Is Kelly a REALLY good coach?

[Cali_domer]

My man, I'm totally with you that Longo sucks, but ND students do have very different academic lives. It's not just the going to class or not going to class, it's that they have to actually work out side of class and don't get passes because they're on the sports team.

I can see the SEC players making it to 75% of their classes, but the actual work they have to do is very different I bet.

This is nothing new, ND has always been different. It's a miracle we ever one anything because all the other teams cheat.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the view of the SEC just blowing off class is silly and only fits an agenda of excuses that other schools cant be as successful. Sure, they might get some benefits that other kids don't, but they go to class.

It's not just the SEC, and the academic rigor is just one aspect of why it's much harder to win at ND than other schools. This really boils down to ND not willing to compromise its core values for top-tier competitiveness in CFB, and some fans--being unwilling to accept that--blaming the coach, or the AD, or the BoT, etc.

NDNation has been bitching for decades that if our BoT would just open its wallet for an elite coach like Stoops, we'd be back to winning titles again within 3 years. It's just not that simple. We'd have to give up a lot more than money to get back to where we once were.

ND has always made students go to class, that is nothing new.

True. But when Holtz was steamrolling people with Vinny Cerrato's recruits, ND had a ton of unique advantages over the rest of the CFB world to keep us ahead. Today, virtually all of those advantages have disappeared, though the obstacles to winning have all stayed in place.

I assume(most would that Meyer and Saban) those coaches would be successful here and that's a safe bet.

Meyer disagrees with you. He turned down ND in favor of a football factory because we weren't willing to give him carte blanche in recruiting illiterate athletes.

Kelly is nowhere near the coaches they are and wins 8 games so I am willing to say they could win more.

Kelly's record at GVSU, CMU and UC compares very favorably to Meyer's pre-UF and Saban's pre-'Bama. Since then, the latter two have been coaching at football factories, and Kelly has not. So it's not a fair comparison.

 

[Cali_domer]

True. But when Holtz was steamrolling people with Vinny Cerrato's recruits, ND had a ton of unique advantages over the rest of the CFB world to keep us ahead. Today, virtually all of those advantages have disappeared, though the obstacles to winning have all stayed in place.

How does Stanford do it? How does Baylor do it and Oregon(Who all recruit worse then us). system and good coaches



Meyer disagrees with you. He turned down ND in favor of a football factory because we weren't willing to give him carte blanche in recruiting illiterate athletes.

We have made a lot of the changes Meyer wanted, he could still win more then Kelly. Again Kelly is nowhere near the coach he is


Kelly's record at GVSU, CMU and UC compares very favorably to Meyer's pre-UF and Saban pre-'Bama. Since then, the latter two have been coaching at football factories, and Kelly has not. So it's not a fair comparison.

Okay maybe not fair but looking at the teams and the way they're coached it's easy to tell who the elite coaches are.


Do you believe Kelly is a better or equal coach to Saban or Meyer?


To win at Notre Dame you need to be an excellent coach or Elite. It's possible

 

[koonja]

It's not just the SEC, and the academic rigor is just one aspect of why it's much harder to win at ND than other schools. This really boils down to ND not willing to compromise its core values for top-tier competitiveness in CFB, and some fans--being unwilling to accept that--blaming the coach, or the AD, or the BoT, etc.

NDNation has been bitching for decades that if our BoT would just open its wallet for an elite coach like Stoops, we'd be back to winning titles again within 3 years. It's just not that simple. We'd have to give up a lot more than money to get back to where we once were.



True. But when Holtz was steamrolling people with Vinny Cerrato's recruits, ND had a ton of unique advantages over the rest of the CFB world to keep us ahead. Today, virtually all of those advantages have disappeared, though the obstacles to winning have all stayed in place.



Meyer disagrees with you. He turned down ND in favor of a football factory because we weren't willing to give him carte blanche in recruiting illiterate athletes.



Kelly's record at GVSU, CMU and UC compares very favorably to Meyer's pre-UF and Saban's pre-'Bama. Since then, the latter two have been coaching at football factories, and Kelly has not. So it's not a fair comparison.

Which makes me hate that I grew up a ND fan, because the next 50 years of my CFB life are probably going to suck.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Meyer disagrees with you. He turned down ND in favor of a football factory because we weren't willing to give him carte blanche in recruiting illiterate athletes.

What is the genesis of this?

I see it get repeated but that doesn't match what I was hearing at the time. For one thing, ND totally lowballed Meyer compared to his Florida offer because they were paying Willingham's severance and from Meyer's POV it looked like ND wanted a contract they could eat. They were about to move onto their fourth coach in 10 years and it made ND look impatient and its expectations unrealistic.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Do you believe Kelly is a better or equal coach to Saban or Kelly?

Definitely as to the latter.

 

[Rocket89]

Meyer disagrees with you. He turned down ND in favor of a football factory because we weren't willing to give him carte blanche in recruiting illiterate athletes.

This cannot be stressed enough.

The fact that we're forced to point to Saban and Meyer--perhaps two of the greatest coaches of all-time--is proof enough how hard it is to win at Notre Dame. Even more damning, the latter is such an elite coach and even he won't touch the job without severe changes and master control of the program.

I don't think anyone should be necessarily happy with the state of the program at the present but there seems to be an awful lot of dancing around the difficulties at ND--which even Urban Meyer has no problem admitting--in favor of complaining that we don't have a strength coach who yells loud enough.

 

[koonja]

This cannot be stressed enough.

The fact that we're forced to point to Saban and Meyer--perhaps two of the greatest coaches of all-time--is proof enough how hard it is to win at Notre Dame. Even more damning, the latter is such an elite coach and even he won't touch the job without severe changes and master control of the program.

I don't think anyone should be necessarily happy with the state of the program at the present but there seems to be an awful lot of dancing around the difficulties at ND--which even Urban Meyer has no problem admitting in favor of complaining that we don't have a strength coach who yells loud enough.

But that's an issue that's easily remedied, whereas changing the academic issues is not. So bitch, I will.

 

[Cali_domer]

Definitely as to the latter.

Was rushing out the door dropping the kids off at school.lol

Anyway time for me to move on(off this subject,makes me a tad to passionate over something that is silly) because Kelly is going to be here one more year and time to saddle up.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

How does Stanford do it? How does Baylor do it and Oregon(Who all recruit worse then us). system and good coaches.

System and coaching is a big part of it. But so is scheduling and program control.

We have made a lot of the changes Meyer wanted, he could still win more then Kelly.

Such as? Meyer didn't turn down ND because we lacked a training table and FieldTurf.

Again Kelly is nowhere near the coach he is.

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Okay maybe not fair but looking at the teams and the way they're coached it's easy to tell who the elite coaches are.

I disagree. It's easy to tell which programs: (1) have the most resources; and (2) are most dedicated to winning. ND is lacking in (2) for mostly commendable reasons.

Do you believe Kelly is a better or equal coach to Saban or Meyer?

Impossible to know without giving him 4-5 years at a football factory. As I mentioned above, Kelly's record at GVSU, CMU and UC compare very favorably to Meyer's pre-UF and Saban's pre-'Bama. So I think it's likely that Kelly would regularly be competing for championships at a football factory.

To win at Notre Dame you need to be an excellent coach or Elite. It's possible.

No. We need an elite coach to even have a shot at the title game every few years. Kelly is elite, which is how he got us there in 2012, and I think he'll make another run in the next couple years as well. But a lot of our fans don't understand how hard it is to win at ND, so Kelly gets blasted.

We will not get a better coach than Kelly. Full stop. He's in the same tier as Stoops, Meyer and Saban, but he's handicapped by ND's restrictions. If he leaves, we're f*cked. Understand that, please. Just like Meyer said no thanks before, no proven winner is going to come to South Bend when there are lots of football factories out there that are willing to do whatever it takes to win. So we'll end up taking a flier on an upcoming coach, and when that doesn't work out, we'll be in for another 10-20 years of pain.

Which makes me hate that I grew up a ND fan, because the next 50 years of my CFB life are probably going to suck.

Being a good person is hard, and so is rooting for the good guys.

What is the genesis of this?

I see it get repeated but that doesn't match what I was hearing at the time. For one thing, ND totally lowballed Meyer compared to his Florida offer because they were paying Willingham's severance and from Meyer's POV it looked like ND wanted a contract they could eat. They were about to move onto their fourth coach in 10 years and it made ND look impatient and its expectations unrealistic.

It's been widely reported for years that the deal-breaker for Meyer was ND's refusal to grant him a large # of academic exceptions each year. Your post is the first time I've ever read that ND low-balled Meyer, and I have a very hard time believing it. Cash hasn't been a scarce resource for the University in a long time.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Well the old article I found has Meyer's dad saying the offers from ND and UF were equal so I guess the internet will not back me up on this one.

 

[Emcee77]

Being a good person is hard, and so is rooting for the good guys.

That's well put. It's no fun to root for powerhouses, anyway.

Side note: I decided to start following English Premier League soccer this year, since it is always on TV on weekend mornings when I am up with my daughter. I had to pick a team to root for, and I picked Liverpool, a former powerhouse (5 European championships, 18 English championships) that was knocked off its perch by Manchester United in the 90s and has arguably never really regained its place as a top European club, a flash-in-the-pan great season last year notwithstanding. Liverpool is having a mediocre season this year, and everyone expects me to give up and pick someone else.

Are you kidding me? This is the team I have been training my whole life to root for. Uncanny parallels with ND football.

 

[Old Man Mike]

There is a tiny "academic" issue that some [maybe most] could not know, but that profs knew during my teaching career. That is when the academic "scandal" of grade inflation at many elite colleges became very public to the rest of us "in the profession".

It came out, and sometimes PROUDLY out of the mouths of officials at the Ivy League schools AND STANFORD among others, that merely getting admitted ensured that you not only would graduate but receive essentially free pass grading in your classes [translation: "B"s minimum] just for showing up. The lame excuse given for this grade average handout was that the students had already proved their quality by their pre-admission success, and that their families had already earned the degree because of the steep price they were paying for it.

Allegedly the academic-wide stink that these admissions caused made some of these schools revisit their grade handout policies --- as prospective employers began to question whether their transcripts were worth anything at all [they COULD be, but it was up to the student, and outsiders could not tell if one transcript indicated a dedicated student or a cruiser]. Some employers had to shift analysis almost entirely to the interviews, recommendations, and internships.

The point is: if you're NOT Notre Dame, EVEN if you're an elite academic school [like Stanford], it is not obvious that you are working your butt off in the classroom to the detriment of spending time in the weightroom or the filmroom.

I am not saying that such differences can explain the difference in game readiness between squads, but I am saying that there is an assumption on this board about athletes at elite academic schools [most of which are "elite" because of the reputation of their GRADUATE schools] that is probably in serious error.

 

[wizards8507]

No. We need an elite coach to even have a shot at the title game every few years. Kelly is elite, which is how he got us there in 2012, and I think he'll make another run in the next couple years as well. But a lot of our fans don't understand how hard it is to win at ND, so Kelly gets blasted.

I think it's unreasonable to expect a perennial 7-6 or 8-5 team to ever have a shot at the playoff, let alone a shot every few years. In order for the playoff to be our peak, we need to be a 9-4 or 10-3 team in a "regular" year.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Side note: I decided to start following English Premier League soccer this year, since it is always on TV on weekend mornings when I am up with my daughter.

Funny. I know lots of guys who got into EPL for the same reason.

I am not saying that such differences can explain the difference in game readiness between squads, but I am saying that there is an assumption on this board about athletes at elite academic schools [most of which are "elite" because of the reputation of their GRADUATE schools] that is probably in serious error.

NDLS hands out fliers on heavy card stock that explain its grading policy:

1. Notre Dame Law School has been relatively immune from "grade inflation."
2. Notre Dame Law School's system judges Notre Dame students against a high Notre Dame standard rather than against student performance at other institutions.
3. Notre Dame Law School has no mandated grading curve.
4. Notre Dame Law School does not rank students.

Faculty regard "C" as indicating satisfactory work. Thereefore, a "C" a Notre Dame is considered a respectable grade. This is evidenced by the fact that, although our students enter the first-year class with outstanding undergraduate academic credentials, the median grade-point average for first-year classes is approximately 3.1 each year

Faculty do not hesitate to issue a grade of "D" or "F". Such a grade simply indicates that the student has not done acceptable work according to the Notre Dame standard. Comparisons should not be made with schools that issue such grades infrequently.

Good luck getting a prospective employer to take that seriously.

I think it's unreasonable to expect a perennial 7-6 or 8-5 team to ever have a shot at the playoff, let alone a shot every few years. In order for the playoff to be our peak, we need to be a 9-4 or 10-3 team in a "regular" year.

Kelly went 8-5, 9-4, 12-1, and then had back-to-back years with an injury-ravaged defense. Were ND a football factory, he could have utilized much more aggressive roster-management policies to keep his defense healthy. Instead, we had Carlo Calabrese playing NT at one point during 2013, and our defensive two-deep was literally full of underclassmen this year. This sort of thing never happens at OSU or 'Bama, but it does at ND because our academic and ethical standards prevent us from oversigning, gray-shirting, utilizing JuCos, etc.

 

[GoldenDomer]

My man, I'm totally with you that Longo sucks, but ND students do have very different academic lives. It's not just the going to class or not going to class, it's that they have to actually work out side of class and don't get passes because they're on the sports team.

I can see the SEC players making it to 75% of their classes, but the actual work they have to do is very different I bet.

I'm not disagreeing than ND student-athletes have a rigorous schedule, but I think the view of SEC academics is overblown.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I'm not disagreeing than ND student-athletes have a rigorous schedule, but I think the view of SEC academics is overblown.

Gadsden Times - Google News Archive Search

you're wrong

Chances are, if you play football at the University of Alabama, you're majoring in general studies...

...One general studies course meant writing about football for former Alabama football player Ahmad Childress. For three credits one summer, Childress said, he and five teammates composed an entire football class that only required instructing a football camp for kids in Gulf Shores and writing a four-page essay.

"That was the whole class. I got an A." Childress said. "Yeah, it was a little weird, but sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do in order to stay eligible."

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I think Kelly could be an elite coach if he would get out of his own way. Give up the play calling, get a new strength coach and have open competition at all positions. If he can look in the mirror and make the necessary changes he can be elite. If he doesn't, I think it'll be more of the same next season and we'll be hunting for a new coach for the 2016 season.

 

[IrishinSyria]

So except mediocrity? And I still say ND can compete with anyone but they have to have a ELITE coach to do so. We're miles away from having an elite coach now.

Not only Notre Dame, but literally no problem can compete on an elite level on a year to year basis. I know it looks like Alabama is there now, but it was not that long ago that Florida was the team that looked like they'd be competing for championships every year. Before that is was USC. Before that it was Miami...

Part of it is good coaching, part of it is an investment in the program, and part of it is pure luck. The trick is to keep yourself in that upper tier of teams, and then hope that you get a couple of great classes in a row that bring you home a national championship.

In 1984, the world of football changed. Notre Dame lost one of its key competitive advantages, though it took about a decade for the effects of that to be really felt.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/468/85/case.html

 

[GoldenDomer]

Not only Notre Dame, but literally no problem can compete on an elite level on a year to year basis. I know it looks like Alabama is there now, but it was not that long ago that Florida was the team that looked like they'd be competing for championships every year. Before that is was USC. Before that it was Miami...

Part of it is good coaching, part of it is an investment in the program, and part of it is pure luck. The trick is to keep yourself in that upper tier of teams, and then hope that you get a couple of great classes in a row that bring you home a national championship.

In 1984, the world of football changed. Notre Dame lost one of its key competitive advantages, though it took about a decade for the effects of that to be really felt.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/468/85/case.html

Yeah, you're not gonna be in the picture for 10 years straight, but more than once every 30 years would be nice.

 

[Grahambo]

Which makes me hate that I grew up a ND fan, because the next 50 years of my CFB life are probably going to suck.

Good thing there's more to life then ND football.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'm not disagreeing than ND student-athletes have a rigorous schedule, but I think the view of SEC academics is overblown.

I'd say it actually goes the opposite direction. Either the "no excuses" or "you can get a quality education anywhere" crowd always chimes in and shuts down the conversation, but I think SEC academics are actually much worse than advertised.

Many SEC schools put the absolute minimum emphasis on academics possible by NCAA by-law. It is a priority the same way enrolling at the University is a "priority," it is a hurdle to be overcome in order to maintain eligibility. Because much of college is a joke anyway, it become completely laughable once the administration is on-board with an athlete's sliding by. I know for a fact that Auburn has accepted functionally illiterate athletes and kept them enrolled.

ND's problem, from a college football fan's perspective, is that they want it all: football, faith, prestige. But you can't have it all. The SEC wants to be great at football. The Ivy's want to be great at academics. The smaller Catholic schools want to be great at educating Catholics. But they all know you can't be the best at everything at once because you inevitably have to compromise one to get to the other.

If you are recruiting the absolute best football players, academics and faith/character have to be de-prioritized (see Cam Newton, Johhny Manziel, James, Winston, etc., etc.). At this point ND is willing to compromise everything somewhat, but nothing a lot. They've found the recipe for a lukewarm Catholic school, with a perenial top 25 U.S. News ranking, and an 8-4 football team.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yeah, you're not gonna be in the picture for 10 years straight, but more than once every 30 years would be nice.

I agree with that. I just don't think the way to do it is to change coaches every 5 or so years. Then again, I would have let Weis do 10 years, so maybe there's a good reason I'm not the one making those decisions.

 

[jerboski]

I'll toss in my opinion. Kelly is a good coach, not a great coach. He is held back by some of the standards of ND however a lot of ND fans make excuses for our teams play because of the academic rigor and what not. It certainly plays into the equation but it was mentioned ND has over 100 tutors for the football team and we have a 95 graduation percent so that tells me that the athletes are given all kinds of support and help in the classroom so its not like they are doing it all alone and have to spend 20 hours a week on homework, lets just be real! I also don't subscribe to the "Kelly is the best we can get", ND is still viewed as a great job and one of the most prestigious jobs in college football just because Meyer turned us down for Florida doesn't mean we cant land attractive coaches. Lastly, it is ludicrous to me that we are comparing Meyer and Saban to Kelly. Honestly, what ND fan wouldn't trade Kelly for either right now??? Both of them are elite recruiters and game managers, they also are both control freaks that make sure players are ready to go on game day. I don't buy the we cant compare them because of the schools they coach, bottom line football is football, Kelly has had a top ten class in recruiting for the majority of his stay at ND, we should be better than what we are.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I agree with that. I just don't think the way to do it is to change coaches every 5 or so years. Then again, I would have let Weis do 10 years, so maybe there's a good reason I'm not the one making those decisions.

In hindsight, it's clear Weis is a better offensive coach than Kelly. Weis just didn't perform well at all the other stuff like hiring assistants, recruiting linemen, etc.

 

[MNIrishman]

I'd say it actually goes the opposite direction. Either the "no excuses" or "you can get a quality education anywhere" crowd always chimes in and shuts down the conversation, but I think SEC academics are actually much worse than advertised.

Many SEC schools put the absolute minimum emphasis on academics possible by NCAA by-law. It is a priority the same way enrolling at the University is a "priority," it is a hurdle to be overcome in order to maintain eligibility. Because much of college is a joke anyway, it become completely laughable once the administration is on-board with an athlete's sliding by. I know for a fact that Auburn has accepted functionally illiterate athletes and kept them enrolled.

ND's problem, from a college football fan's perspective, is that they want it all: football, faith, prestige. But you can't have it all. The SEC wants to be great at football. The Ivy's want to be great at academics. The smaller Catholic schools want to be great at educating Catholics. But they all know you can't be the best at everything at once because you inevitably have to compromise one to get to the other.

If you are recruiting the absolute best football players, academics and faith/character have to be de-prioritized (see Cam Newton, Johhny Manziel, James, Winston, etc., etc.). At this point ND is willing to compromise everything somewhat, but nothing a lot. They've found the recipe for a lukewarm Catholic school, with a perenial top 25 U.S. News ranking, and an 8-4 football team.

"Lukewarm" is not giving the foremost Catholic university in the world its due. The University does not care about the US News ranking (if it did, it wouldn't reject so many perfect SATs and valedictorians each year, whose numbers improve US News rankings), and the 8-4 football team is on a solid trajectory to improve, as has been discussed.

 

[Cali_domer]

Bruce Feldman says BK one of coaches he can see making the jump to the NFL. Starts at 13:50 with talk about BK


http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/7/b/47baab3faf1f3669/141216_MTS_Episode_15_new.mp3?c_id=8055500&expiration=1418769029&hwt=2dab11bd61d53f72c28684a220f2ba38


Actually meant to post this in Silly season thread

 

[ulukinatme]

Lol, the proof is in the pudding.

Who is going to get you more fired up and get more out of you?

Obligatory videos:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Ynt6UCzkdcc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3fquDTF09bk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[GoldenDomer]

Obligatory videos:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Ynt6UCzkdcc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3fquDTF09bk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The 60 Minutes they did on the program was ridiculous...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/9WZd6AyDZFs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Obligatory videos:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Ynt6UCzkdcc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3fquDTF09bk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I friend of mine ( Brandon Lilly, google him if you'd like) has spent a lot of time consulting with some pretty big time strength programs, such as, Alabama. He told me his two biggest take a ways from his 2 week stent in Tuscaloosa..

1. Intensity is off the charts

2. Every single one of them is convinced they are going to the NFL and will do absolutely anything to just stay on the team, because they know Saban will over recruit and boot there ass.

He is pretty tight with the Kentucky strength staff. He says there players are soft physically and mentally and are starting to turn the corner.

Alabama, OSU and the old PITT strength coaches ( the Stache years) are/were the best in the biz.