicit attitudes towards various things such as race, gender, sexual orientation and various other things.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

 

[FDNYIrish1]

In my opinion, these recent events are less about race than a matter of Black vs blue. I work in the neighborhood this happened in. I will openly admit, I more likely than not will side with the police in these matters. Clearly by my name I am not a cop, but many friends and relatives are members of the NYPD. Many of those are in my inner circle, and some of the kindest people you will meet. I've spent holidays, births, and everything in between with them. And I will assure you, not one of them is an evil person that sets out to work to do harm to anyone.
There is no doubt a huge mistrust between them and the communities they serve. Most people have never been to these neighborhoods and see the dynamic and how it can change perceptions and opinions. I operate with the PD every day and see how they are treated by the public. It's not pretty.
I know it's unpopular to say, but Eric Garner was no innocent victim, and neither was Brown. I'm not saying by any means they should have died, but they absolutely contributed to the circumstances. I don't know where we can start to make things better or if it's even possible at this point. And I think there are some major players that helped lead to yesterday's events. It's foolish and naive to think that a weak minded psycho wasnt influenced by the rhetoric of the past couple of months.
Sorry for being long winded guys.

 

[yankeehater]

In my opinion, these recent events are less about race than a matter of Black vs blue. I work in the neighborhood this happened in. I will openly admit, I more likely than not will side with the police in these matters. Clearly by my name I am not a cop, but many friends and relatives are members of the NYPD. Many of those are in my inner circle, and some of the kindest people you will meet. I've spent holidays, births, and everything in between with them. And I will assure you, not one of them is an evil person that sets out to work to do harm to anyone.
There is no doubt a huge mistrust between them and the communities they serve. Most people have never been to these neighborhoods and see the dynamic and how it can change perceptions and opinions. I operate with the PD every day and see how they are treated by the public. It's not pretty.
I know it's unpopular to say, but Eric Garner was no innocent victim, and neither was Brown. I'm not saying by any means they should have died, but they absolutely contributed to the circumstances. I don't know where we can start to make things better or if it's even possible at this point. And I think there are some major players that helped lead to yesterday's events. It's foolish and naive to think that a weak minded psycho wasnt influenced by the rhetoric of the past couple of months.
Sorry for being long winded guys.

Props to you!