Immigration

drayer54

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I just hope they are so understanding when I live in a gun-control free sanctuary city.
 

Legacy

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The number of migrant children in Texas shelters spiked again, reaching a new high under Trump (Texas Tribune)

Zlgdbe-UNACCOMPANIED%20MIGRANT%20CHILDREN_1532428891318.PNG_12527561_ver1.0_640_360.jpg
 

NorthDakota

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Irish YJ

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Didn't ya hear YJ, illegal immigrants are less likely to be criminals than your average red-blooded American. These anecdotes are few and far between!

I live a couple miles from a small town with one of the highest densities (maybe the highest) of legal refugees in the US. Good amount of illegals mixed in. I've volunteered there over the years and love some of the good news stories there. That said, crime is horrible in that area, much much worse than my mixed race neighborhood of red blooded Americans. The majority of crime in my neighborhood (thefts, break ins, robbery, etc.) trace back to that area. Constant sirens heading that way. And that's with a lot of crime going unreported. And the mayor of the town goes way out of his way to not provide stats on crime.

They can spin it however they want. Crime and assimilation are huge issues, even when people and gov go out of the way to assist.
 

Legacy

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With immigration, Trump is trying to effect immigration policy with legal challenges, executive orders, etc. - just like Obama did. And running into the same obstacles, including the Flores Agreement. Just like Obama did.

How familiar do these two articles from Vox over three years apart sound?

Why is the Obama Administration still fighting to keep immigrant families behind bars? (Vox, July 29, 2015)

It’s been over a year since the administration started detaining hundreds of families crossing into Texas from Central America. And that year has been marked by failure after failure.
The original plan was to hear families' asylum cases quickly, and deport them as soon as possible; that failed once some detainees were able to meet with lawyers and get their asylum claims upheld. Then the
That plan fell through earlier this year, after a court ruling, and then a new administration policy, accepted that mothers and children who'd passed their initial interviews didn't need to be kept behind bars.
Now the administration's family detention experiment is at risk of being outlawed entirely. Over the weekend, a federal judge ruled that the family detention system violates a 20-year-old policy that sets high standards for detained immigrant children; this week, judges started ruling that detained families should be released immediately.
The administration has the opportunity to keep fighting the courts and preserve its ability to keep immigrant families behind bars. But why would it want to?

A federal judge has ruled that family detention violates the government's own rules for keeping immigrant children
There are strict legal standards for when and how the government could legally keep children in immigration detention. Those were set in 1996, when the government settled a lawsuit filed by advocacy groups, an event known the Flores settlement. Under the terms of the Flores settlement, the government has to hold children in the least restrictive conditions possible. That generally means "unsecured" facilities (in other words, places that run more like shelters than prisons) that are licensed for taking care of children.

Immigrant rights advocates invoked the Flores settlement to challenge the current detentions. The government argued that key parts of Flores didn't apply because the children were being detained with their parents. But on Friday, after months of negotiation, federal Judge Dolly Gee sided with the advocates. She ruled that the government was holding children in secured, prison-like, unlicensed facilities, and that violated the 1996 agreement.

Gee's ruling was harsh. She called it "astonishing" and "shocking" that 20 years after the Flores agreement, the government still hadn't figured out how to meet its own standards for humane treatment of children.

The government has a week to demonstrate that the changes Gee demanded shouldn't go into effect — and it could choose to appeal the ruling to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. But in the meantime, Judge Gee's ruling is already changing how judges look at cases of mothers in detention. This week, judges have been allowing detained mothers to get released immediately while they're waiting for the courts to process their cases.

The Obama administration ended immigrant family detention in 2009 — and brought it back in 2014
The irony is that it's the Obama administration itself that ended the last experiment in detaining immigrant families: the Hutto Residential Center in Texas — a 512-bed former jail that the Bush administration opened in 2006. The American Civil Liberties Union sued Immigration and Customs Enforcement the year after the facility opened, saying that it didn't meet the terms of the government's Flores settlement. A 2007 report from advocacy groups Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service and the Women's Refugee Commission claimed that Hutto was essentially still being run like a prison, with locked doors and very tight schedules. Children weren't getting enough to eat, and had one hour of schooling a day. And guards separated kids (some as young as 6) from their parents as a way of disciplining them.

It was the Obama administration that actually stopped detaining families at the Hutto facility, in 2009 — which advocates took as an admission that "there's no way to detain families humanely." But in 2014, in the midst of a panic over the "surge" of Central American children and families into the US, the administration reversed course. They started holding hundreds of families in a makeshift facility in New Mexico, and built a pair of permanent family detention centers. Right now, more than 3,000 immigrant mothers and children are in detention.

"I didn't feel like I was alive in that place"
In the words of former American Immigration Lawyers Association head Laura Lichter, who started representing detained families pro bono in August, family detention was a "shitshow" from the very beginning. Judges wouldn't let lawyers speak during hearings, and guards strictly limited the access that lawyers got to their clients outside of the courtroom — making it hard for lawyers to put together the information that would prove families qualified for asylum. Plenty of families simply got deported without ever seeing a lawyer.

But once lawyers began to get access and help clients build cases for asylum, families started winning the early stages of their court cases, or appealing them after a loss — but were often still kept in detention while those cases were resolved. And conditions in detention were terrible.

The New York Times Magazine reported in February:

The detainees reported sleeping eight to a room, in violation of the Flores settlement, with little exercise or stimulation for the children. Many were under the age of 6 and had been raised on a diet of tortillas, rice and chicken bits. In Artesia, the institutional cafeteria foods were as unfamiliar as the penal atmosphere, and to their parents’ horror, many of the children refused to eat. "Gaunt kids, moms crying, they’re losing hair, up all night," an attorney named Maria Andrade recalled. Another, Lisa Johnson-Firth, said: "I saw children who were malnourished and were not adapting. One 7-year-old just lay in his mother’s arms while she bottle-fed him." Mary O’Leary, who made three trips to Artesia last fall, said: "I was trying to talk to one client about her case, and just a few feet away at another table there was this lady with a toddler between 2 and 4 years old, just lying limp. This was a sick kid, and just with this horrible racking cough."
Once the government replaced its temporary detention centers with permanent ones, conditions improved slightly. But advocates continued to point out that the government was detaining children with serious health conditions. A letter sent to DHS by House Democrats last month said that:

we have learned of the detention of children with intellectual disabilities, a child with brain cancer, a mother with a congenital heart disorder, a 14-day-old baby, and a 12-year-old child who has not eaten solid food for two months, among many others. Recently, we learned of a three-year-old child at the Berks County Residential Center who was throwing up for three days and was apparently offered water as a form of medical treatment. It was only after the child began throwing up blood on the fourth day that the facility finally transferred her to a hospital.

A child psychiatrist who had interviewed children at the Karnes facility, the House Democrats' letter said, concluded they were "facing some of the most adverse childhood conditions of any children I have ever interviewed or evaluated."

Detention was taking its toll on parents too. One mother from Honduras attempted to kill herself in June by cutting herself with a broken ID badge. She later told a reporter, "I didn't feel alive in that place." The government deported her and her son after the suicide attempt.

The government's justifications for family detention keep falling apart
Are these really the "least restrictive conditions possible" for the children in detention, as the Flores settlement requires? Advocates have been skeptical for a long time. That's why they filed the lawsuit on which Judge Gee just ruled. And so have the courts.

Initially, the government justified opening its detention facilities by saying that Central Americans wouldn't want to come to the US to begin with if they knew they would be detained and possibly deported when they arrived. But in fall 2014, a judge ruled that "deterring future immigration" wasn't a good enough reason to keep a family in detention who's already here — if the government wanted to keep a family in detention while their case was processed, it needed to demonstrate that that particular family needed to be there.

So the government started saying that if a particular family in detention got released, they would try to escape. But last month, they quietly dropped that objection as well. While negotiating the current court case with advocates and Judge Gee, they put out a memo saying that families would be released once they'd passed the initial stage of their asylum applications. But that wasn't enough for advocates, or for the courts.

Meanwhile, the entire reason the government started detaining families last year to begin with — the "border surge" — isn't really an issue anymore, for reasons that have very little to do with how families in the US are being treated. So the government is essentially fighting for the flexibility to detain immigrant families in case something like this happens in the future.

How badly does the Obama administration need to save face?
The administration is also trying to save face. In summer 2014, it responded to the political crisis of the "border surge" by ramping up immigration enforcement. In November 2014, it issued sweeping executive actions on immigration that would have allowed up to 5 million of the nation's current unauthorized immigrants to apply for deferred action — protection from deportation — and work permits. Fast-forward to summer 2015, and both those initiatives are on the ropes.

The centerpiece of Obama's executive actions — and the program he was hoping to hang his immigration legacy on — was the expansion of deferred action. But that's been stalled in the courts since February. It's unlikely that expanded deferred action programs are going to go into effect anytime soon, and the government has quietly stopped preparing to implement them.

Now, with last week's decision, the administration's biggest second-term initiative on border security is also endangered. Judge Gee's ruling doesn't straight-up say that it's impossible to detain immigrant families humanely, but it certainly tells the administration that to do it humanely they'd need to start from scratch. The administration has two options: keep fighting for family detention in court, or admit that the experiment has failed for a second time. The question is whether their desire to avoid outright defeat is strong enough that they'll keep fighting to preserve a policy everyone but them appears to believe is inhumane.
Flores Agreement: Trump's Executive Order might run afoul of a 1997 court ruling

(Vox, June 20, 2018)

The Flores settlement requires the federal government to do two things: to place children with a close relative or family friend “without unnecessary delay,” rather than keeping them in custody; and to keep immigrant children who are in custody in the “least restrictive conditions” possible.

Republicans in Congress have proposed legislation that would overrule Flores and allow children to be kept with their parents in Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) custody while they are put through criminal prosecution and deportation proceedings — which many migrant families fight by claiming asylum in the US, a process that can stretch out for months or years.

Trump can’t overrule the Flores settlement with the stroke of a pen. But getting rid of the court agreement has been in his administration’s sights for months. While Republicans frame Flores as the obstacle to keeping families together, many of the people outraged over family separation might not be too happy with a world without Flores, either.

The Flores settlement dates back to mistreatment of unaccompanied minors in the 1980s
The Flores settlement now at the center of the family separation crisis has a 30-year history. In the 1980s, several lawsuits were filed over the treatment of unaccompanied minors who were in the care of the US government. One was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union in 1985 on behalf of Jenny Lisette Flores, a 15-year-old from El Salvador. She had fled her home country to find an aunt who was living in the United States, but she was detained by federal authorities at the US border.

Flores and other minors in federal custody sometimes had to share sleeping quarters and bathrooms with unrelated adult men and women. Flores was strip-searched regularly, and she was told she could only be released to her parents, not her aunt. The ACLU asserted in its lawsuit that Flores and other unaccompanied children had a constitutional right to be released to “responsible” adults, as the Marquette Law Review documented in a review of the Flores settlement’s history.

The case went through several federal courts before reaching the Supreme Court in 1993, and the high court mostly sided with the government. But the real consequence was a consent decree agreed to by the Clinton administration and the plaintiffs in the litigation in 1997. The decree, known as the Flores settlement, set standards for unaccompanied minors who were in the custody of federal authorities.

The agreement required that children be released as soon as possible to either their parents, a legal guardian, another relative, or a vetted entity willing to take legal custody of the child. According to a summary from the Congressional Research Service, the order also required those minors who would be kept in federal custody be placed in the least restrictive conditions possible and be provided with some basic necessities, like food and water, access to medical treatment, access to running water, and that they be separated from adults to whom they had no relation.

But over the years, immigration authorities were not fully complying with the Flores settlement. Congress passed laws in the 2000s that would eventually require the Department of Homeland Security put unaccompanied children in the care of the Office of Refugee Resettlement, within the Health and Human Services Department.

Under current Flores rules, children “accompanied” by parents have to be released within 20 days
Over the past couple of decades, the principles undergirding Flores evolved into specific rules about exactly how long and under what conditions children can be held. But they generally applied only to children who had entered the US as unaccompanied minors — not those who arrived with their parents.

In 2014, however, the Obama administration attempted to tamp down the number of Central American families seeking asylum in the US by keeping families in detention and processing and deporting them as quickly as possible.

Immigration advocates challenged the policy of family detention under Flores. And judges agreed with them — in large part because it said the Obama administration was out of bounds in detaining migrant families for the purpose of “deterrence.” (As NBC’s Benjy Sarlin has pointed out, that’s why certain Trump administration officials have been careful not to say that family separation is a deterrent, or even a policy, now.)

Ultimately, the Ninth Circuit ruled that the Flores settlement covered not just unaccompanied alien children but “accompanied” ones as well. It set a general standard that the government couldn’t hold them in custody for more than 20 days.

The Ninth Circuit stopped short of saying that parents could be released under Flores. But the federal government hasn’t responded to Flores by keeping families together for a few weeks and then splitting them apart.

Instead, it’s made a practice, for the most part, of releasing the whole family after 20 days. Since the current family detention facilities — two in Texas created under Obama, and an older one on Pennsylvania — are mostly full, they don’t have a ton of space to detain families anyway.

This is one example of what the Trump administration calls “catch and release.”

The Trump administration has always seen ending Flores as a “solution”
To the administration, the extra legal protections against indefinite detention of asylum seekers, and much stricter protections under the Flores settlement against indefinite detention of children and families, are nothing but legal “loopholes.” It would prefer to be able to detain all immigrants who enter the US without papers until their cases are resolved (and, preferably, resolve those cases as quickly as possible with deportation orders).

Keeping families together in immigration detention really would suit the government’s interests. It’s more expensive to keep parents in detention while children are under HHS care (or placed with sponsors or fosters) than to keep both in one detention facility. And legally, the government would be allowed to treat the family as only one case, with one shot to enter the US, rather than as two separate cases as parent and child.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions’s efforts to change asylum policy are intended to keep many immigrants fleeing gang violence from passing their initial asylum screenings — thus allowing the government to deport the whole family together quickly rather than allowing the child to enter the US to pursue a full court case. (However, the implementation of Sessions’s changes, at least for the moment, doesn’t appear to be as radical as was initially feared.)

The question is how to do it.

In theory, Flores could be superseded at any time by DHS regulations — it wasn’t supposed to be a de facto law, just a framework to keep in place while the government came up with permanent rules to ensure migrant kids were adequately protected. (Of course, what counted as “adequately” would be up to the court.) Or Congress could pass a bill that made it clear that children are allowed to be kept in Immigration and Customs Enforcement facilities just like adults are, wiping away the Flores settlement.

At first, Trump’s DHS was reportedly considering trying to go the regulatory route.

According to the Washington Post (in an April article), the proposed regulations would codify the government’s ability to separate families, but would also open the door to longer stays for families detained together:

The proposal also attempts to address a restriction on how long migrant children and their parents can be held at the family residential facilities. Judges have ruled that their stays must be limited to 20 days or less, in part because the centers are not state-licensed.

The proposed regulations would allow federal licensing of such facilities, which could open the door for longer stays. The draft says the administration currently holds families for an average of 14 days and is examining cost estimates that would expand that to an average of 45 days.

But issuing regulations is a months-long process, and President Trump doesn’t have time for these things. Instead, he plunged ahead with the “zero tolerance” prosecution policy, making the separation of families a widespread occurrence — and prompting a groundswell of opposition that appears to be getting stronger by the day.

Getting rid of Flores means indefinite family detention
It’s not at all clear that Trump can, legally, issue an executive order that would override the Flores settlement. That’s why analysts are assuming that any order Trump issues to keep families together in DHS custody will be challenged by a lawsuit and may get thwarted.

If DHS somehow manages to craft an executive order that evades that issue, or if Congress passes any of the suite of Republican bills that purport to end family separation by expanding family detention, it will mean one of two things.

Either the Trump administration will start keeping families in detention for as long as it takes to fully adjudicate their asylum cases — which can take months or years — or it will need to ram them through an “expedited” legal process to minimize their time in detention.

President Obama tried the latter in 2014. It went horrifically. Pro bono lawyers who went to family detention facilities (which were flung together in a matter of weeks) reported that it was all but impossible for families to get due process for their asylum claims.

The former is what families are still going through at the Pennsylvania facility. The long-term detention of immigrant children raises some of the same concerns that keeping them in custody without their parents does, in terms of long-term trauma. Bright lights in the Burks facility reportedly keep children from sleeping well, for example — and they can be disciplined if they try to climb into a parent’s bed for comfort.

Furthermore, getting rid of the Flores settlement entirely wouldn’t just get rid of the mandate to release children; it would also get rid of the requirements for what conditions children must be held in. In other words, the legal standards that undergird the Office of Refugee Resettlement facilities — standards that Trump administration officials brag are among the highest in the world — would be wiped away.

Depending on what replaced Flores, it’s possible that ICE could simply use existing adult detention facilities to herd children into as well.

The Trump administration could hold itself to higher standards. But for that matter, it could also find an alternative to detaining immigrant families that still allowed the government to ensure they showed up in court. It does not appear inclined to do so.
 
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Legacy

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Government could hold migrant families indefinitely in unlicensed detention centers under new plan (Reveal, Nov 19, 2018)

Migrant families could be held indefinitely in unlicensed detention centers under a new federal plan that also would end critical court protections for immigrant children, according to new court records.

Under the so-called Flores agreement, created in 1997, the U.S. Office of Refugee Resettlement “shall release a minor from its custody without unnecessary delay” to a parent, relative, legal guardian or adult designated by a parent.

But new Trump administration regulations would dismantle the landmark Flores agreement and allow authorities to release children only to a parent or legal guardian – even if those adult guardians are detained.

The new restrictions would maintain “family unity,” according to the government. But immigration lawyers argue that some children could be held in detention with their parents indefinitely while their immigration case is pending.

Lawyers also raise concerns about licensing requirements. Under Flores, children must be placed in state-licensed shelters that require certain standards such as specific staff-to-child ratios and reporting suspected child abuse.

In another significant change, the new Trump regulations would allow children who arrived with parents to be detained in unlicensed family detention centers. The Department of Homeland Security would hire an auditor to “ensure compliance with the family residential standards established by ICE (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement),” the rules read.

Put another way, the government would be licensing itself.

“It’s absurd,” said Neha Desai, immigration director for the National Center for Youth Law and one of the lawyers in the Flores case.

“If these regulations were to go into effect in this country, it would be a dramatic step backward in providing the most fundamental of rights and protections for some of the most vulnerable children in this country,” Desai said.

The new regulations would affect the nearly 13,000 children currently in the care of the Office of Refugee Resettlement, which operates more than 100 shelters in 17 states.

“What they’re trying to do with the rules is expand their power to detain families and children for longer in worse conditions,” said Ai-jen Poo, one of the leaders of the Families Belong Together coalition.

The Flores standards, she added, put “a check on the administration.”

The Flores agreement forced the government to comply with a set of national standards on the detention, care and release of immigrant children. The settlement was a result of a class-action lawsuit filed in 1985 by immigrant advocacy groups over the treatment of unaccompanied minors.

In September, the Departments of Homeland Security and Health and Human Services moved to replace the agreement with the new regulations. Lawyers representing the children filed an injunction Nov. 2, arguing that the new rules violate the terms of the Flores agreement.

The Department of Health and Human Services declined to comment because the case is pending. In a response filed last week, government lawyers argue that the injunction is “premature” because the regulations aren’t finalized. Officials still have to review more than 95,000 comments submitted by the public since the rules were posted in the Federal Register on Sept. 7.

The new rules also would strip children of the right to see an immigration judge if they’re considered a flight risk or a danger to themselves or others. Instead, a minor could request a hearing before an official from the Department of Health and Human Services, “hardly a neutral and detached decisionmaker,” lawyers say in court filings.

That arrangement may mean more children end up in psychiatric facilities or jails such as the Yolo County Juvenile Detention Facility in California, where minors have reported being pepper-sprayed by guards.

“I cannot shower because the water is so hot that it is making my hair fall out,” a 17-year-old held at Yolo told lawyers, according to the court filings. “The food here tastes bad, the only thing that I eat is fruit because the rest does not have any flavor. I have lost weight since being in Yolo because I can’t eat the food.”

Leah Chavla, policy adviser at the Women’s Refugee Commission, said the proposed regulations are concerning because the government has violated the Flores agreement before. Over the summer, for instance, Shiloh Treatment Center near Houston came under scrutiny for injecting immigrant children in its care with powerful psychiatric drugs without proper consent. A federal judge ordered the government in July to stop the practice, though attorneys allege it’s still continuing.

“They’re saying, ‘Trust me, trust us, we’re going to self-regulate,’ ” Chavla said. “It’s just expecting everybody to place blind trust on them, and I don’t think that’s warranted.”

A hearing on the regulations is scheduled for Nov. 30 in front of U.S. District Judge Dolly Gee in the Central District of California.

Judge Gee has been ruling on these for years (see below) and in June denied Jeff Sessions request to modify the Flores Agreement saying that it is an issue that the legislative branch needs to resolve.

Judge Orders Release of Immigrant Children Detained by U.S. (NYTimes, July 25, 2015)
Excerpt:
A federal judge in California has ruled that the Obama administration’s detention of children and their mothers who were caught crossing the border illegally is a serious violation of a longstanding court settlement, and that the families should be released as quickly as possible.

In a decision late Friday roundly rejecting the administration’s arguments for holding the families, Judge Dolly M. Gee of Federal District Court for the Central District of California found that two detention centers in Texas that the administration opened last summer fail to meet minimum legal requirements of the 1997 settlement for facilities housing children.

How familiar do these words sound, as another President said, when he moved to speed up deportations?
"We are a nation of immigrants, but we are also a nation of laws,. And it is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years."
and,
"Our nation was built by immigrants. But we won't tolerate immigration by people whose first act is to break the law as they enter our country." Pres. Bill Clinton, 1995
 
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Irish YJ

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Hillary Clinton says Europe needs to curb migration to counter nationalism
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/22/europe/hillary-clinton-migration-europe-intl/index.html

Shows a couple things
1. Dems don't give a shit about immigrants
2. It's more important for her party to stop the right, than to help immigrants.
3. She found more reasons (immigration and media) to blame her 2016 loss on.
4. Sounds like she's floating the "get immigration under control" narrative to start winning back the middle for her run in 2020
 

NorthDakota

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Hillary Clinton says Europe needs to curb migration to counter nationalism
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/22/europe/hillary-clinton-migration-europe-intl/index.html

Shows a couple things
1. Dems don't give a shit about immigrants
2. It's more important for her party to stop the right, than to help immigrants.
3. She found more reasons (immigration and media) to blame her 2016 loss on.
4. Sounds like she's floating the "get immigration under control" narrative to start winning back the middle for her run in 2020

I died when I read the article. Her chief concern is not protecting the country. It's about preventing "right-wing" parties from taking over. I almost admire her for it, at least she was honest for a change. I
 

EddytoNow

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Hillary Clinton says Europe needs to curb migration to counter nationalism
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/22/europe/hillary-clinton-migration-europe-intl/index.html

Shows a couple things
1. Dems don't give a shit about immigrants
2. It's more important for her party to stop the right, than to help immigrants.
3. She found more reasons (immigration and media) to blame her 2016 loss on.
4. Sounds like she's floating the "get immigration under control" narrative to start winning back the middle for her run in 2020

Hillary Clinton needs to quietly fade into the background. She will never again get the nomination of the Democratic Party. The Dems have moved on from the Clintons. They have finally figured out that the Clintons represent the old order. The only old-school moderate Democrat with any cred with the progressives is Joe Biden (and perhaps Sherrod Brown), who can still relate to the labor unions and the working class.

The ideal Democratic ticket for 2020 is either Joe Biden or Sherrod Brown for president with someone like Beto O'Rourke or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a running mate to turn out the progressives and the younger voters.
 

Irish YJ

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Hillary Clinton needs to quietly fade into the background. She will never again get the nomination of the Democratic Party. The Dems have moved on from the Clintons. They have finally figured out that the Clintons represent the old order. The only old-school moderate Democrat with any cred with the progressives is Joe Biden (and perhaps Sherrod Brown), who can still relate to the labor unions and the working class.

The ideal Democratic ticket for 2020 is either Joe Biden or Sherrod Brown for president with someone like Beto O'Rourke or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a running mate to turn out the progressives and the younger voters.

Yet both Biden (front runner nom so far) and Pelosi (going to be the SotH again) are both absolutely Old Order.

Money talks, which is why Pelosi is crushing the new order. HRC can compete $$ too.

If new order folks like AOC got on the ticket, it would scare the GOP to the polls in record #s, and also turn off a lot of mod dems. while a lot of mods/ind hate Trump, "just pay for it" clueless folks like AOC would scare a lot of ind/mods right back to the right.

and for the record, i'm for a single payer model if done right. AOC is completely clueless on how to accomplish something like that.

if things are going to go completely progressive batshit crazy, give me Bernie please, not AOC.

BO'R couldn't beat a Canadian (Cruz) for senate. He's flipped parties twice, and has a dicey history. Arrested at least twice (his daddy got him off), and rumored more times. I think the GOP ignored him in the mid terms (because it was TX), but the digging they'd do on him next time would be deep.
 

Irish YJ

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I died when I read the article. Her chief concern is not protecting the country. It's about preventing "right-wing" parties from taking over. I almost admire her for it, at least she was honest for a change. I

She's all about self and party preservation. People be damned.

Agree, at least she's honest, instead of acting like she really cares...
 

NorthDakota

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Hillary Clinton needs to quietly fade into the background. She will never again get the nomination of the Democratic Party. The Dems have moved on from the Clintons. They have finally figured out that the Clintons represent the old order. The only old-school moderate Democrat with any cred with the progressives is Joe Biden (and perhaps Sherrod Brown), who can still relate to the labor unions and the working class.

The ideal Democratic ticket for 2020 is either Joe Biden or Sherrod Brown for president with someone like Beto O'Rourke or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as a running mate to turn out the progressives and the younger voters.

.....AOC? You jokin fam?

She's not even eligible.
 

ACamp1900

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Just came back from El Paso... the Beto supporters were funny, not a one single of them I came across had any reason for supporting the guy aside from some sad notion that America legitimately sucks and he’d somehow make it suck less... even had some hard Beto supporter who randomly just happened to share my last name literally spit at the playing of God Bless America and state openly she’d never celebrate the 4th of July again... but Beto was cool..... It took me time to even try to comprehend these people.
 

Irish YJ

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Just came back from El Paso... the Beto supporters were funny, not a one single of them I came across had any reason for supporting the guy aside from some sad notion that America legitimately sucks and he’d somehow make it suck less... even had some hard Beto supporter who randomly just happened to share my last name literally spit at the playing of God Bless America and state openly she’d never celebrate the 4th of July again... but Beto was cool..... It took me time to even try to comprehend these people.

one of my best buds from my 20s (PU engineer) lives in El Paso. Met and married a girl from one of the GM plants across the border. He said it's gotten beyond silliness there. Getting to be Austin-like. He'd move if his wife's family weren't right across the border.
 

zelezo vlk

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Beto is a neoliberal tool who isn't even progressive. He also has the charisma of a can of beans (not frijoles). He's not a positive on any ticket.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

Irish YJ

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Beto is a neoliberal tool who isn't even progressive. He also has the charisma of a can of beans (not frijoles). He's not a positive on any ticket.

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he actually jumped ship to the GOP party at one point, lost his bid, and then jumped back.
don't be hating on beans like that. beans have feelings too.
 

NorthDakota

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Beto is a neoliberal tool who isn't even progressive. He also has the charisma of a can of beans (not frijoles). He's not a positive on any ticket.

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So he's a shitty modern version of JFK lite? Sounds about right for the modern left.
 

Irish YJ

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So he's a shitty modern version of JFK lite? Sounds about right for the modern left.

Interesting, or not interesting enough, his father was Sec. of Navy under JFK. He also was the chairman of both Jesse Jackson's presidential campaigns.

<iframe width="600" height="400" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OjKXHFtkHss" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Legacy

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Many border state Hispanics have lived there for many decades and some for centuries. Those families who have lived there prior to Arizona and New Mexico were admitted to the Union in 1912 can be vocal about new immigrants from Latin America work towards citizenship and not be a burden to taxpayers like them or cross the border illegally.

Those high school students from those long-time residential families do not necessarily hang together and their groups can be quite vocal and may be quite antagonistic to the Latin Americans who are illegals or "anchor babies", though considering they had no control over that.

Citizenship is a right with responsibilities but also should be an opportunity.
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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Many border state Hispanics have lived there for many decades and some for centuries. Those families who have lived there prior to Arizona and New Mexico were admitted to the Union in 1912 can be vocal about new immigrants from Latin America work towards citizenship and not be a burden to taxpayers like them or cross the border illegally.

Those high school students from those long-time residential families do not necessarily hang together and their groups can be quite vocal and may be quite antagonistic to the Latin Americans who are illegals or "anchor babies", though considering they had no control over that.

Citizenship is a right with responsibilities but also should be an opportunity.

To whom is citizenship a right and where does that right come from?
 

Irish YJ

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To whom is citizenship a right and where does that right come from?

This is the problem with the Left, with Latin American, and a lot of other countries these days. They believe everyone, regardless of their situation has the right to US citizenship.

The left sees votes, and only talks about curbing illegal immigration when they want to stop the rise of the GOP. They could give two shits about the well being of illegals or immigrants in general.

Meanwhile, the left and immigrants are abusing every hole in our broken immigration laws. Asylum requests are overwhelmingly economic in nature, and a free pass to get in the door and never show up for court.

A right.... lol...
 

drayer54

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To whom is citizenship a right and where does that right come from?

Those born here or to american citizens in good standing. Naturalized citizens that complete the process.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The intent was obviously freed slaves during the Reconstruction period. It would be a court battle to interpret that for anchor babies.
 

Legacy

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To whom is citizenship a right and where does that right come from?

To Drayer's response, I can only add that families whose ancestors became citizens through the naturalization process expect others to follow the same path to citizenship and are responsible to defend that process. That's often one of the reasons that divides Hispanics who are citizens and those who are not, especially in border states. I can't fault judges for following those legislative directives. Like they have said, it's on Congress to change them. We have a problem with illegal immigration Congress should address and with crime.

But in a different time, that naturalization process may have been different.
In Martinez's grandparents' era, 'no such thing as an undocumented immigrant'
 
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