Hugo Chavez Dies

[Bogtrotter07]

Thata boy!


As crazy and arrogant as some on here label me for thinking this...I think they're crazy and debbie-downers for constantly bringing down people like myself with their constant 200 year old crap.


Listen, is there anywhere else in the world that we could all be having this kinda convo? Or anywhere in the world where you can make this kinda money? Or have this standard of living (40k a year is considered "poor")?

The part I can't get over is that you young ones think it is so good now. It was really much better for everyone 20 years ago. Better than that for everyone (white) 30 years ago. And much better than that for everyone white forty years ago.

I remember I was nineteen in 1976, and just about that time I negotiating the purchase of a Corvette. They did the bate and switch, That was right when the were getting ready with the silver anniversary edition, and the one they ended up with was different than the one I agreed to buy, yaa da yaa da yah. At any rate that purchase price was $4,300. As I remember that was just a little over a third of what my friend made in his first job out of college around the same time. I bought my first property, a two bedroom condo, in 1980, for 35K. I had looked at a couple houses and they were no more that 50K. This was just as I was getting out of the service, which paid nothing then, but my first job in QC at the can company was 35K with a little overtime. You will never see that kind of opportunity again, IMO.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Thanks. Fair enough.

But as for the bolded part, through Pat's own interpretation, perspective, and values, if he's come to the conclusion that the USA is the best, then I say more power to him. Jumping on him about it, therefore, shouldn't be done.




And for any of you that don't believe the USA is the best, I have one question: why are you here? If you believe another country (or countries) offer better opportunities and/or more resemble your value system, then why not move there? Obviously the USA isn't perfect and has problems to overcome, but I don't see much logic in staying somewhere inferior to other options. After all, I wouldn't stay with a company whose principles I disagree with or who offers me fewer opportunities than another job at a company; I wouldn't marry a girl that has less potential or is inferior to other girls out there. I understand that factors such as family can play a role in a decision like where to live, but honestly, I gotta wonder about somebody that won't put his money where his mouth is.

**Note-- not calling you out personally, Shawnee...just put this in here because I was commenting on your post.

Some of us believe "best" is an oversimplifed term, and such a simplistic evaluation could be dangerous, to the point where terrible things like people abdicating their rights, willingly giving them up, could take place.

 

[phork]

There is no more get out of school, work for 30 years, send your kids to school, pay off your house, retire with a company pension.

The American dream is dead.

 

[irishpat183]

I've been to Houston, pal. Your hometown is as big a sh!thole as there is, in these great United States. So be careful about throwing bricks.................... eh?

Was meant as a Buckeye jab! My bad!

My mom is from Worthington

 

[Cackalacky]

There is no more get out of school, work for 30 years, send your kids to school, pay off your house, retire with a company pension.

The American dream is dead.

yup.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Was meant as a Buckeye jab! My bad!

My mom is from Worthington

There goes the neighborhood. LOL!

 

[irishpat183]

The USA isn't the best because of some graphs and polls. I get it. No, I've never lived in another country...but in the age of media where I can plug into any news outlet anywhere on the globe, I'm not dissappointed that I haven't lived anywhere else. I don't think there is anything wrong with believing that where youre from is the best. Nothing wrong with pride.


It's the best for me and my family and the goals that I have. It gives me the best opportunity to make more money than anywhere in the world. In fact, I can say that about anyone. There is a reason that 100's of thousands of immigrants (including my wife's family) came here for a chance to make their lives better. No other county touches us in that regard (we take in more immigrants that all other countries COMBINED).

And any other country that doesn't think we're the best...is free to return any aid that we've lent out at our tax payers expense and free to stop doing biz with us as well.

'Murica

 

[irishpat183]

There is no more get out of school, work for 30 years, send your kids to school, pay off your house, retire with a company pension.

The American dream is dead.

Maybe that's just an outdated dream?

How about getting outta school, starting a social website, and becoming a billionaire?

But that doesn't count, right??

 

[irishpat183]

There goes the neighborhood. LOL!

She's actually a very nice lady who did a good job raising me. I've become an egotistical a$$hole all by myself.

 

[Irish YJ]

There is no more get out of school, work for 30 years, send your kids to school, pay off your house, retire with a company pension.

The American dream is dead.

Look on the bright side. When you bust your @$$ today, you get a good job, and can pay for those who do not bust their @$$es, and those who do not pay taxes. You can also pay for a one term senators health care for the rest of his/her livfe, not to mention send millions to Egypt to help stimulate their economy and help rebuild mosques. Embrace your charitable side today!

 

[irishog77]

Some of us believe "best" is an oversimplifed term, and such a simplistic evaluation could be dangerous, to the point where terrible things like people abdicating their rights, willingly giving them up, could take place.

At some point you have to decide, in life, on "the best." Hell, every morning when we get dressed, we're in some way declaring what we think is our "best" clothing option for the day. And our "best" clothing options change everyday-- due to seasons, daily tasks, the amount of recent activity involved in laundering them, means to acquire new clothes, and so on. "Best" isn't an oversimplified term nor dangerous. Giving all (or many) things the same weight and value is dangerous. A society is unable to form any values, morals, codes, or laws if they are to give every argument or belief equal worth.

It's very easy to rip on Pat for his belief that he thinks the USA is "the best." It's easy to rip on anybody when he makes a declarative statement like that. Virtually anybody can come up with a reason to say why the USA isn't the best. If we wanted to or desired to, we could even come up with reasons why Jesus isn't "the best." When somebody can tell him a legitimate, specific alternative with a valid argument as to what other country is "the best," then maybe he (and others) will listen.

 

[Irish YJ]

At some point you have to decide, in life, on "the best." Hell, every morning when we get dressed, we're in some way declaring what we think is our "best" clothing option for the day. And our "best" clothing options change everyday-- due to seasons, daily tasks, the amount of recent activity involved in laundering them, means to acquire new clothes, and so on. "Best" isn't an oversimplified term nor dangerous. Giving all (or many) things the same weight and value is dangerous. A society is unable to form any values, morals, codes, or laws if they are to give every argument or belief equal worth.

It's very easy to rip on Pat for his belief that he thinks the USA is "the best." It's easy to rip on anybody when he makes a declarative statement like that. Virtually anybody can come up with a reason to say why the USA isn't the best. If we wanted to or desired to, we could even come up with reasons why Jesus isn't "the best." When somebody can tell him a legitimate, specific alternative with a valid argument as to what other country is "the best," then maybe he (and others) will listen.

 

[Grahambo]

Before my grandma passed, I asked her if living in today's world was better or when she was in her prime (she was born in 1933). She said both eras have their perks about them but I sensed from her that living back in the day was a lot better then it is now.

Yeah, its just her opinion but the more I've talked with the older generation the more I hear about 'back then'.

Regardless, America is the best IMO. I've been to several other countries and being an international relations major, I've studied quite a few. Overall, I find it to be the best but that's just my opinion.

 

[irishog77]

Ha!!! Nice!

 

[phork]

The USA isn't the best because of some graphs and polls. I get it. No, I've never lived in another country...but in the age of media where I can plug into any news outlet anywhere on the globe, I'm not dissappointed that I haven't lived anywhere else. I don't think there is anything wrong with believing that where youre from is the best. Nothing wrong with pride.


It's the best for me and my family and the goals that I have. It gives me the best opportunity to make more money than anywhere in the world. In fact, I can say that about anyone. There is a reason that 100's of thousands of immigrants (including my wife's family) came here for a chance to make their lives better. No other county touches us in that regard (we take in more immigrants that all other countries COMBINED).

And any other country that doesn't think we're the best...is free to return any aid that we've lent out at our tax payers expense and free to stop doing biz with us as well.

'Murica

So America is great because you have a lot of immigration? Have you even looked at Canada and its immigration? In our country the total population rise is due to immigration. We actually have a negative birthrate. Meaning there are less babies born here than people that are dying. Toronto and Vancouver are about as ethinically diverse as you can possibly get.

Maybe that's just an outdated dream?

How about getting outta school, starting a social website, and becoming a billionaire?

But that doesn't count, right??

You mean steal someones idea and take it over and make it your own? Yah because everyone does that.

Back in the day everyone used to be able to live the "American Dream". Working for one company for 30 years is out the window. Benefits and decent pensions are out the window.


Listen, I think the US is a great place. Innovation and absolute CAN DO attitude is awesome. When your energy is focused on accomplishing stuff, no one can match it. But there is a reason why people put Canadian Flags on their backpacks and luggage when they travel abroad. So you can pound your chest like a butt hurt Michigan fan does and be all arrogant, but the US has lost its way.

 

[Grahambo]

So America is great because you have a lot of immigration? Have you even looked at Canada and its immigration? In our country the total population rise is due to immigration. We actually have a negative birthrate. Meaning there are less babies born here than people that are dying. Toronto and Vancouver are about as ethinically diverse as you can possibly get.



You mean steal someones idea and take it over and make it your own? Yah because everyone does that.

Back in the day everyone used to be able to live the "American Dream". Working for one company for 30 years is out the window. Benefits and decent pensions are out the window.


Listen, I think the US is a great place. Innovation and absolute CAN DO attitude is awesome. When your energy is focused on accomplishing stuff, no one can match it. But there is a reason why people put Canadian Flags on their backpacks and luggage when they travel abroad. So you can pound your chest like a butt hurt Michigan fan does and be all arrogant, but the US has lost its way.

Not sure where you got your info or if I'm not understanding correctly but the CIA World Factbook disagrees with your 'negative birth rate' assertion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

 

[connor_in]

OK...I know I am gonna get reamed for this, but following the narrative of some here Pat is wrong about America becuase we just suck and are terrible and Pat isn't allowed to or is just wrong to hold his belief but others with different beliefs are allowed to hold theirs because they are right?
NOTE...Tapatalk doesn't give me access to sarcasm italics

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Irish YJ]

Before my grandma passed, I asked her if living in today's world was better or when she was in her prime (she was born in 1933). She said both eras have their perks about them but I sensed from her that living back in the day was a lot better then it is now.

Yeah, its just her opinion but the more I've talked with the older generation the more I hear about 'back then'.

Regardless, America is the best IMO. I've been to several other countries and being an international relations major, I've studied quite a few. Overall, I find it to be the best but that's just my opinion.

Same with my departed grandparents. They all preferred "back then". Most cited people and family in the most general terms. It didn't hit me till my mid 30s until I finally understood. The easiest way for me to describe / compare is....

BACK THEN
Growing up in 70s and early 80s in a crappy poor Catholic Italian neighborhood.... Everyone knew and helped each other. Everyone looked after their neighbors houses, kids, etc.. There was a sense of community, and responsibility to your neighborhood. If someone struggled, people pitched in and helped. My grandmother who was not wealthy by any terms, would cook so much bread, pasta and sauce on Wednesday, she probably fed half the street (everyone would bring their bowls over when she rang the bell out the back door) every week. If you got out of line at school or down the street, you were disciplined by your school or neighbor, then sent home to get it again... Kids woke up on Saturday morning and had to cut their lawns and do chores before venturing out to play in empty lot down the street. You said yes mam, yes sir, please, thank you, and may I. Our parish preist knew everyone's name, and walked down the streets visiting door to door (and said a mass in my backyard when my cat died when I was 7).

Today
Most people can't name more than 10 of their neighbors. They probably haven't been in more than 4 or 5 of their neighbors houses. They distrust more neighbors than they trust. Discipline is limited to taking away PSP for a week, and few kids know what it means to EARN an allowance. Charity amongst neighbors is rare, as you rarely know your neighbors well enough to know if they are struggling. Neighborhood pride is non-existent, as most of us are too busy trying to make more money to get to a better neighborhood. Aside from the busy body old lady down the street, I know more neighbors than just about anyone. Most just don't care to know each other, or are too distrustful of others to make an effort. Kids don't mow old people's lawns (I mow 2 or 3 neighbor's lawns for free that are to old or too sick to do it for themselves) anymore, and most aren't made to mow their own.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

The USA isn't the best because of some graphs and polls. I get it. No, I've never lived in another country...but in the age of media where I can plug into any news outlet anywhere on the globe, I'm not dissappointed that I haven't lived anywhere else. I don't think there is anything wrong with believing that where youre from is the best. Nothing wrong with pride.


It's the best for me and my family and the goals that I have. It gives me the best opportunity to make more money than anywhere in the world. In fact, I can say that about anyone. There is a reason that 100's of thousands of immigrants (including my wife's family) came here for a chance to make their lives better. No other county touches us in that regard (we take in more immigrants that all other countries COMBINED).

And any other country that doesn't think we're the best...is free to return any aid that we've lent out at our tax payers expense and free to stop doing biz with us as well.

'Murica

By this logic since you think we're the best should we stop "doing biz" with every other country in the world.

Look on the bright side. When you bust your @$$ today, you get a good job, and can pay for those who do not bust their @$$es, and those who do not pay taxes. You can also pay for a one term senators health care for the rest of his/her livfe, not to mention send millions to Egypt to help stimulate their economy and help rebuild mosques. Embrace your charitable side today!

U.S. "aid" is not for building mosques, or really even stimulating economies. Before Mubarak fell, Egypt had lost some "aid" since but figures prob. similar, the top 3 recipients of foreign aid were Israel, Egypt, and Colombia. Israel is a developed country with no need for foreign "aid" but they are the largest recipient so they can have a powerful military and continue to be allied with U.S. foreign policy. Egypt received second most aid because they were considered a moderate Arab nation that had a peace agreement with Israel and needed the "aid" so that Mubarak could repress opposition and prevent Islamists from coming to power. Colombia ranks third because they are the only supporter of U.S. foreign policy in the region and use the "aid" to fight the War on Drugs and the rebels. People deride foreign aid as if it was some charitable mission and that we were not helping the poor in America while we were taking care of the poor of the world, when U.S. aid has very little to do with helping poor and is almost entirely about making sure those who are geopolitcally aligned with the United States remain in power.

 

[phork]

Not sure where you got your info or if I'm not understanding correctly but the CIA World Factbook disagrees with your 'negative birth rate' assertion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

It wasn't long ago where it was negative. But then 50 Shades happened.

 

[Irish YJ]

U.S. "aid" is not for building mosques, or really even stimulating economies. Before Mubarak fell, Egypt had lost some "aid" since but figures prob. similar, the top 3 recipients of foreign aid were Israel, Egypt, and Colombia. Israel is a developed country with no need for foreign "aid" but they are the largest recipient so they can have a powerful military and continue to be allied with U.S. foreign policy. Egypt received second most aid because they were considered a moderate Arab nation that had a peace agreement with Israel and needed the "aid" so that Mubarak could repress opposition and prevent Islamists from coming to power. Colombia ranks third because they are the only supporter of U.S. foreign policy in the region and use the "aid" to fight the War on Drugs and the rebels. People deride foreign aid as if it was some charitable mission and that we were not helping the poor in America while we were taking care of the poor of the world, when U.S. aid has very little to do with helping poor and is almost entirely about making sure those who are geopolitcally aligned with the United States remain in power.

What it is for, I could care less (althought there are a bazillion articles out there suggesting what I elude to above). What I do care about is that we are sending millions of dollars anywhere when there is so much need here in the states. There was also a news story on the local CBS affiliate here in Atlanta discussing the Fed's unwillingness to give local tornado victims less than a million, while we are sending ~250M to Egypt to help rebuild their economy. I really don't give a $#!+ where they are, what their corrupt leadership supports, or who they are aligned to, etc.. IMO, lock the borders. Instead of buying support, change the policy to "if your government is found supportive of terrorist activities, we nuke you and walk away, F.. your people, F.. your economy". You may say, well what about all the innocent people not involved.... They are not innocent if they support their governments. Many nations accross the ME have proven governments can be overthrown. Right, wrong, indifferent, we need to get our noses out of everyone's business, and concentrate on making the US the best again.

 

[pumpdog20]

Ozzie loved Fidel Castro and wanted him to rule Venezuela?

What exactly are you asking me?

 

[BobD]

What exactly are you asking me?

Nothing, not sure why I ended with a question mark. I was just sarcastically mentioning Ozzies famous "I love Fidel" quote.

 

[Cackalacky]

By this logic since you think we're the best should we stop "doing biz" with every other country in the world.



U.S. "aid" is not for building mosques, or really even stimulating economies. Before Mubarak fell, Egypt had lost some "aid" since but figures prob. similar, the top 3 recipients of foreign aid were Israel, Egypt, and Colombia. Israel is a developed country with no need for foreign "aid" but they are the largest recipient so they can have a powerful military and continue to be allied with U.S. foreign policy. Egypt received second most aid because they were considered a moderate Arab nation that had a peace agreement with Israel and needed the "aid" so that Mubarak could repress opposition and prevent Islamists from coming to power. Colombia ranks third because they are the only supporter of U.S. foreign policy in the region and use the "aid" to fight the War on Drugs and the rebels. People deride foreign aid as if it was some charitable mission and that we were not helping the poor in America while we were taking care of the poor of the world, when U.S. aid has very little to do with helping poor and is almost entirely about making sure those who are geopolitcally aligned with the United States remain in power.

Exactly. It also ensures the Suez Canal stays open for the majority of the global transportation needs. It is more "The USA needs you to do this so we will give you money and you make sure it happens." It is less about feeding starving people. And imagine if we did not have the War on Drugs.... would we need to send money to Columbia? Would the profiteering weapons manufacturer's lobby allow that even happen?

 

[Cackalacky]

Hugo Chavez Poisoned????

Hugo Chavez Poisoned????

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9vxZP7M2n8g?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Interesting video. Ahmadinejad starts off ok then....... well.... confirmation he is crazy.

 

[dublinirish]

What it is for, I could care less (althought there are a bazillion articles out there suggesting what I elude to above). What I do care about is that we are sending millions of dollars anywhere when there is so much need here in the states. There was also a news story on the local CBS affiliate here in Atlanta discussing the Fed's unwillingness to give local tornado victims less than a million, while we are sending ~250M to Egypt to help rebuild their economy. I really don't give a $#!+ where they are, what their corrupt leadership supports, or who they are aligned to, etc.. IMO, lock the borders. Instead of buying support, change the policy to "if your government is found supportive of terrorist activities, we nuke you and walk away, F.. your people, F.. your economy". You may say, well what about all the innocent people not involved.... They are not innocent if they support their governments. Many nations accross the ME have proven governments can be overthrown. Right, wrong, indifferent, we need to get our noses out of everyone's business, and concentrate on making the US the best again.

this is incredibly narrow minded thinking man...just wow. :/

 

[NDohio]

I find almost hard to believe that the same person that wrote this:

BACK THEN
Growing up in 70s and early 80s in a crappy poor Catholic Italian neighborhood.... Everyone knew and helped each other. Everyone looked after their neighbors houses, kids, etc.. There was a sense of community, and responsibility to your neighborhood. If someone struggled, people pitched in and helped. My grandmother who was not wealthy by any terms, would cook so much bread, pasta and sauce on Wednesday, she probably fed half the street (everyone would bring their bowls over when she rang the bell out the back door) every week. If you got out of line at school or down the street, you were disciplined by your school or neighbor, then sent home to get it again... Kids woke up on Saturday morning and had to cut their lawns and do chores before venturing out to play in empty lot down the street. You said yes mam, yes sir, please, thank you, and may I. Our parish preist knew everyone's name, and walked down the streets visiting door to door (and said a mass in my backyard when my cat died when I was 7).

Today
Most people can't name more than 10 of their neighbors. They probably haven't been in more than 4 or 5 of their neighbors houses. They distrust more neighbors than they trust. Discipline is limited to taking away PSP for a week, and few kids know what it means to EARN an allowance. Charity amongst neighbors is rare, as you rarely know your neighbors well enough to know if they are struggling. Neighborhood pride is non-existent, as most of us are too busy trying to make more money to get to a better neighborhood. Aside from the busy body old lady down the street, I know more neighbors than just about anyone. Most just don't care to know each other, or are too distrustful of others to make an effort. Kids don't mow old people's lawns (I mow 2 or 3 neighbor's lawns for free that are to old or too sick to do it for themselves) anymore, and most aren't made to mow their own.

__________________


Also wrote this:

What it is for, I could care less (althought there are a bazillion articles out there suggesting what I elude to above). What I do care about is that we are sending millions of dollars anywhere when there is so much need here in the states. There was also a news story on the local CBS affiliate here in Atlanta discussing the Fed's unwillingness to give local tornado victims less than a million, while we are sending ~250M to Egypt to help rebuild their economy. I really don't give a $#!+ where they are, what their corrupt leadership supports, or who they are aligned to, etc.. IMO, lock the borders. Instead of buying support, change the policy to "if your government is found supportive of terrorist activities, we nuke you and walk away, F.. your people, F.. your economy". You may say, well what about all the innocent people not involved.... They are not innocent if they support their governments. Many nations accross the ME have proven governments can be overthrown. Right, wrong, indifferent, we need to get our noses out of everyone's business, and concentrate on making the US the best again.

 

[BobD]

I find almost hard to believe that the same person that wrote this:




__________________


Also wrote this:

I've re-read some of my posts the next day and said "WTF was I thinking?" Usually there are a lot of beer bottles in the trash that day,

 

[Bogtrotter07]

At some point you have to decide, in life, on "the best." Hell, every morning when we get dressed, we're in some way declaring what we think is our "best" clothing option for the day. And our "best" clothing options change everyday-- due to seasons, daily tasks, the amount of recent activity involved in laundering them, means to acquire new clothes, and so on. "Best" isn't an oversimplified term nor dangerous. Giving all (or many) things the same weight and value is dangerous. A society is unable to form any values, morals, codes, or laws if they are to give every argument or belief equal worth.

It's very easy to rip on Pat for his belief that he thinks the USA is "the best." It's easy to rip on anybody when he makes a declarative statement like that. Virtually anybody can come up with a reason to say why the USA isn't the best. If we wanted to or desired to, we could even come up with reasons why Jesus isn't "the best." When somebody can tell him a legitimate, specific alternative with a valid argument as to what other country is "the best," then maybe he (and others) will listen.

I agree with almost everything you say in the first paragraph, I just don't think that way. And my point was not that not using "best" as a value, strips anything of distinction, or in anyway, removes or degrades moral or legal value. In fact, my point is, and this is kind of Maslovian, that best falls on the simple law and order level of operation, and that is down near the bottom of human existence.

A good example of that is evolution of "law and order in the American West." If you want a particularly mind-boggling experience, look to the rapid evolution of mining towns like Deadwood, SD, or read of the early history of Mormonism, through the Statehood of Utah. There is some real good examples of oversimplified approaches to legislation and governance for secessionists! The point is humans (some at least) are very sophisticated beings. They need great discrimination in developing coda that works for all. Best doesn't cut it as an absolute value.

And you realize I never ripped Pat for anything he said in this thread, right?

 

[dshans]

Usually there are a lot of beer bottles in the trash that day,

Reduce, Reuse and Recycle, dammit!!!