Is it time to scrap the 3-4?

kmoose

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Why would they be running right at him? I don't think moving to a true WILL puts any more pressure on Jaylon than what he is currently under playing Dog. I think Grace is likely better playing behind a more loaded defensive front, so maybe he blossoms behind it?

You run right at him to negate his speed. You also run right at him because he is a true freshman who has to anticipate where the runner is going to go, and how to get around whichever blocker is leading the play to get to where the runner is going to be. The odds say that a guy in his first year is going to anticipate wrong a lot, leaving your back running right past him, and into the secondary.
 

Domer4ever

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You run right at him to negate his speed. You also run right at him because he is a true freshman who has to anticipate where the runner is going to go, and how to get around whichever blocker is leading the play to get to where the runner is going to be. The odds say that a guy in his first year is going to anticipate wrong a lot, leaving your back running right past him, and into the secondary.

Easier said than done with Tuitt, Nix, Day, and Ishaq in front of him. I also think Jaylon is more than capable of holding his own.
 

EddytoNow

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If we're stopping the run and taking away the vertical passing game, aren't we dictating what the other team does? It's a lot harder to dink and dunk down the field, IMO, than pretty much any other way you could choose to move the ball consistently. Especially because your defensive playmakers can (theoretically) stick guys behind the line on screens, jump predictable screen passes for an easy pick-6, or simply force a punt by not allowing large dinks.

If the man coverage was better, we'd see a lot of these things resolved IMO.

That's my point. We are conceding the passing game by allowing entirely too much space. The opponent's receivers are wide open. We don't have anyone within 5 yards of them when they catch the ball. Our man coverage is not good, but it sure appears that is by design. Are we trying to contain rather than contest passes? We are making average quarterbacks look like All-Americans.
 

Domer4ever

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You realize that's basically no different than in a 3-4, right?

How so? The gap positioning is different and you are adding another down lineman instead of a standup backer out wide of the tackle box. There are less running gaps which protects the backers more.
 

kmoose

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I also think Jaylon is more than capable of holding his own.

I'm not saying that he wouldn't get it figured out, but I have seen at least a half dozen times when someone has to tell Jaylon where to line up, when the defensive front adjusts to the formation. That's not a knock on him, because it is typical of true freshman starters. But it also shows that he's not ready to handle EVERYTHING just yet. So, yes, running right at him would put a lot of pressure on him, and he would be bound to get caught out of position a lot.
 

NDWorld247

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How so? The gap positioning is different and you are adding another down lineman instead of a standup backer out wide of the tackle box. There are less running gaps which protects the backers more.

There are some small differences, but essentially it's the same personnel in front of Jaylon. That was my point. And our CAT is usually at the LOS, not out wide.

And run defense is the least of our worries. I'm not convinced moving to a 4-3 would improve that area (or any area for that matter).
 
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Buster Bluth

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How so? The gap positioning is different and you are adding another down lineman instead of a standup backer out wide of the tackle box. There are less running gaps which protects the backers more.

The gap positioning is different every week within the game plan, and then again on any individual play.
 

Kanye West

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Our CalaFox would be too slow for a 4-3 and Grace too inexperienced. Our issue is our middle of our defense. Farley is not playing well and CalaFox are just not good enough. I would like some zone-blitzes, too protect the middle of the field. Quick passes are designed to stop a good pass rush, (See 1985 Miami vs Chicago, or West-Coast offense in general). Thus the Zone-Blitz is needed to protect our linebackers. I want to see Redfield play. But a Freshman can only do so much.
 

Domer4ever

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There are some small differences, but essentially it's the same personnel in front of Jaylon. That was my point. And our CAT is usually at the LOS, not out wide.

And run defense is the least of our worries. I'm not convinced moving to a 4-3 would improve that area (or any area for that matter).

I made the point in relation to teams "running at Jaylon" and exposing him in a 43. I don't think it would happen especially with the big boys in front of him.
 

Domer4ever

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Our CalaFox would be too slow for a 4-3 and Grace too inexperienced. Our issue is our middle of our defense. Farley is not playing well and CalaFox are just not good enough. I would like some zone-blitzes, too protect the middle of the field. Quick passes are designed to stop a good pass rush, (See 1985 Miami vs Chicago, or West-Coast offense in general). Thus the Zone-Blitz is needed to protect our linebackers. I want to see Redfield play. But a Freshman can only do so much.

Well, Calafox could be eliminated all together in a 43 if they wanted to run Shembo at the SAM LB.
 

kmoose

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I made the point in relation to teams "running at Jaylon" and exposing him in a 43. I don't think it would happen especially with the big boys in front of him.

Ok. So you have your front 4 focus on protecting your freshman OLB. Now you are slowing down your pass rush, because they have to shut down running lanes first. Our secondary is going to get torched, with a slow pass rush.
 

Wild Bill

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I got to disagree with the 4-3. Can they run it sure, but i think itd be less successful than what they are doing now. The things that ND isnt doing now that has led to missed plays is basics.

1. Tackling
2. Being in the right spot
3. Presnap reads

Your list reminds me of someone:
Danny-Spond-Retire.jpg
 

NDWorld247

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I made the point in relation to teams "running at Jaylon" and exposing him in a 43. I don't think it would happen especially with the big boys in front of him.

I'm not convinced he's being exposed in the run game now, so, again, what's the difference?

Well, Calafox could be eliminated all together in a 43 if they wanted to run Shembo at the SAM LB.

And then Shembo would be relied on more in pass coverage rather than utilize his skills as a pass rusher. We can do this all night...I'm just going to agree to disagree though.

On a related note, I would love to see a breakdown of how much 4-3 we currently run vs. the 3-4. Maybe I'll go through each game tomorrow and try to break it down. My guess is we are in a 4-3 about 25% of the time anyway.
 

Irishman77

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I understand everyone ribbing on Farley, but what about Tuitt? If he is still injured, let him rest and heal. Give someone else the opportunity to shine. Jones or Roshell can match tuitt s efforts thus far. I hope he is Okay!
 

Domer4ever

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Ok. So you have your front 4 focus on protecting your freshman OLB. Now you are slowing down your pass rush, because they have to shut down running lanes first. Our secondary is going to get torched, with a slow pass rush.

The focus would not be on protecting the freshman, it's just something that comes with running a four man front. More big bodies filling gaps at the point of attack equals more protection for the LB's to flow more freely unabated to the ball. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
 

Domer4ever

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I'm not convinced he's being exposed in the run game now, so, again, what's the difference?



And then Shembo would be relied on more in pass coverage rather than utilize his skills as a pass rusher. We can do this all night...I'm just going to agree to disagree though.

On a related note, I would love to see a breakdown of how much 4-3 we currently run vs. the 3-4. Maybe I'll go through each game tomorrow and try to break it down. My guess is we are in a 4-3 about 25% of the time anyway.

Yeah I'm not saying he is being exposed, kmoose is concerned teams will target running at him in a 43, and I'm saying he won't. Nothing more to read into it.

On Shembo, I do prefer him rushing the passer, but I could also see them using him like Denver uses Vaughn Miller from the LB position. Might not be a bad option if you want to replace Calafox

I would love to see that breakdown too. You are probably about right on that percentage. I can really only remember two sacks on the season with one of those being on a beautiful stunt from a 43 with Ishaq getting the sack against Michigan. .
 

TheTurningPoint

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Why did Shembo get moved from Dog to Cat?
Why play to Shembos weaknesses in a 4-3? Are you going to make him a DE? Too small. Weakside olb? Id rather have Fox and Carlo in coverage than Shembo. Can you see Shembo trying to run with Rbs and TEs?

People are complaining about the lack of "speed" on defense. 4-3 ND would get even slower to the ball. Nix takes on a double team on abt 70% of the snaps. Getting the LBs to scrape consistently and shoot the right gaps is going to be easier than changing 30 guys responsibilities.

ND runs 4 down DL in their Nickel and Dime sets and that has been played a lot this year bc they have the 3rd guy in Luke and flexibility with Collinsworth and Shumate. So there is your 4 man line...hows that working out?

Changing to a 4-3 just doesnt happen overnight and the team is built on a 3-4. ND doesnt have too many guys that would even fit a 4-3 scheme together. No one compliments each other in a 4-3. Its poses more liabilities than what they have now
 

Domer4ever

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Why did Shembo get moved from Dog to Cat?
Why play to Shembos weaknesses in a 4-3? Are you going to make him a DE? Too small. Weakside olb? Id rather have Fox and Carlo in coverage than Shembo. Can you see Shembo trying to run with Rbs and TEs?

People are complaining about the lack of "speed" on defense. 4-3 ND would get even slower to the ball. Nix takes on a double team on abt 70% of the snaps. Getting the LBs to scrape consistently and shoot the right gaps is going to be easier than changing 30 guys responsibilities.

ND runs 4 down DL in their Nickel and Dime sets and that has been played a lot this year bc they have the 3rd guy in Luke and flexibility with Collinsworth and Shumate. So there is your 4 man line...hows that working out?

Changing to a 4-3 just doesnt happen overnight and the team is built on a 3-4. ND doesnt have too many guys that would even fit a 4-3 scheme together. No one compliments each other in a 4-3. Its poses more liabilities than what they have now

Shembo was moved because he is the best pure pass rusher on the team and was being wasted playing the Dog. 6'1"/260 is plenty big to be a DE in a 43 (especially in a rotation), and I think that is where he fits in best. Let him put his hand in the dirt and wreak havoc. It's possible he could play some SAM LB in a 43 like LAX suggested where you let him get after it in pass rushing situations, but I think he's just a better fit at DE.

I don't think moving to a 43 creates a lack of speed to the ball at all. How do you figure that? The fourth down lineman would keep guys like Grace and Jaylon cleaner to flow to the football because it covers more gap responsibility at the point of attack. It also would allow the team to have their best pass rushers on the field at the same time. There is enough natural talent and ability on the roster to get after the QB without having to rely on some exotic blitz scheme that is not getting the job done, creating mismatches, and exposing a porous secondary. Getting a better pass rush from the front four would allow the safety's to stay back more in coverage and allow you to play some zone schemes with the LB's thus improving the horrendous play on the back end of the defense. It's not a difficult scheme to teach and learn and would simplify things for a lot of young guys out there who are just clearly thinking too much and not playing football.

ND does not always run a four man line when they go nickel and dime. They mix it up and will try to zone blitz a linebacker off a three down lineman front, which has not worked too well. I have seen more good than bad this year when they do go with a four man front including Bennett Jackson's INT touchdown against Purdue.

As far as changing to a 43 at this point, I don't think it would be as difficult as some make it out to be being that they do play some 43 already and the players are familiar with the principle's involved with it. I remember two years ago, Bill Belichick who is one of the great innovators of the 34 defense, switched to a 43 mid-season because his scheme was floundering much like ND's is now and he is still running a 43 today. So yeah, you can make changes during the season and I think ND has the personnel to make a successful transition that would alleviate a lot of what is ailing them currently.
 
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ulukinatme

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If we don't land a big NG that can eat up two blockers, we might as well move to 4-3 now. 3-4 only works if your NG is annoying enough to manhandle one guy and forces the offense to commit two blockers. It seems like we're targeting an awful lot of CATs/DE hybrids right now, so maybe the coaches have acknowledged the fact we don't have a new Nix lined up.
 

pkt77242

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If we don't land a big NG that can eat up two blockers, we might as well move to 4-3 now. 3-4 only works if your NG is annoying enough to manhandle one guy and forces the offense to commit two blockers. It seems like we're targeting an awful lot of CATs/DE hybrids right now, so maybe the coaches have acknowledged the fact we don't have a new Nix lined up.

Kelly was running a 3-4 before Nix was playing ( we had Ian Williams and Cwynar) so I doubt the lack of an elite NG next year is what would make us change. Now the lack of ILBs could become a problem at some point though. I would also point out that most DCs at the College level only run a 3-4 or a 4-3. Just like pro style OCs don't run the spread option or vice versa.
 

NDWorld247

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Kelly was running a 3-4 before Nix was playing ( we had Ian Williams and Cwynar) so I doubt the lack of an elite NG next year is what would make us change. Now the lack of ILBs could become a problem at some point though. I would also point out that most DCs at the College level only run a 3-4 or a 4-3. Just like pro style OCs don't run the spread option or vice versa.

I think teams that run a 4-3 stick with the 4-3, but teams that run a 3-4 will mix it up with a 4-3 alignment at times. Again, the 3-4 allows for more flexibility and transitioning from a 3-man front to a 4-man front is a lot easier than the other way around, which is one reason why I've become a big fan of the 3-4.
 

pkt77242

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I think teams that run a 4-3 stick with the 4-3, but teams that run a 3-4 will mix it up with a 4-3 alignment at times. Again, the 3-4 allows for more flexibility and transitioning from a 3-man front to a 4-man front is a lot easier than the other way around, which is one reason why I've become a big fan of the 3-4.

While I agree that a 3-4 will sometimes line up in a 4 man front, that is not the same thing as playing a 4-3 defense. Some times we are just showing a different look with the players responsibilities being the same. Also many times when we go to a 4 man front we are in Nickel or Dime packages so that wouldn't count as playing a 4-3 defense either. Do I think that it is possible that we end up playing a true 4-3 defense next year? Yes but it is unlikely as pretty much all that Diaco has coached is the 3-4. Now if Diaco should leave then that is a different story.
 

dublinirish

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When you think about it if we are playing 4-3 then Fox or Carlo should be nowhere near the field. The reason they are there is to be stout against the run and be able to take on interior OL. If we have 4 down linemen we dont need them on the field I would rather have Councell and Jaylon on there alongside Grace in the middle.
 

NDdomer2

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Kelly was running a 3-4 before Nix was playing ( we had Ian Williams and Cwynar) so I doubt the lack of an elite NG next year is what would make us change. Now the lack of ILBs could become a problem at some point though. I would also point out that most DCs at the College level only run a 3-4 or a 4-3. Just like pro style OCs don't run the spread option or vice versa.

Ian Williams was a starter in the nfl as of this week (unfortunate for Ian, praying for him) and Cwynar was very serviceable. Those two would still be in the 2 deep to this day.
 

ulukinatme

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Ian Williams was a starter in the nfl as of this week (unfortunate for Ian, praying for him) and Cwynar was very serviceable. Those two would still be in the 2 deep to this day.

I still don't think we have a viable option, or at least any depth whatsoever, at NG for next year. If Kona spells Nix, both are gone next year.
 

NDdomer2

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I still don't think we have a viable option, or at least any depth whatsoever, at NG for next year. If Kona spells Nix, both are gone next year.

I totally agree I was trying to point out to pkt that we did have good nt's when kelly arrived allowing him to run the 3-4 then as well.

What a blessing it would be if Dickerson or the Arkansas walk-on whose name has slipped me were able to step in and be productive in the middle next year. (I am not saying this is likely or anything just how perfect it would be).

I think we will be find on the edges.
 

pkt77242

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Ian Williams was a starter in the nfl as of this week (unfortunate for Ian, praying for him) and Cwynar was very serviceable. Those two would still be in the 2 deep to this day.

Actually you proved my point. We don't have to have an elite NG to run the 3-4. Williams was an UDFA and Cwynar chose not to come back for a 5th year. I don't see any reason that Day couldn't be as good as Williams and if Springman is healthy I think he will be serviceable.
 
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