George Zimmerman Trial

[GoIrish41]

"Chase" tends to mean running. There's no evidence he was running after TM. That's just an exaggeration. Walking? Yes. Following? Yes. Chasing? No.

Maybe the fatter Zimmerman of today would become out of breathe by walking behind someone, but the skinnier Zimmerman on that night was definately not walking during that call to the 911 operator.

Edit: Listen to how calm his voice is during the entire conversation and than at about the 2:20 mark you can tell he starts running by how his breath gets much heavier. He appears to be running for about 20 seconds or so until he gives up. View "Raw Audio - 911 Call - George Zimmerman" Audio at Mediaite.com

 

[Cackalacky]

Anybody got a gif of a dead horse getting beat?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Agenda!

Everybody that I've talked to that says Zimmerman is murderer and is sickened by the outcome of the case tend to fall in the follwing catogories-

1. Have a personal Agenda
2. Only know 50% or less about the case.
3. Black and refuse to side against there fellow race

I just have a hard time believing your intentions here Bogs. You've somehow presented a better argument than the prosecution in this case. This either means you have a lot more invested in this case then any non-Agenda pushing person should or you have an Agenda.

FIFY

 

[Cackalacky]

This looks like this may have been misconstrued due to editing.

Did George Zimmerman get away with murder? No. Juror B29 is being framed. - Slate Magazine

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vIconLG_9J0?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is the unedited video.

 

[irishpat183]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vIconLG_9J0?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is the unedited video.

^The media STILL reaching...Christ. Guilty of killing TM, not murder. I hope GZ wins a nice fat civil suit


A Few Questions for Those Upset by the Zimmerman Verdict (Updated)

 

[Rack Em]

My argument is neither for or against the guilt or innocence of GZ.

Those who say SYGL didn't affect the outcome of this case have a strong agenda.
...
But here we are being sold this bill of goods. Why? To increase gun sales. Oh yeah, and since we are unwilling to do the one thing that would be required to make this country a better safer place, let's get rid of the lower classes.

Bogs, I have to strongly disagree with you here. You act like the NRA is the Tobacco industry from the 60s. There is no secret agenda to get rid of the lower class. That's a contradictory argument because many of the red states that value the right to bear arms are comprised of lower class, rural populations. Come visit my neck of the woods in MO. It's very rural, not very affluent, pro-gun, and full of a lot of great people.

Jesus, Gandhi, King Jr., the list goes on, and on of those with brilliant minds that equate poverty with violence. If we transform not excuse, we can actually have something better. Instead some fatheads plan is to execute. I heard it. Let's kill more. On this site. It sickens me as much as the Htown woman who kills the man, takes pictures, and drives calmly away . . .

Doesn't this scare any of you?

Who said "let's kill more"? The only thing I've read are a number of posters advocating for the ability to protect oneself. Protecting one's self and one's family from an assailant is not the same as killing.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

No it was a synopsis. Note the lack of quotes and the header "Synopsis." I heard the entire interview. She said he "got away with murder" inferring he murdered TM, just not according to the law. Good grief......fuking pedants

Whoa. Take it easy. Was just sharing an article there sparky.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Maybe the fatter Zimmerman of today would become out of breathe by walking behind someone, but the skinnier Zimmerman on that night was definately not walking during that call to the 911 operator.

Edit: Listen to how calm his voice is during the entire conversation and than at about the 2:20 mark you can tell he starts running by how his breath gets much heavier. He appears to be running for about 20 seconds or so until he gives up. View "Raw Audio - 911 Call - George Zimmerman" Audio at Mediaite.com

He may have walked briskly for 20 seconds "and then given up", but I still wouldn't call that "chasing"...You can tell when someone's running on the phone -- the wind gets in the phone and you can barely hear them.

Not even TM himself said he was being "chased" by the cracka.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...But under SYGL which was the standard for self-defense in this legal case of his, he was not guilty. If it had been tried under pre-SYGL law he would have been found guilty...

Dude, you have to stop. This is wrong. Florida was not a Duty to Retreat state even before SYG was passed.

And even if it had been, which it wasn't, Zimmerman couldn't have retreated throught he bottom of the sidewalk, so it the "duty" wouldn't have applied in the Zimmerman case anyway.

All the relevant law was just posted today, on this thread: The Volokh Conspiracy » Florida’s Self-Defense Laws

In sum: there is not a shred of support for the claim that Florida law protects, or has protected Zimmerman, if he unlawfully attacked Martin. If Zimmerman’s story is true (Martin attacked him, putting him in imminent peril of grave bodily injury, with no opportunity to retreat), then Zimmerman’s self-defense claim would be valid under the laws of Florida, New York, or any other Anglo-American jurisdiction. The particular legal changes resulting from Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” and “Castle Doctrine” laws (deadly force in the home/automobile; no duty to retreat in public places; Fourth Amendment arrest standard affirmation; protection from civil suits) simply have nothing to do with whether Zimmerman’s actions were or were not lawful.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Bogs, I have to strongly disagree with you here. You act like the NRA is the Tobacco industry from the 60s. There is no secret agenda to get rid of the lower class. That's a contradictory argument because many of the red states that value the right to bear arms are comprised of lower class, rural populations. Come visit my neck of the woods in MO. It's very rural, not very affluent, pro-gun, and full of a lot of great people.

Who said "let's kill more"? The only thing I've read are a number of posters advocating for the ability to protect oneself. Protecting one's self and one's family from an assailant is not the same as killing.

I know exactly what you are saying. There is this old beat up house out away from the area we live. The area used to be called dog-patch. It is also know as Spencer Township. Anyway, this one house, didn't even have complete windows in the walls, had a couple of junkers in the yard, etc. In 2000 it had a "W" sign in the yard, one of the big ones. I noted that under things that make you go, "hmmmm!"

So the years were even less kind to that place and in 2004 I noticed another "W" sign in the yard. I stopped and talked to the guy one time, before the election. This guy actually lost a bit of money in the S & L crisis of the 80's and was fired from a job because the company lost it's union protection. But he had many religious and historical reasons for voting Republican. And in '08 sure enough the McCain sign was out. The point is, I am not disagreeing with anything he or you say. These kind of salt of the earth people are the foot soldiers of the wealthy. They are exactly where the elite turns when they want to get something pushed through.

And these people are the ones that receive the least, in terms of remuneration and respect for their loyalty. Colt 45 isn't aimed at me. Neither is high fructose corn syrup goodies like Jimmy Dean fried sausage, wrapped in chocolate-chip pancakes on a stick. Tobacco road stays away from my doorstep now and for the last fifty years. But this gun thing, bullets travel in oft times random and precipitous fashion. Time will tell if I am wrong or if I am right. But what is worth the price of tabling this debate? One innocent life. A thousand? Or does it need to be fifty-thousand? I have heard people in this thread advocate justifiable homicide, as a means of prison population reduction; justice out drinking, so to speak. But these people must never have heard of the Dixmoor 5.

 

[Woneone]

Can I say this again? GZ acted the way he did because he was a colossal dumb shiit. SYGL had nothing to do with that. If someone would say he didn't understand SYGL, I would believe that too. Because it SEEMED like he was crafting his story around the old self-defense law.

But under SYGL which was the standard for self-defense in this legal case of his, he was not guilty. If it had been tried under pre-SYGL law he would have been found guilty. My persistence on this isn't for the GZ-Barney Fife's of the world. It is for those who see this tremendously flawed law and craft crimes attempting to get away with murder (1 group), and those that sense that the law is relaxed and are less inhibited to carry, draw, and use there weapons (group 2). It is with this second group that people may not even have self defense situations, but guess what? They are in an argument, and they have a gun handy. Stats show that shootings and even suicides by gun go up when a gun is present.

A good example of how you could handle all of this under SYG is how cops do.

If there is a weapon discharge, a hearing would be scheduled. Shoot and runs would routinely be a thing of the past, like with cars, guns have unique characteristics that can be traced for identification.

Prior to the hearing answer, did the shooting result in a death? And was the shooter trained and properly registered?

The hearing determines any self defense issue.

Penalties occur for any discharge from a nominal fine or short jail-term in the event of non-lethal, properly registered self-defense to longer sentences for unjustified shootings for untrained individuals. The numbers of gun deaths would plummet, and most of those killed would be perps. I would pay a thousand dollars gladly if I was in a position where I shot a would be rapist of one of my daughters, if it stopped that rape.

But few are interested in making gun deaths a thing of the past.

Bogs,

I still disagree with your premise that under the old law he'd be found guilty (and cited Law Professors and Lawyers blogs stating as such), but this is by far, in my opinion, your best post on the subject.

Is SYG perfect? No. Is it a good law? It "could" be. Could there be a better way in determining a situation resolved in self-defense? There has to be.

My problem with this whole circus is that SYG is being drug through the ringer because of the GZ case, when it doesn't apply. Pre SYG would have had the same outcome (this hinging on whether you believe his story). He had no avenue of retreat, therefore the standard for using the force he applied was, in the eyes of the law in regards to his account, justified.

If you want to see what SYG can lead to, look no further, as you've cited before, the HTown lady and shooting that guy. I'm sure we could have an entire thread on that as well.

The problem is, where's the middle? Where can you protect innocent people defending themselves, yet keep the crazies of the world from hiding behind an imperfect law?

There is no perfect answer. You're right, I don't want to have to worry about some altercation I get in, that person having no fear of using deadly force because he uses SYG as a shield, but at the same time, if I'm ever put in a position where I TRUELY fear for my life, I don't want to be put on trial because someone didn't believe me when I had no other recourse.

 

[Cackalacky]

Whoa. Take it easy. Was just sharing an article there sparky.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Dude, you have to stop. This is wrong. Florida was not a Duty to Retreat state even before SYG was passed.

And even if it had been, which it wasn't, Zimmerman couldn't have retreated throught he bottom of the sidewalk, so it the "duty" wouldn't have applied in the Zimmerman case anyway.

All the relevant law was just posted today, on this thread: The Volokh Conspiracy » Florida’s Self-Defense Laws

I gave you the "thread of proof" and if you would have read the jury instructions from before the SYGL as well as what his jury saw, you could stop, just stop the whole nonsensical rap.

 

[GoIrish41]

He may have walked briskly for 20 seconds "and then given up", but I still wouldn't call that "chasing"...You can tell when someone's running on the phone -- the wind gets in the phone and you can barely hear them.

Not even TM himself said he was being "chased" by the cracka.

How could he? He was dead?

So he was walking, following, but not chasing? Now he is walking briskly. What word do we have to use before moving faster and faster toward a target is chasing? Just curious. Can we agree that he was in pursuit of Martin? If so, lets look up the word pursue in the dictionary. Here, it is:" To follow (someone or something) in order to catch or attack them."

And, if it was the wind in the phone, it seemed to stop pretty abruptly and Zimmerman never went back to his vehicle. Did it just stop? We can play the semantic game all day, but he was clearly chasing him.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Bogs,

I still disagree with your premise that under the old law he'd be found guilty (and cited Law Professors and Lawyers blogs stating as such), but this is by far, in my opinion, your best post on the subject.

Is SYG perfect? No. Is it a good law? It "could" be. Could there be a better way in determining a situation resolved in self-defense? There has to be.

My problem with this whole circus is that SYG is being drug through the ringer because of the GZ case, when it doesn't apply. Pre SYG would have had the same outcome (this hinging on whether you believe his story). He had no avenue of retreat, therefore the standard for using the force he applied was, in the eyes of the law in regards to his account, justified.

If you want to see what SYG can lead to, look no further, as you've cited before, the HTown lady and shooting that guy. I'm sure we could have an entire thread on that as well.

The problem is, where's the middle? Where can you protect innocent people defending themselves, yet keep the crazies of the world from hiding behind an imperfect law?

There is no perfect answer. You're right, I don't want to have to worry about some altercation I get in, that person having no fear of using deadly force because he uses SYG as a shield, but at the same time, if I'm ever put in a position where I TRUELY fear for my life, I don't want to be put on trial because someone didn't believe me when I had no other recourse.

I am not necessarily against the law. And I am concerned for YOUR life in said situation, too. And Pat and Houston's, etc. Take it from me, it isn't like the movies or TV, you don't have the luxury of seeing the one coming, most of the time. I want enforcement, and follow-up better regulated, so it has a deterrent affect on gun deaths.

As I stated I think race and other things were thrown out to disguise shortcomings in current law. Lets just fvcking fix the law!

(And for some that comes down to whether they want to see dead people or safety. Because I think you can have your guns and lower murder rates, too!)

Woneone, I read through your whole post and I agree with almost everything, even the wording. My one question, do you think the anti-SYGL bad guys made a circus of this thing or the pro SYGL folks, including prosecutors did it, or both?

 

[Irish Houstonian]

How could he. He was dead?

Seriously dude? He said to Jeantel he was being "followed". Not "chased".

 

[GoIrish41]

Seriously dude? He said to Jeantel he was being "followed". Not "chased".

I added an edit to my post while you were responding. Look up a couple posts.

 

[EddytoNow]

"Chase" tends to mean running. There's no evidence he was running after TM. That's just an exaggeration. Walking? Yes. Following? Yes. Chasing? No.

My point exactly. The evidence points to the fact that GZ was following TM to maintain eye contact so TM wouldn't slip away before the police arrived. Chasing him down implies that GZ was running after TM with the intent of physically stopping his escape. If TM was fleeing and GZ was chasing him, there is no way GZ would have caught up to him. TM was a healthy 17-year old. GZ was in no physical condition to chase down TM or any other healthy teenage male.

 

[Booslum31]

Saw this was getting bumped and thought something new had happened. I think GZ was found to be not guilty of any wrong doing. Our Judicial system is not perfect but still arguably the best in the world. It's fun to watch the major news outlets are trying to keep this going. A rev'ed up base is a voting base. This is ALL politics. Maybe they can keep it up all the way to the mid-term election. Cuz you know...we have a runaway vigilantly problem (white on black) in this country. For instance...It happened like once. At least there isn't anybody else being uselessly killed EVERYDAY. Still waiting for someone to be brave enough to tackle the real issues instead of rolling around in this horse ****. Ahhhh...feel a tiny bitbetter now.

 

[kmoose]

I simply don't believe Zimmerman's story because, in my opinion, it makes no sense whatsoever.

If you cannot even fathom Zimmerman's story being true, despite the overwhelming evidence that points to TM as being a wannabe gangster, then you must have some kind of bias that blinds you.

 

[DCIrish]

If you cannot even fathom Zimmerman's story being true, despite the overwhelming evidence that points to TM as being a wannabe gangster, then you must have some kind of bias that blinds you.

GZ was a stupid wannabe cop who should have stayed in his car. He didn't break any law, but no fight happens if he stays in his car.

 

[kmoose]

GZ was a stupid wannabe cop who should have stayed in his car. He didn't break any law, but no fight happens if he stays in his car.

TM was an ignorant wannabe gang-banger who got killed because he wasn't about to let some "creepy a$$ cracker" follow him around.


See how easy it is, to just make $hit up?

 

[DCIrish]

TM was an ignorant wannabe gang-banger who got killed because he wasn't about to let some "creepy a$$ cracker" follow him around.


See how easy it is, to just make $hit up?

Him getting out of his car when he didn't have to is a fact, that's not making anything up. The people who think GZ didn't do anything wrong to put himself in that position are dumba$$es just like him.

 

[kmoose]

Him getting out of his car when he didn't have to is a fact, that's not making anything up. The people who think GZ didn't do anything wrong to put himself in that position are dumba$$es just like him.

And the people who think TM was just a scared kid, afraid of the big, bad Zimmerman, are ignorant punks, just like him.


Zimmerman didn't HAVE to get out of the car, you are right. But what about Zimmerman's rights? He doesn't have the right to walk around his neighborhood at night, without some pseudo gangbanger jumping him?

 

[DCIrish]

And the people who think TM was just a scared kid, afraid of the big, bad Zimmerman, are ignorant punks, just like him.


Zimmerman didn't HAVE to get out of the car, you are right. But what about Zimmerman's rights? He doesn't have the right to walk around his neighborhood at night, without some pseudo gangbanger jumping him?

I feel like both of them could have handled the situation better and because they didn't it led to a kid losing his life. I just don't agree with the ones who think that GZ was not responsible for any of this. If I'm carrying a gun I'm doing everything possible to avoid a confrontation.

 

[kmoose]

I feel like both of them could have handled the situation better and because they didn't it led to a kid losing his life. I just don't agree with the ones who think that GZ was not responsible for any of this. If I'm carrying a gun I'm doing everything possible to avoid a confrontation.

I would tend to agree with this. Except (and I'm not saying that you are implying this) that I would NOT agree that Zimmerman simply following TM makes him responsible for TM's death.

 

[Booslum31]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/L9s900vZr_k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Embedded

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this video are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of Golden_Domer [/QUOTE

This guy portrays Travon in a different light. Did he really get put out by his mom and kicked out of school? Or did this guy get loosie goosie with the facts. Gosh, I think he even refers to him as a thug. Seems kind of harsh.

 

[Irish Insanity]

chase [ chayss ]
pursue somebody: to follow somebody quickly in order to catch him or her

chase1 [cheys] Show IPA verb, chased, chas·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to pursue in order to seize, overtake, etc.: The police officer chased the thief.
2.
to pursue with intent to capture or kill, as game; hunt: to chase deer.

I looked up 'chase' in several places and didn't see running as a reference in any of them.

 

[connor_in]

Isn't it great how we can disagree (sometimes vehemently) about all thing political/social/economic/etc but when football starts we all love ND and support them and disagree (sometimes vehemently) about who should play/what we should do/what we should have done/etc?

 

[GoldenDomer87]

I wish the country would get this involved when the government let 4 Americans die in Libya.