ThePiombino
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Just stop it.
Is Kelly a REALLY good coach?
- Thread starter Crazy Balki
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gkIrish
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What exactly is he saying that is so controversial? A poster said Weis left the team in "horrible shape." That's just not true at all from a talent perspective. 15/22 starters were Weis recruits.
Brian Kelly >>>>> Charlie Weis but let's not act like Weis didn't recruit well and BK had nothing to work with.
RDU Irish
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Weis brought in talent but failed to build depth. 2007 class had five defenders of the 18 recruits - that includes a late move on Brian Smith and 3 star Ian Williams who turned into a pro. 2006 we brought in 28 and only 10 were defenders (and half of those were secondary).
2008 was a great class, tons of talent - just too little too late when your d-line is the last place frosh should be leaned on heavily. Look at 2004 and 2005 and it doesn't take long to realize why we sucked in 2007/2008. Most of those guys were gone in 2012 - KLM, Cave, Goodman were holdovers but not the core of the team. The 2009 class was not nearly as impressive on paper but they got a lot more done than the three recruiting classes before them. What was the non-common factor that could possibly explain that?
2008 was a great class, tons of talent - just too little too late when your d-line is the last place frosh should be leaned on heavily. Look at 2004 and 2005 and it doesn't take long to realize why we sucked in 2007/2008. Most of those guys were gone in 2012 - KLM, Cave, Goodman were holdovers but not the core of the team. The 2009 class was not nearly as impressive on paper but they got a lot more done than the three recruiting classes before them. What was the non-common factor that could possibly explain that?
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Charlie Weis saved Notre Dame football. That might be hard for some to accept, but it's very true. He wasn't a good coach. In fact, one could argue he's a horrible head coach on many levels. But he did a ton for Notre Dame.
He did a great job in 2005 and 2006. The 2005 team was supposed to start 0-6 (or 1-5, if the analyst was being generous). Notre Dame wasn't just considered "irrelevant"... they were considered really, really bad. Charlies Weis put together two really good seasons that then lead to some very impressive recruiting classes during his tenure. Realize that Weis recruited three potential NFL All-Pros (Martin has already earned the accolades, Harrison Smith plays at a level where he should have already earned the accolades but voters are dumb, and Eifert is currently playing at an All-Pro level) among many other uber-talented players. These players were the backbone of the championship run in 2012, which spring-boarded the best Kelly recruiting classes of '13 and '14 that have laid a great foundation for continued success.
Weis was not good at developing talent or running a program or motivating players or... the list goes on and on. But what's absurd to think about is that if Dayne Crist wasn't a bust and had played at a 5
level, Kelly probably wins 10+ games in 2010, 2011, and 2012. Maybe even wins a championship somewhere in there. Weis screwed up a lot, but the #1 "do over" would signing Crist + not signing a QB in the '09 class + signing bad QBs in the '10 class. If he even gets a half-decent QB at any point in those three classes it's crazy to think what ND might've done in those early Kelly years. We're seeing this year what the offense could/should look right with even decent QB play (Kizer still grades out rather poorly in some respects... however he grades out at an A+ in my book for the "stone cold killer" gene).
He did a great job in 2005 and 2006. The 2005 team was supposed to start 0-6 (or 1-5, if the analyst was being generous). Notre Dame wasn't just considered "irrelevant"... they were considered really, really bad. Charlies Weis put together two really good seasons that then lead to some very impressive recruiting classes during his tenure. Realize that Weis recruited three potential NFL All-Pros (Martin has already earned the accolades, Harrison Smith plays at a level where he should have already earned the accolades but voters are dumb, and Eifert is currently playing at an All-Pro level) among many other uber-talented players. These players were the backbone of the championship run in 2012, which spring-boarded the best Kelly recruiting classes of '13 and '14 that have laid a great foundation for continued success.
Weis was not good at developing talent or running a program or motivating players or... the list goes on and on. But what's absurd to think about is that if Dayne Crist wasn't a bust and had played at a 5
level, Kelly probably wins 10+ games in 2010, 2011, and 2012. Maybe even wins a championship somewhere in there. Weis screwed up a lot, but the #1 "do over" would signing Crist + not signing a QB in the '09 class + signing bad QBs in the '10 class. If he even gets a half-decent QB at any point in those three classes it's crazy to think what ND might've done in those early Kelly years. We're seeing this year what the offense could/should look right with even decent QB play (Kizer still grades out rather poorly in some respects... however he grades out at an A+ in my book for the "stone cold killer" gene).
aubeirish
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Charlie Weis saved Notre Dame football. That might be hard for some to accept, but it's very true. He wasn't a good coach. In fact, one could argue he's a horrible head coach on many levels. But he did a ton for Notre Dame.
He did a great job in 2005 and 2006. The 2005 team was supposed to start 0-6 (or 1-5, if the analyst was being generous). Notre Dame wasn't just considered "irrelevant"... they were considered really, really bad. Charlies Weis put together two really good seasons that then lead to some very impressive recruiting classes during his tenure. Realize that Weis recruited three potential NFL All-Pros (Martin has already earned the accolades, Harrison Smith plays at a level where he should have already earned the accolades but voters are dumb, and Eifert is currently playing at an All-Pro level) among many other uber-talented players. These players were the backbone of the championship run in 2012, which spring-boarded the best Kelly recruiting classes of '13 and '14 that have laid a great foundation for continued success.
Weis was not good at developing talent or running a program or motivating players or... the list goes on and on. But what's absurd to think about is that if Dayne Crist wasn't a bust and had played at a 5
Bravo. +1.
IrishJayhawk
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Charlie Weis saved Notre Dame football. That might be hard for some to accept, but it's very true. He wasn't a good coach. In fact, one could argue he's a horrible head coach on many levels. But he did a ton for Notre Dame.
He did a great job in 2005 and 2006. The 2005 team was supposed to start 0-6 (or 1-5, if the analyst was being generous). Notre Dame wasn't just considered "irrelevant"... they were considered really, really bad. Charlies Weis put together two really good seasons that then lead to some very impressive recruiting classes during his tenure. Realize that Weis recruited three potential NFL All-Pros (Martin has already earned the accolades, Harrison Smith plays at a level where he should have already earned the accolades but voters are dumb, and Eifert is currently playing at an All-Pro level) among many other uber-talented players. These players were the backbone of the championship run in 2012, which spring-boarded the best Kelly recruiting classes of '13 and '14 that have laid a great foundation for continued success.
Weis was not good at developing talent or running a program or motivating players or... the list goes on and on. But what's absurd to think about is that if Dayne Crist wasn't a bust and had played at a 5
This is exactly right. And it's why I think Kelly has been treated unfairly here at times. I defended Tommy Rees a lot because he was a pretty darn productive quarterback. But he was obviously very limited. Kelly got an incredible amount out of him. Imagine if Jimmy Clausen would have stayed...
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kmoose
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Brady Quinn, Maurice Stovall, and Jeff Samardzija all flourished under Weis. And Golden Tate developed as well as anyone in College Football, in his 3 years at ND. Weis did a below average job at developing talent, I agree. But it's not like he didn't develop anyone.
IrishJayhawk
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True. But I think you just tapped the list there.
kmoose
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David Bruton was a 3*, as were Sergio Brown, Darius Walker, and Ryan Harris.
Bruton, Brown, and Harris are still on NFL rosters, today. Walker was an NFL bust, but had a very productive career at ND, including back to back 1,000 + yard seasons under Weis.
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Quinn struggled moving up a level, though he is the strongest case by far of being developed."I'm not really what to think about the Shark, but in terms of progression during college he certainly produced at a much higher level than was expected.
Stovall never learned how to run routes, and neither did Tate. Tate eventually got better after a couple years in the NFL, Stovall didn't pick it up and got himself cut. I don't think either of them are really good poster children for being developed.
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Brown was very bad in college indicating that Weis did a poor job of developing him. He went undrafted, but had much more talent than that.
Bruton and Zbikowksi are both examples of guys he developed well at safety. Ryan Harris is another good one. But in general, he did a really bad job of getting the most out of people at positions that weren't involved in the passing game. He had a lot of guys that looked lost under him flourish under Kelly.
ThePiombino
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Yeah, Weis recruited well, mostly on offense and he also didn't develop anyone other than offensive skill position. The cupboard may as well been bare.
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pkt77242
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Bullshit. It was nothing compared to what Weis inherited from Willingham. Were you a fan of ND back in the early 2000's?
IrishJayhawk
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Team Recruiting Rankings (Rivals).
2002 - 24 (Mostly Davie, I think)
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2002 Team Recruiting Rankings
2003 - 12 (Willingham's first full class - a good one)
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2003 Team Recruiting Rankings
2004 - 91 (best recruits: Junior Jabbie, Anthony Vernaglia)
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2004 Team Recruiting Rankings
2005 - 40 (mostly Willingham, Weis finished it off)
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2005 Team Recruiting Rankings
2006 - 8 (Weis' first class, 28 members of the class)
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2006 Team Recruiting Rankings
2007 - 8
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2007 Team Recruiting Rankings
2008 - 2
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2008 Team Recruiting Rankings
2009 - 21
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2009 Team Recruiting Rankings
2010 - 14 (Mostly Weis, Kelly closed it out)
Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2010 Team Recruiting Rankings
Kelly had some work to do. But Weis proved that you could still recruit at Notre Dame (although he had glaring weaknesses at certain positions).
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irishfanjho15
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That 2006 class of Weis' was by and large a bust. Aldridge got hurt and lots of guys left ND as transfers. In fact I believe it was ranked on a top ten of class busts. I'll see if I can find the link.
irishfanjho15
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IrishJayhawk
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Sure. Aldridge's injury was huge. Reuland, Carufel, Frazer, and Jones all transferred. And Sam Young never really panned out.
But the point is that Weis proved that ND could recruit. There was some talent on the team compared to Willingham.
IrishJayhawk
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Interesting. Good find.
irishfanjho15
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Also in 06, 07, 08, 09 classes only 9 DE/DTs were taken. Only about four of those were productive players.
No wonder ND's defense was so bad.
No wonder ND's defense was so bad.
IrishJayhawk
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Right. He recruited certain positions well. But both lines were a major issue.
irishfanjho15
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I agree, the problem was all the talent, by and large, was wasted with crap development. Lots of quality offense, very little quality defense when it was all said and done. I just do not understand how a guy like Weis, with his connections and coaching background could never say, "Damn, I need to find someone who knows how to develop players". I guess the NFL will do that for you, you don't improve most every day, you're gone. Head coaches can be significantly elevated by the assistants they surround themselves with.
kmoose
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To be fair, Weis' O line recruiting was good. Most of the guys just didn't pan out for one reason or another.
2006
Matt Carufel ****
Eric Olsen ****
Chris Stewart ****
Dan Wenger ****
Sam Young *****
2007
Andrew Nuss ****
Matt Romine ****
2008
Braxston Cave ****
Lane Clelland ****
Trevor Robinson ****
2009
Alex Bullard ****
Zack Martin ****
Chris Watt ****
Weis got plenty of 4 star guys, so I would say his recruiting was not bad. But yeah, most of these guys just did NOT pan out..........
pkt77242
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I think it goes back to Weis (and his assistants) not being able to develop OL and DL players (and some other positions as well).
ThePiombino
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How can you argue against my statement? Other than skill position O, who did Weis develop? Please, I'm dying to know. As for being a ND fan- nah, just started yesterday. Tell me all about the early 2000s...
mick2
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I'm confused? you jumped on my post because I said that weis left some nice pieces for kelly to work with, you said "just stop it"
now you're starting a completely different argument about weis developing guys?
just trying to keep up.
ThePiombino
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I'm replying to another poster. You see the quoted text? See your name in there anywhere? Now skedaddle and let the adults talk.
mick2
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ha, you were originally replying to me though. And this is a public forum, I don't need to see my name to post.
And to answer your question, I can think of 3 guys off of the top of my head that weis developed into NFL players
Ryan harris, sam young, trevor robinson. all on nfl rosters and i think harris is starting.
shall i find more? or will you come up with some lame definition for what you mean by develop so you can dismiss the three guys I just mentioned.
I am not saying weis was great, but you can't just say he never did anything while he was here at ND just because you didn't like him.
NDRock
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Weis spent all of Fall camp in 2007 to work on some sort of WV Rich Rod spread offense only to use it for one half of the first game. That may have been one of the worst coaching moves I have ever seen.
He did have quite a few recruiting victories here and his players seemed to really like him.
He did have quite a few recruiting victories here and his players seemed to really like him.
