Immigration

BuaConstrictor

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Blazers46

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ab2cmiller said:
I get the argument that illegals flooded our country and came in with no review (in many cases) and thus don't deserve a review on the way out. It's an emotional argument and I get it.

However, the reason that their should be a review/court cases is not to protect the rights of the illegals, it's to protect the rights of those who are here lawfully. There will be people who get wrongfully swept up in these deportation cases. Do we just deport everyone who we think is an illegal and accept that there will be some innocent people who were wrongly deported?

I still stand by the fact that Abrego Garcia did receive due process and should've been deported. That was the decision supported by two immigration judges. Another immigration judge simply said he couldn't be deported to El Salvador. He was wrongly deported to that country. I'd say we retrieve him from El Salvador and immediately deport him to some other Central American country that will take him.
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How do we retrieve him?
 
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ab2cmiller

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Blazers46 said:
How do we retrieve him?
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Obviously we can't MAKE El Salvador give him back. But I think most reasonable people believe that IF we wanted him back, it wouldn't take much pressure from the US to make it happen.

This is really just an almost insignificant part of my argument. I don't really have any desire to debate it because it really distracts from the real issues.
 
RDU Irish

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ab2cmiller said:
I get the argument that illegals flooded our country and came in with no review (in many cases) and thus don't deserve a review on the way out. It's an emotional argument and I get it.

However, the reason that their should be a review/court cases is not to protect the rights of the illegals, it's to protect the rights of those who are here lawfully. There will be people who get wrongfully swept up in these deportation cases. Do we just deport everyone who we think is an illegal and accept that there will be some innocent people who were wrongly deported?

I still stand by the fact that Abrego Garcia did receive due process and should've been deported. That was the decision supported by two immigration judges. Another immigration judge simply said he couldn't be deported to El Salvador. He was wrongly deported to that country. I'd say we retrieve him from El Salvador and immediately deport him to some other Central American country that will take him.
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It is not emotional, it is practical. You don't fight a flood with a teaspoon. Opposition plays for keeps - failure to respond with equal or greater force is signing up for failure.

I say we fuck up all the deportations on purpose so the remaining folks are highly motivated to self deport. Maybe we populate Heard and McDonald Islands so we can have someone to tariff.
 
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ab2cmiller

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RDU Irish said:
It is not emotional, it is practical. You don't fight a flood with a teaspoon. Opposition plays for keeps - failure to respond with equal or greater force is signing up for failure.

I say we fuck up all the deportations on purpose so the remaining folks are highly motivated to self deport. Maybe we populate Heard and McDonald Islands so we can have someone to tariff.
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Sounds emotional
 
TorontoGold

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RDU Irish said:
It is not emotional, it is practical. You don't fight a flood with a teaspoon. Opposition plays for keeps - failure to respond with equal or greater force is signing up for failure.

I say we fuck up all the deportations on purpose so the remaining folks are highly motivated to self deport. Maybe we populate Heard and McDonald Islands so we can have someone to tariff.
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lmao no shot the guy who says everyone is a war monger wants to purposely fuck up deportations on actual citizens to scare people into self deporting.

This would be a really popular policy, I'm sure you could get tons of support!
 
Irish#1

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ab2cmiller said:
I get the argument that illegals flooded our country and came in with no review (in many cases) and thus don't deserve a review on the way out. It's an emotional argument and I get it.

However, the reason that their should be a review/court cases is not to protect the rights of the illegals, it's to protect the rights of those who are here lawfully. There will be people who get wrongfully swept up in these deportation cases. Do we just deport everyone who we think is an illegal and accept that there will be some innocent people who were wrongly deported?

I still stand by the fact that Abrego Garcia did receive due process and should've been deported. That was the decision supported by two immigration judges. Another immigration judge simply said he couldn't be deported to El Salvador. He was wrongly deported to that country. I'd say we retrieve him from El Salvador and immediately deport him to some other Central American country that will take him.
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If they are here illegally and have committed a crime, I see no reason they should go through the deportation process. Have the rest go through the process. Of course going through the process will results in one or both of these things happening. The lefties will be saying the process wasn't fair or it was rushed and this will create a backlog where they will claim Trump failed to get rid of the illegals like he promised.
 
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Irish#1 said:
If they are here illegally and have committed a crime, I see no reason they should go through the deportation process. Have the rest go through the process. Of course going through the process will results in one or both of these things happening. The lefties will be saying the process wasn't fair or it was rushed and this will create a backlog where they will claim Trump failed to get rid of the illegals like he promised.
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How do you prove that they're here illegally or have committed a crime without due process tho? That's the argument that's being made.
 
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ab2cmiller

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Irish#1 said:
If they are here illegally and have committed a crime, I see no reason they should go through the deportation process. Have the rest go through the process. Of course going through the process will results in one or both of these things happening. The lefties will be saying the process wasn't fair or it was rushed and this will create a backlog where they will claim Trump failed to get rid of the illegals like he promised.
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ColoradoIrish said:
How do you prove that they're here illegally or have committed a crime without due process tho? That's the argument that's being made.
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While there are other concerns, my main concern is that there would be someone that the Fed's nab that they think is here illegally and they deport someone who is here legally by mistake. If there is no due process, there is no opportunity to prove that.

Some people will argue that they are OK with some level of incorrect deportations if it means cleaning things up and just say "sucks to be you" for the person that got wrongly deported.

I'm willing to slow things down to make sure that "wrong" deportations are virtually zero. With that said, it would seem like ramping up staffing to ensure that court cases and hearings are handled expeditiously would seem like a good thing.

I understand the concern of those who want things cleaned up before a Dem President gets back in office and basically destroys it all.
 
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ColoradoIrish

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ab2cmiller said:
While there are other concerns, my main concern is that there would be someone that the Fed's nab that they think is here illegally and they deport someone who is here legally by mistake. If there is no due process, there is no opportunity to prove that.

Some people will argue that they are OK with some level of incorrect deportations if it means cleaning things up and just say "sucks to be you" for the person that got wrongly deported.

I'm willing to slow things down to make sure that "wrong" deportations are virtually zero. With that said, it would seem like ramping up staffing to ensure that court cases and hearings are handled expeditiously would seem like a good thing.

I understand the concern of those who want things cleaned up before a Dem President gets back in office and basically destroys it all.
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A judge in Colorado just made a ruling regarding that. The government has been arguing that 24 hours is enough notice to allow a person to to challenge the deportation. And the judge ruled that they have to allow 21 days. I don't care at all that we're deporting people here illegally my issue is and has always been how it's been executed. Arresting people and then moving them states away does not allow for proper due process. I think it's a very real concern that citizens could be accidentally deported based on how this has been handled and then throw in the fact that the government doesn't care if they made a mistake and will not take any steps to return people that have wrongly deported adds a whole other layer to it. I can't speak for others but that's my whole issue with it
 
BuaConstrictor

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ab2cmiller said:
With that said, it would seem like ramping up staffing to ensure that court cases and hearings are handled expeditiously would seem like a good thing
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Would be a real shame if the sitting POTUS had submarined a border bill that would have done just that....
 
BuaConstrictor

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ColoradoIrish said:
The government has been arguing that 24 hours is enough notice to allow a person to to challenge the deportation. And the judge ruled that they have to allow 21 days. I don't care at all that we're deporting people here illegally my issue is and has always been how it's been executed. Arresting people and then moving them states away does not allow for proper due process
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How about the government tanking programs that allow for children to have counsel?


gothamist.com

4-year-old migrant girl, other kids go to court in NYC with no lawyer: 'The cruelty is apparent'

The Trump administration cut funding for lawyers aiding unaccompanied minors in court.
gothamist.com gothamist.com

"The Trump administration on March 21 terminated part of a $200 million contract that funds attorneys and other legal services for unaccompanied children, who arrived in the United States without parents or legal guardians. While that action is being challenged in court, immigrant advocates say the impact is already being felt, as lawyer groups pull back on services – leaving some children on their own."
 
Blazers46

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ab2cmiller said:
Obviously we can't MAKE El Salvador give him back. But I think most reasonable people believe that IF we wanted him back, it wouldn't take much pressure from the US to make it happen.

This is really just an almost insignificant part of my argument. I don't really have any desire to debate it because it really distracts from the real issues.
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I guess my answer is why try to get him back? We pressure them by what means? Give them a sack of cash or whatever? I’m not sure why the US should be responsible for getting him back just to deport him somewhere else. If they messed, oops. Just my opinion.
 
BuaConstrictor

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Blazers46 said:
I guess my answer is why try to get him back? We pressure them by what means? Give them a sack of cash or whatever? I’m not sure why the US should be responsible for getting him back just to deport him somewhere else
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Because someone who is not convicted of a crime should not rot in any prison, let alone CECOT. He hasn't been convicted of a crime in the US. He hasn't been convicted of one in El Salvador, thus he should not be imprisoned.

The US has the responsibility to get him back because we made the mistake to begin with that landed him in a foreign prison.

This isn't that complicated.

You bring him back, put him through the process, and if he's eligible for deportation, you deport him....that process does not end with him in a foreign prison and him and his family are free to live their life somewhere else. People keep ignoring the him being in prison portion of things, which is pretty fucking important.
 
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Irish#1

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ColoradoIrish said:
Arrests don't equal convictions we both know that come on now.
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Come on now. Police records will show convictions. There are also court records that can be searched.

Google is your friend.
Yes, police records generally show convictions. A criminal record, which is a compilation of your interactions with law enforcement, includes arrests, convictions, and other relevant information. If you have been arrested and convicted of a crime, that information will typically be reflected in your criminal record.
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Blazers46

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Irish#1 said:
Come on now. Police records will show convictions. There are also court records that can be searched.

Google is your friend.
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It’s pretty basic and it’s pretty easy. Some jurisdictions have gotten so lazy that they just put everything online and you can search for what you want. They could also pull their FBI rap sheet and that would get a nationwide search. Although those are not as accurate as local agency record records.
 
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