Immigration

[ColoradoIrish]

I don't know if it's really been refuted.

From the article:

I've seen so much contradicting info regarding that that's why I was asking. Like I said not defending the guy, just trying to defend our systems of checks and balances

 

[ColoradoIrish]

It’s your implication in responding to Bua.

Bua : Police are dumb racists Trump supporters

You: Let me tell you a trauma story to respond and agree

Because racial profiling in the police force is a problem.

 

[Blazers46]

Like I said previously I'm not defending the guy, but isn't the whole premise of saying he's deportable based on some saying he's a member of ms-13? Which has been refuted to the best of my knowledge

Kilmar Abrego Garcia is an MS-13 Gang member with a History of Violence | Homeland Security

The mainstream media has peddled a sob story about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. The facts are he is an illegal alien from El Salvador, a MS-13 gang member, and has a history of violence.

www.dhs.gov

 

[BuaConstrictor]

I've seen so much contradicting info regarding that that's why I was asking. Like I said not defending the guy, just trying to defend our systems of checks and balances

The facts behind Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia’s deportation - Poynter

El Salvador's president and Trump officials misrepresented Abrego Garcia’s case, his protections, and a Supreme Court order to return him

www.poynter.org

Abrego Garcia and MS-13: What Do We Know?

The allegation seems to stem from double hearsay in a document authored by a later suspended police detective.

www.lawfaremedia.org

It's been refuted.

Pretty reliably as well.

 

[Blazers46]

Because racial profiling in the police force is a problem.

So you agree with Bua… to my point.

 

[ColoradoIrish]

Kilmar Abrego Garcia is an MS-13 Gang member with a History of Violence | Homeland Security

The mainstream media has peddled a sob story about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. The facts are he is an illegal alien from El Salvador, a MS-13 gang member, and has a history of violence.

www.dhs.gov

Abrego Garcia and MS-13: What Do We Know?

The allegation seems to stem from double hearsay in a document authored by a later suspended police detective.

www.lawfaremedia.org

Like I said conflicting reports

 

[ColoradoIrish]

So you agree with Bua… to my point.

No I don't agree with everything he said. From personal experience I can confidently say there's a difference between being racist and racial profiling

 

[ab2cmiller]

Would people be OK living next to "not a real member", only an associate/probationary member of MS-13. I guess the Dem's are correct that he was not a "member".

 

[ColoradoIrish]

Would people be OK living next to "not a real member", only an associate/probationary member of MS-13. I guess the Dem's are correct that he was not a "member".

The issue is the lack of checks and balances and skipping the whole judicial process. Again not defending the guy

 

[BuaConstrictor]

Would people be OK living next to "not a real member", only an associate/probationary member of MS-13. I guess the Dem's are correct that he was not a "member".

That's not the point of the tweet. It's pointing out the administration(again) doesn't even have a coherent view on this based on their own "evidence"...which the author of the tweet even calls dubious. The admin is claiming that Garcia is a leader of MS-13 when that's not even what their own shit evidence claims.

There is nothing substantial, tangible, or of evidentiary value that ties Garcia to MS-13.

One would think that if he was such a high ranking member of MS-13...or a member at all...they'd have more evidence to this claim than a highly dubious and unsupported Home Depot arrest from six years ago. Did he...just..like..retire? What kind of pension does MS-13 offer?

 

[BuaConstrictor]

No I don't agree with everything he said

Hey...fuck you!

 

[ab2cmiller]

The issue is the lack of checks and balances and skipping the whole judicial process. Again not defending the guy

The point of the article seemed to imply that there was a judicial process.

"found by an immigration judge to be a member of a criminal gang now designated a terrorist organization, and that judge’s finding was upheld on appeal."

I haven't followed this case closely. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

 

[Blazers46]

Would people be OK living next to "not a real member", only an associate/probationary member of MS-13. I guess the Dem's are correct that he was not a "member".

No, glad he’s gone.

 

[Blazers46]

I haven't followed this case closely. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

This administration deported somebody. They disagree with it. That’s about it.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

The point of the article seemed to imply that there was a judicial process.

I haven't followed this case closely.

I'm starting to notice a pattern here.

"found by an immigration judge to be a member of a criminal gang now designated a terrorist organization, and that judge’s finding was upheld on appeal."

Holy shit. This covers it all.

Abrego Garcia and MS-13: What Do We Know?

The allegation seems to stem from double hearsay in a document authored by a later suspended police detective.

www.lawfaremedia.org

 

[ab2cmiller]

 

[ColoradoIrish]

The point of the article seemed to imply that there was a judicial process.

"found by an immigration judge to be a member of a criminal gang now designated a terrorist organization, and that judge’s finding was upheld on appeal."

I haven't followed this case closely. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

That court case seems to refute him being a member of ms-13 that's why I said I've seen conflicting reports

 

[Blazers46]

No I don't agree with everything he said. From personal experience I can confidently say there's a difference between being racist and racial profiling

Here is a fun story just now… like I’m typing this in the parking lot. I was just at a Michigan court house pulling a record for DHS. A cop asked to see my badge and I said no… because he has nothing to do with anything. He said he has full authority to detain me to see who I am. I ignored him and he called another officer over. I called my security team which then called their agency and told them to stand down and leave me alone. They did and I made sure to tell them goodbye when I left. Cops are sometimes assholes, equal opportunity assholes.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

That court case seems to refute him being a member of ms-13 that's why I said I've seen conflicting reports

I tried to absorb the legal document, but frankly it's confusing. Everything in the linked document seemed to revolve around complaints from those representing the defendant that there was no "proof" that he was a gang member. The whole thing seems to revolve around the fact that a confidential informant identified him as a gang member/associate. Evidently the immigration judge found that sufficient. The appellate judge evidently found it sufficient.

The issue appears to be that they screwed up in deporting him specifically to El Salvador. There was an immigration judge's order that stated that they couldn't. It looks like they could've deported him to absolutely anyplace other than El Salvador.

Now that he has been deported to El Salvador, the judge has issued a confusing ambiguous order that the US Government needs to put forth some level of effort to try to get him returned to the US.

I do think it's likely that if Trump really pressed for his return, El Salvador would comply. But how can you prove that?

 

[ColoradoIrish]

Here is a fun story just now… like I’m typing this in the parking lot. I was just at a Michigan court house pulling a record for DHS. A cop asked to see my badge and I said no… because he has nothing to do with anything. He said he has full authority to detain me to see who I am. I ignored him and he called another officer over. I called my security team which then called their agency and told them to stand down and leave me alone. They did and I made sure to tell them goodbye when I left. Cops are sometimes assholes to everyone, equal opportunity assholes.

I don't disagree. It goes back to my whole thing about more training for them.

Like I said I fully believe there's a difference between racist cops and racial profiling.

 

[NDVirginia19]

The issue is the lack of checks and balances and skipping the whole judicial process. Again not defending the guy

It’s a bit complicated, because it is an article II court rather than an article III court. But precedent is that federal courts have oversight over executive courts

 

[BuaConstrictor]

but frankly it's confusing.

Evidently the immigration judge found that sufficient. The appellate judge evidently found it sufficient.

This is incorrect. Abrego was eventually released as his case went nowhere.

If he was a danger to the community and a known gang member/leader, do you think the court releases him?

One would think that if he was such a high ranking member of MS-13...or a member at all...they'd have more evidence to this claim than a highly dubious and unsupported Home Depot arrest from six years ago.(That even the judge in 2019 found dubious) Did he...just..like..retire? What kind of pension does MS-13 offer?

Many times as bond hearings the evidentiary standard is flipped and leans towards you having to prove your innocence re: the charge at hand rather than the state having to prove their case. Courts tend to side with the state/government re: bond more often than not.

But how can you prove that?

Logic. We got Brittany Griner out of a Russian gulag when she had actually committed an offense in Russia. I'm sure the US government could lean on El Salvador to get someone who hasn't committed any crime and was deported by accident.

 

[Blazers46]

I don't disagree. It goes back to my whole thing about more training for them

I honestly don’t think that would be the solution. When you give someone a sense of authority, they tend to try to exude the authority. Power is like a drug and some people try to exude their power where it does not belong to feel more powerful. To be fair, I am credentialed by many agencies so I carry many different badges. I’d be lying if there was not some sort of sense of power or authority behind those badges. I don’t abuse it and let the badges speak for themselves, but I could easily ruin someone’s day and be an asshole. I just choose not to, but some do.

 

[ColoradoIrish]

I honestly don’t think that would be the solution. When you give someone a sense of authority, they tend to try to exude the authority. Power is like a drug and some people try to exude their power where it does not belong to feel more powerful. To be fair, I am credentialed by many agencies so I carry many different badges. I’d be lying if there was not some sort of sense of power or authority behind those badges. I don’t abuse it and let the badges speak for themselves, but I could easily ruin someone’s day and be an asshole. I just choose not to, but some do.

There's so many factors that are involved. It would be dumb to limit it to one thing. I wasn't trying to imply that at all. It's a sensitive subject that I think everyone would like to see improved upon

 

[ab2cmiller]

Excellent Video summarizing things. Again, in this particular case. He's had due process. The Venezuelan's not so much.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

He's had due process.

Again. Not true. There is an actual process to be followed to get his "withholding of removal status" rescinded AND an actual process to be followed to have him deported. There is a reason they are called "deportation proceedings". Neither were done. That's the exact opposite of "due process". The DOJ/Trump's own administration admit this due process was not followed because he was deported as a result of an "administrative error".....that error(among others): not following the process to rescind the withholding of removal status! (1)

To top it all off:

He's currently sitting in a prison in El Salvador and he has no criminal record. (2)

Bring him back, initiate deportation proceedings, follow the appropriate steps..and if he is eligible for deportation and ends up being deported..so be it. Do things the right way. Also, if he is deported to El Salvador..or anywhere else...that doesn't mean he ends up in a prison for life when he has committed no crime. He would be more than free to self deport and go live freely in another country.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

There is also an argument that Abrego (and frankly a ton of others) could have made during his deportation hearing(you know..due process) under the Conventions Against Torture. The US is duty bound under CAT to not deport someone to a country where they are in danger of being tortured. Abrego was granted his withholding of removal status primarily/in part because of threats against his family in El Salvador & CECOT is one of the world's most notoriously torture-ridden prisons.

So again, these are all parts of the due process that should have been carried out and weren't.

 

[BuaConstrictor]

 

[NorthDakota]

Like I said previously I'm not defending the guy, but isn't the whole premise of saying he's deportable based on some saying he's a member of ms-13? Which has been refuted to the best of my knowledge

Hes reportable based on being an illegal immigrant. I believe he was sent to this place on gang allegations (i think).

If for whatever reason he is brought back, I believe the plan is to put him on a plane again. He's not going to be living in the US, if I understand correctly.

 

[RDU Irish]

Are we still defending the wife beating, human trafficking gang member who illegally entered our country?