Know Your Rights

[nlroma1o]

Nevermind just read the above posts.

 

[JadeBrecks]

Honest question. Is it considered an open carried weapon to have you hand gun holstered on the outside of your belt? Or is that considered concealed?

That is considered open carried. Concealed carry you can't be able to see the weapon.

 

[jerboski]

Jadebreks,

I respect your opinions and beliefs and I can see you are as firm with yours as I am with mine, I guess we will have to disagree on the open carry. I have enjoyed the discussion but my wife is scolding me now for Getting on the computer every 5 minutes to respond ha ha take care bro and be safe (interpret that how you will)

 

[Grahambo]

I'm sure the three dead in the Oregon mall shooting would have taken a bit of overkill to defend themselves rather than nothing.

And I'm sure there are officers on this page that would think its too much:

Officer Down Memorial Page (ODMP)

 

[NDohio]

My thoughts on this. I do not believe baiting cops is ever a good thing especially with a firearm. There is a difference between this conversation happening during a stop or during a set up. Both people remained calm during this interaction. The cop was far more polite than any cop I have run into. He however disregarded everything the kid was saying. I personally can't tell you if everything the kid said was right or not but assuming it was I would have to say IN the video the kid was more respectful. Everything he says and when he says it is in reference to what the cop is going to do. Now if the kid baited the cop this exact interaction shouldn't have taken place. Being a law abiding citizen who carries I can tell you this encounter happens and the cops overstep their boundaries. It is funny however that people are outraged when a person slams a cop like this but nobody cares when the cops overstep their boundaries and take peoples firearms unlawfully.

Fair enough. I have issues with the video though:

* It is apparent that the kid in this video was attempting to make a point. He obviously wanted to be approached by a police officer. I would assume that he actually would have preferred the Police Officer overreact(the way many on here seem to think most PO's would) and have more of a confrontation. To me this is completely disresspectful.

* This kid only wanted to make a point. It didn't matter what this PO said or how he reacted, this kid was going to spew law at him at a ridiculous pace. He had no intention of having a decent conversation with this PO. The PO seemed like he was only attempting to react to the phone calls that had been received by dispatch and defuse the situation guickly. I don't believe the PO was disregarding the words coming at him, I think the kid was not allowing for a decent conversation.

* If I lived in that neighborhood; had called the police to report a man, not familiar to the neighborhood, was walking around with a gun in plain view; and no police officer had approached this man I would be very angry with the PD.

* Have you ever called the police because you have seen a vehicle driving around your neighborhood in a suspicious way? I have. And I have had people call on me(I was house hunting). If you see things that are out of the ordinary in your domain, you are gonna want to know what is going on. This PO was there to serve the community. Would you prefer that a member of the community approach a stranger carrying a weapon in their neighborhood? I wouldn't.

And I think you are completely incorrect with your last sentence. America is currently angry about the prospect of gun ownership rights changing.

 

[IrishLion]

The guy in the video sounds like someone I would punch in the face. The cops were respectful; just cooperate, don't be a douche.

 

[JadeBrecks]

Jadebreks,

I respect your opinions and beliefs and I can see you are as firm with yours as I am with mine, I guess we will have to disagree on the open carry. I have enjoyed the discussion but my wife is scolding me now for Getting on the computer every 5 minutes to respond ha ha take care bro and be safe (interpret that how you will)

No problem. If you do come back later could you please answer why a it is ok for a cop to open carry but anybody else can't. Any other police officer please feel free to answer.

As far as the wife yelling I hear you there. Every time I post vBookie events she is on my case about it. Have a good one.

 

[Grahambo]

No problem. If you do come back later could you please answer why a it is ok for a cop to open carry but anybody else can't. Any other police officer please feel free to answer.

As far as the wife yelling I hear you there. Every time I post vBookie events she is on my case about it. Have a good one.

Is it the posting or because you're a vbookie? I mean damn..you gotta bring the bacon home somehow!

 

[JadeBrecks]

* Have you ever called the police because you have seen a vehicle driving around your neighborhood in a suspicious way? I have. And I have had people call on me(I was house hunting). If you see things that are out of the ordinary in your domain, you are gonna want to know what is going on. This PO was there to serve the community. Would you prefer that a member of the community approach a stranger carrying a weapon in their neighborhood? I wouldn't.

I posted above what happened when I needed the police. I have no problem with the cops coming up to him. You want to ask all the questions you want go ahead. What I have a problem with is the taking of his firearm thus detaining him or he will loose his firearm. If the cops want to ask someone why they are driving then go ahead. If they don't want to and aren't doing anything illegal than you can't force them to stop and answer your questions. In this case it would be like taking those drivers keys and trying to make them answer your questions until the supervisor showed up and said let them go.

I think my big thing is I see this incident taking place without being set up and if the person isn't as well versed in the law as this person I see them getting taken advantage of by the police officers even though they are law abiding citizens.

 

[jerboski]

No problem. If you do come back later could you please answer why a it is ok for a cop to open carry but anybody else can't. Any other police officer please feel free to answer.

As far as the wife yelling I hear you there. Every time I post vBookie events she is on my case about it. Have a good one.

I would say we open carry for tactical reasons and officer safety reasons, officers have a duty to respond to crimes or violent situations where citizens arent so that would be my answer

 

[JadeBrecks]

Is it the posting or because you're a vbookie? I mean damn..you gotta bring the bacon home somehow!

More so the time it takes and the specific timing to post and finish the events. I can't post some of this stuff days in advance because the odds aren't out. On Saturday the final odds come out between 9-10 am and the early games start at noon so I have to post them then. Then if I post a good handful of games that can take some good time. If I didn't get in trouble for spending time posting them I would just get in trouble for whatever I did with that time anyways so its all good. grin:

P.S. Krogers doesn't take vMoney.

 

[JadeBrecks]

I would say we open carry for tactical reasons and officer safety reasons, officers have a duty to respond to crimes or violent situations where citizens arent so that would be my answer

I would just say there is a chance I may be in that store, walking down that street, or in that area at the time of that crime. I will be there before you guys get there and I will want to protect my family and myself from whatever that may be. Now shut down the computer before you get in more trouble!

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

I'm sure they took the gun for safety reasons. But here that legally doesn't matter.

And it's not "my way of thinking", it's the Supreme Court's way of thinking. This is the 4th Amendment, and all this law has been settled for about 30 years.

The 4th Amendment does a lot to defeat crime prevention. But that's the cost of a 4th Amendment.

i couldn't hear all of the audio bc i'm watching at work on low volume. did they actually stop and frisk him, or is that presumed? the video comes on too late, so i would imagine their conversation is the only way to determine this. if it's unclear from the video, it's possible that he handed over the gun upon request. that would quash any search claims on consent grounds, despite him stating "i dont consent to searches...seizure".

i have a hard time seeing violations without knowing whether there was a stop and frisk. without that, all discussion stems from a presumption upon the nature of the key event, how the gun got into the cop's possession. and of course that event isn't in the video.

 

[IrishinSyria]

No problem. If you do come back later could you please answer why a it is ok for a cop to open carry but anybody else can't. Any other police officer please feel free to answer.

As far as the wife yelling I hear you there. Every time I post vBookie events she is on my case about it. Have a good one.

Police are well trained, highly supervised, generally wear very distinguishable uniforms, and are held accountable for the guns they are issued by the state for the sole purpose of preserving public safety and the rule of law. Some random schmuck open carrying in a city or mall is none of those things.

 

[Downinthebend]

+1 and reps.

I have to laugh at comments that police outside the ghetto don't do anything except bother kids drinking, writing tickets and hounding people. My wife's best friend's husband is a PO in a pretty upper middle class suburb. The amount of drugs they are tracking and busting on a weekly basis is eye opening. That **** is dangerous and most of it happens outside the public's view. If you live in an area that is relatively drug free, instead of cursing the cops and trying to belittle them, we should be thanking them. Hopefully you never need their help, but when that day comes, I know they will be there when I am in danger.

I find this post interesting. Why do you think drug use deserves a violent (police) response? If you think it is wrong, great, I think it is wrong and dangerous too. I certainly don't have any desire to use any of the currently illegal drugs. I also have no desire to become an alcholoic, to smoke at all, etc.

However, I don't think pointing a gun at people who disagree with me is a morally or sociably correct action, just like I wouldn't want guns pointed at people who don't believe in my religion, my sports teams, my lifestyle, ETC. Why do you think that cops should be spending time caring what consenting adults put in their body?

Can you really look at someone who poses no harm to anyone but themself and say "I think you should have your house broken into by armed men and be imprisoned, shot, and/or have your property taken because I don't agree with your lifestyle that isn't threatening me "

 

[JadeBrecks]

Police are well trained, highly supervised, generally wear very distinguishable uniforms, and are held accountable for the guns they are issued by the state for the sole purpose of preserving public safety and the rule of law. Some random schmuck open carrying in a city or mall is none of those things.

First of all you start out by calling me a schmuck? Second I am well trained. I have taken several courses on my own and have trained in my back yard. Third you think I wouldn't be held accountable for my firearm because I am not a cop? And the last thing because you don't think I am "well trained, highly supervised, generally wear very distinguishable uniforms, and are held accountable for the guns they are issued by the state for the sole purpose of preserving public safety and the rule of law" I am not allowed to protect myself or my family with a pistol on the outside of my belt verses the inside?

 

[PraetorianND]

First of all you start out by calling me a schmuck? Second I am well trained. I have taken several courses on my own and have trained in my back yard. Third you think I wouldn't be held accountable for my firearm because I am not a cop? And the last thing because you don't think I am "well trained, highly supervised, generally wear very distinguishable uniforms, and are held accountable for the guns they are issued by the state for the sole purpose of preserving public safety and the rule of law" I am not allowed to protect myself or my family with a pistol on the outside of my belt verses the inside?

I may be wrong but I don't think he meant any of those things. I think he meant there are two categories of people police and everyone else. Police are well trained compared to everyone else (this isn't necessarily true, lots of prior military, security, etc carrying weapons). I don't think he was calling you specifically a shmuck, but that basket of people shmucks; this is a common colloquialism for a non-professional (i.e. shouldn't be taken as an insult in this context). He's not saying you wouldn't be held accountable for what you do or is done with your gun, he's saying that cops are held to a higher standard because they're cops and with all of that training is an assumed higher duty of care (not sure if this is true).

I think everyone is being pretty congenial here. Great debate thus far!

 

[Grahambo]

First of all you start out by calling me a schmuck? Second I am well trained. I have taken several courses on my own and have trained in my back yard. Third you think I wouldn't be held accountable for my firearm because I am not a cop? And the last thing because you don't think I am "well trained, highly supervised, generally wear very distinguishable uniforms, and are held accountable for the guns they are issued by the state for the sole purpose of preserving public safety and the rule of law" I am not allowed to protect myself or my family with a pistol on the outside of my belt verses the inside?

Yeah. Definitely don't think he was referring to you personally as a shumck. Actually, I don't think anything was directed at you as he was answering your question.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

First of all you start out by calling me a schmuck? Second I am well trained. I have taken several courses on my own and have trained in my back yard. Third you think I wouldn't be held accountable for my firearm because I am not a cop? And the last thing because you don't think I am "well trained, highly supervised, generally wear very distinguishable uniforms, and are held accountable for the guns they are issued by the state for the sole purpose of preserving public safety and the rule of law" I am not allowed to protect myself or my family with a pistol on the outside of my belt verses the inside?

Help me understand:

His point was, in part, that cops are required to be trained. That makes them more qualified to carry.

Your response was to argue that you ARE trained, which makes you more qualified to carry. I personally believe that to be commendable.

What about people who aren't trained? No regulations there. You obviously felt it important to receive training. What about "some schmuck" who just decides one day to own a gun?

 

[RallySonsOfND]

I've come across a cop or 2 that I have ZERO trust in them with a gun. I have more trust in JadeBreaks whom I've never met, than them.

 

[JadeBrecks]

Help me understand:

His point was, in part, that cops are required to be trained. That makes them more qualified to carry.

Your response was to argue that you ARE trained, which makes you more qualified to carry. I personally believe that to be commendable.

What about people who aren't trained? No regulations there. You obviously felt it important to receive training. What about "some schmuck" who just decides one day to own a gun?

I don't believe there should be regulation there. I believe it is important because I am protecting my family. Any edge I could possibly get I am going to take. Be it training, the gun, the magazine or even the ammo I want every extra inch I can get in case that time would come. The world isn't perfect. The more you try to make it so the more dangerous you make it for others.

 

[PraetorianND]

I don't believe there should be regulation there. I believe it is important because I am protecting my family. Any edge I could possibly get I am going to take. Be it training, the gun, the magazine or even the ammo I want every extra inch I can get in case that time would come. The world isn't perfect. The more you try to make it so the more dangerous you make it for others.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

 

[notredomer23]

It sounds more like you are all about childish displays of your rights under a 236 year old collection of laws designed for an 18th Century society. Just keep chanting that mantra when the next lunatic with constitutional rights blasts his way through a school/theatre/mall.

Just what about the laws is designed for an 18th century society? Thanks in advance.

 

[Downinthebend]

Speaking of laws designed long ago... Obama basically overturned a 1000 year old precedent in western civilization (Habeas Corpus, right to jury)

 

[Buster Bluth]

They more you try to make people safe with laws and regulations the more you hurt the law abiding citizens.

"The more laws, the less justice."

Not sure who said it, I think it was Cicero.

 

[PraetorianND]

They more you try to make people safe with laws and regulations the more you hurt the law abiding citizens. You don't harm criminals with more laws. They are criminals because they don't follow laws. The more places you take guns out of the more slaughter zones you set up. Look at the mass shootings. They all are in "gun free" zones where people can't defend themselves legally. People make laws to stop the "schmucks" and criminals and all they do is tie the hands of people willing to follow those laws.

So are you saying we should have guns in schools? Like, I can send my kid to school with a gun for personal protection?

 

[JadeBrecks]

I think thats pretty close to the definition of a straw man.

Great minds think alike. I started my post before you posted yours. Didn't even know you said that.

 

[PraetorianND]

So administrators and teachers have guns? I'm really trying to get what you're saying. If you're going to say something as general as "they(sic) more you try to make people safe with laws and regulations the more you hurt the law abiding citizens" then you should offer me something so I can make sense of it.

How many shootings are happening in gun-free countries through the world? How many shootings are happening in gun free zones in the U.S. vs gun allowed zones in the U.S.? (I don't know the answers to these questions and they are not hypothetical).

I'm also not saying we ban guns. I'm not for that, and you can look through every post I have made thus far. I am in support of the Supreme Court's decision to overturn the DC handgun ban and thus do not support gun bans. I personally think that most gun bans and gun restrictions should be considered unconstitutional per District of Columbia v. Heller as I have said numerous times.

Feel free to jump down my throat over a "straw man." I'm asking for some sort of proposed solution; I'm not going to try to argue the merits of a gun ban or the constitutionality of one. I'm also not here to debate all the arguments on both sides of the issue.

When you say gun-free zones lead to killings because those laws are making them slaughter zones (which I assume means a place they can kill without fear of being shot back at), how would you recommend we fix that with less regulation? Make people allowed to carry guns there? Like armed guards or teachers with guns, or yes, students with guns?

 

[JadeBrecks]

The straw man was referring to your idea of kids carrying guns. I believe if you are allowed to carry it outside the school or other gun free zones you should be allowed to carry inside them. Be it a teacher a faculty member a parent or a construction worker. Im not claiming you are for gun bans. My original comment was about the "What about the others" comment.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

I just saw this, and skipped the 3rd page. But if this kid was in my law school and did this, most people would think he is a tool.