Hugo Chavez Dies

[Cackalacky]

Chavez altered the Venezuelan Constitution to allow unlimited re-elections. His vice president will most likely be elected and continue on the same policies.

And the dumb idea that Chavez and Obama are buddies is ridiculous. Just stop it.......

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Wow, some good posts!

Instead of inaccurately lambasting a dead man, which seemed to be the original intent of this thread, we could talk about the political opening this presents the United States to secure energy resources in our own hemisphere, set the Chinese back, and show the world the days of us setting puppet despots versus gunboat diplomacy are over!

There were two coups in the country with big money on one side, and HC on an other. The record was 1-1. Both resulted in deceipt and murder; it is true.

 

[Cackalacky]

Wow, some good posts!

Instead of inaccurately lambasting a dead man, which seemed to be the original intent of this thread, we could talk about the political opening this presents the United States to secure energy resources in our own hemisphere, set the Chinese back, and show the world the days of us setting puppet despots versus gunboat diplomacy are over!

There were two coups in the country with big money on one side, and HC on an other. The record was 1-1. Both resulted in deceipt and murder; it is true.

Our Latin America puppet despot record is atrocious....I want my money back from Noriega.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

What about Samoza? Residue from the USMC's banana wars. We were always taught grandpa had been a Marine, I guess it wasn't as simple as that, but it is a case study in how we did it before the CIA.

 

[irish4ever]

The guy was a complete dirtbag, similar to so many US politicians on both sides of the aisle. The world is now a better place.

Ditto this!!!

 

[irishpat183]

The tittle of this thread is stupid. Anyhow, Chavez was elected in free and fair elections something like 6 times and survived a US backed coup. Say what you will but the attempts to demonize this guy were rediculous, particularly when you consider this country's **** poor human rights record and the insane levels of corruption in our own political system.

People's lives down there didn't get ANY better. They got worse. Do some research.

But he got richer!

 

[irishpat183]

Bluto and those defending this guy obviously don't know what they're talking about and have been sipping on the kool-aid.

The thread wasnt so much to "celebrate" his death but to just report it. And whoever changed my thread title can see me in the principles office. COME ON!

And anyone on here that claims they dont celebrate anymans death, I bet was cheering from the rooftops when ***** went down.

 

[connor_in]

While the history of the US foreign policy in this region is indeed ugly, Chavez was no hero in his own right either. The people of his country who have come to other countries like the US practically lose their mind when a Sean Penn or other actor or media figure show support for this guy. These expatriates tell the stories of the suppression and death under his "fairly elected" regime.

So for those arguing that because one side did bad things the other is better...this is incorrect. This is not a zero sum game. My friends who tell the stories of family and friends under HC's rule lead me to believe that his death in some ways is a good thing.

I am sure there will be instability and fighting for control soon. Hopefully, some good will come out of it.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bogtrotter07]

While the history of the US foreign policy in this region is indeed ugly, Chavez was no hero in his own right either. The people of his country who have come to other countries like the US practically lose their mind when a Sean Penn or other actor or media figure show support for this guy. These expatriates tell the stories of the suppression and death under his "fairly elected" regime.

So for those arguing that because one side did bad things the other is better...this is incorrect. This is not a zero sum game. My friends who tell the stories of family and friends under HC's rule lead me to believe that his death in some ways is a good thing.

I am sure there will be instability and fighting for control soon. Hopefully, some good will come out of it.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

This is it - distilled down to the genius, IMO.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Bluto and those defending this guy obviously don't know what they're talking about and have been sipping on the kool-aid.

The thread wasnt so much to "celebrate" his death but to just report it. And whoever changed my thread title can see me in the principles office. COME ON!

And anyone on here that claims they dont celebrate anymans death, I bet was cheering from the rooftops when ***** went down.

I don't like cheering any person's death, especially world figures, since our "celebration" can often become the fuel for some other person who sees the US as the evil empire.

 

[irishpat183]

Bluto and those defending this guy obviously don't know what they're talking about and have been sipping on the kool-aid.

The thread wasnt so much to "celebrate" his death but to just report it. And whoever changed my thread title can see me in the principles office. COME ON!

And anyone on here that claims they dont celebrate anymans death, I bet was cheering from the rooftops when ***** went down.

Why did they censor "***** Bin *****"?

Are you kidding?

 

[Irish Houstonian]

^I think b/c that was that one troll who used to post all those beautiful pictures.

 

[Irish4Life09]

At least for his lifetime he became acclimated to a very warm environment. It should be a smooth transition for him

 

[Bluto]

I'm not defending anyone. The only thing I pointed out was that there were multiple attempts to paint this guy as the next coming of Hitler here in the US and per usual the US media was basically regurgitating propoganda instead of doing real reporting. I feel pretty comfortable saying that every US President since Eisenhower has more blood on their hands than Chavez due to our Global follies in South America, The Middle East and Indo China.

As for doing research on Venezuela I've studied and read plenty of South American history. In the specific case of the Chavez regime things got better for the poorest of the poor in terms of educational achievement and literacy rates. Wealth inequality has also been reduced dramatically. It is no wonder that the masses of poor loved the guy and corporate and media elites hated him.

Here's a link to an obviously progresive site but it does include citations from the BBC and the like.

Fear of a Venezuelan Example — FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting

 

[BobD]

I agree with Bluto. Some of you guys Watch some TV or read some articles and act as if you're privy to intelligence reports or knew him. It might be shocking for some of you to hear what the media in other countries says about us and our leaders. Many people believe it too.

He was both better and worse than you've heard.....just like us.

 

[irishpat183]

I'm not defending anyone. The only thing I pointed out was that there were multiple attempts to paint this guy as the next coming of Hitler here in the US and per usual the US media was basically regurgitating propoganda instead of doing real reporting. As for doing research on Venezuela I've studied and read plenty of South American history. In the specific case of the Chavez regime things got better for the poorest of the poor in terms of educational achievement and literacy rates. Wealth inequality has also been reduced dramatically. It is no wonder that the masses of poor loved the guy and corporate and media elites hated him.

Here's a link to an obviously progresive site but it does include citations from the BBC and the like.

Fear of a Venezuelan Example — FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting

The same US media that paints Obama as a great guy using propoganda?


Nothing got better in Venezula. Working conditions were terrible. Water wasn't accessable. It was still an incredibly poor country (and no, not the country bank account, but the people)..Massive fraud in his elections, the beating and killing of those that opposed him, media blackouts, he put private food vendors outta biz by selling food at upwards of 40% discounts (which they couldn't keep in stock, there were always shortages) Homicide rates doubled while he was in office, he hated jews(half the jew population left the country during his presidency)....The list goes on and on.


But hey! They could read better!!!!

 

[irishpat183]

I agree with Bluto. Some of you guys Watch some TV or read some articles and act as if you're privy to intelligence reports or knew him. It might be shocking for some of you to hear what the media in other countries says about us and our leaders. Many people believe it too.

He was both better and worse than you've heard.....just like us.

But we're American. Are we supposed to bash ourselves?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to "self-hating".

We're not perfect. Just better than everyone else.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

"Looking at key indicators we can see that poverty levels and illiteracy have fallen but violent crime and inflation has increased. "

How did Venezuela change under Hugo Chávez? | News | guardian.co.uk

 

[pkt77242]

But we're American. Are we supposed to bash ourselves?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to "self-hating".

We're not perfect. Just better than everyone else.

I believe it is called self-awareness. This explains why I disagree with you so often.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

But we're American. Are we supposed to bash ourselves?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to "self-hating".

We're not perfect. Just better than everyone else.

Great job summing up American arrogance.

 

[Cackalacky]

But we're American. Are we supposed to bash ourselves?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to "self-hating".

We're not perfect. Just better than everyone else.

Tell that to the Native Americans. The trail of tears and westward expansion was an 1800s version of a train to Auschwitz. This attitude that America is civilization's ultimate pinnacle is scary.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

"Chavez will continue to be an inspiration for all peoples who fight for their liberation.Chavez will always be present in all the regions of the world and all social sectors. Hugo Chavez will always be with us, accompanying us. We are in pain." Evo Morales - President of Bolivia

"Chavez's death was an "irreparable loss" for Latin America. We have lost a revolutionary, but millions of us remain inspired." Rafael Correa - President of Ecuador

"You are always saddened by a death. But when you are talking about someone who has fought on the front line, and about someone who I remember I once called 'the most generous leader I have met', well the pain takes on a whole new dimension." Jose Mujica - President of Uruguay

Chavez "will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments.
We came to know a man who expressed a vision to bring profound changes to his country to benefit especially those people who had felt neglected and marginalised." Jimmy Carter - Fmr. President of the United States

"If we are moving towards peace it's due to the unlimited dedication of Chávez and the government of Venezuela," Juan Manuel Santos, President of Colombia

 

[greyhammer90]

The same US media that paints Obama as a great guy using propoganda?

But we're American. Are we supposed to bash ourselves?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to "self-hating".

Ironic.

 

[irishpat183]

"Chavez will continue to be an inspiration for all peoples who fight for their liberation.Chavez will always be present in all the regions of the world and all social sectors. Hugo Chavez will always be with us, accompanying us. We are in pain." Evo Morales - President of Bolivia

"Chavez's death was an "irreparable loss" for Latin America. We have lost a revolutionary, but millions of us remain inspired." Rafael Correa - President of Ecuador

"You are always saddened by a death. But when you are talking about someone who has fought on the front line, and about someone who I remember I once called 'the most generous leader I have met', well the pain takes on a whole new dimension." Jose Mujica - President of Uruguay

Chavez "will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments.
We came to know a man who expressed a vision to bring profound changes to his country to benefit especially those people who had felt neglected and marginalised." Jimmy Carter - Fmr. President of the United States

"If we are moving towards peace it's due to the unlimited dedication of Chávez and the government of Venezuela," Juan Manuel Santos, President of Colombia

You can find nice things to say about everyone when they die. Did you think these leaders and former leaders would be saying bad things? Remember, they're politicans.

 

[irishpat183]

I believe it is called self-awareness. This explains why I disagree with you so often.

Great job summing up American arrogance.

Tell that to the Native Americans. The trail of tears and westward expansion was an 1800s version of a train to Auschwitz. This attitude that America is civilization's ultimate pinnacle is scary.

I have plenty of self-awareness...I'm awesome.


American arrogance? By belieive that the country I live in is the greatest in the world and that i have it pretty damn good? I can live with that.

Cackalacky (still an awesome name)....Key to that? IT WAS THE 1800's!!! I wish some people would get over that kinda sh*t already. Yes, we've done some terrible things...but those that committed those acts are LONG gone and nobody that you or I am related too can possibly have anything to do with it.

If you or others feel that bad....start cutting checks to some native americans and put your money where your guilt is.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Guys, it's not "the media" that's demonizing Chavez, although they certainly pile-on when it's newsworthy. This is stuff like, you know, Human Rights Watch:

Venezuela: Chávez’s Authoritarian Legacy | Human Rights Watch

One highlight:

In 2009, Chávez publicly called for the imprisonment of a judge for 30 years after she granted conditional liberty to a prominent government critic who had spent almost three years in prison awaiting trial. The judge, María Lourdes Afiuni, was arrested and spent more than a year in prison in pretrial detention, in deplorable conditions. She remains under house arrest.

Here's a funny one:

After the soap opera “Chepe Fortuna” ran a scene in January 2011 in which a character named Venezuela who had lost her dog – named Huguito (Little Hugo) – asks her boyfriend, “What will become of Venezuela without Huguito?” and he responds, “You will be free, Venezuela,” CONATEL called on the television channel, Televen, to “immediately suspend” the show on the grounds that it promoted “political and racial intolerance, xenophobia, and incitement to commit crimes.” The charge could lead to civil, criminal, and administrative sanctions, including the suspension or revocation of its license. Televen cancelled the program the same day.

(Note it's somewhat surprising that HRW would have such robust data, seeing as how Chavez had them detained and expelled since 2008.)

 

[Bogtrotter07]

How about rendition then?

(By the way, my family and I are not over English genocide of Ireland, and that was (partly) in the 1800's, too.)

 

[Cackalacky]

I have plenty of self-awareness...I'm awesome.


American arrogance? By belieive that the country I live in is the greatest in the world and that i have it pretty damn good? I can live with that.

Cackalacky (still an awesome name)....Key to that? IT WAS THE 1800's!!! I wish some people would get over that kinda sh*t already. Yes, we've done some terrible things...but those that committed those acts are LONG gone and nobody that you or I am related too can possibly have anything to do with it.

If you or others feel that bad....start cutting checks to some native americans and put your money where your guilt is.

Get over it? Your attitude is the same attitude that Americans in 1800s had. You don't get it. American arrogance will be the downfall of this country. It's not about getting over it , it's about learning from the past. Some people need to be reminded. We are not the pinnacle of civilization and we could learn a lot from other people but our arrogance blinds us. Your last few posts confirm this attitude is alive and well. BTW. My great grandmothers family was able to escape the Cherokee purge of the eastern band in the 1840s. We still have an oral tradition that was luckyily written down about them escaping into the mountains and hiding for years. On the other hand my great great great grandfather received 40 acres for every month he served in the Alabama militia fighting the Creeks during the Creek war as bounty land.

 

[PraetorianND]

Much like Obama here, Chavez is a polarizing figure in Venezuela. Many people in Venezuela think he is a national hero while others think he is a tyrant. He has violated human rights while also creating a ton of social programs to encourage literacy and health for poorer citizens (not commenting on the effectiveness of those programs).

His rhetoric and obvious disdain for America are part of the reason why he is so polarizing in his own country as well as internationally. Many see him as a patriot willing to stand up to the evil West, while other just seem him as a blowhard.

He has nationalized many Venezuelan industries, consolidated power, and become rich himself. I think his intent was to improve his country. Has he done that? Not exactly, the Venezuelan economy is unstable, human rights are bad (not as deplorable as many countries) and conditions and infrastructure have not really improved under his tenure.

Should Chavez be demonized for criticizing American policy? I don't think so. Should his rhetoric be respected? I don't think so. All in all he was a poor leader. The only reason he is really noteworthy is because of his willingness to criticize America and for his crazy way of doing it. There are much worse leaders currently in power who fly under the radar because they don't call our president the devil.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...My great grandmothers family was able to escape the Cherokee purge of the eastern band in the 1840s. ...On the other hand my great great great grandfather received 40 acres for every month he served in the Alabama militia fighting the Creeks during the Creek war as bounty land.

Pics or it didn't happen