George Zimmerman Trial

[woolybug25]

This is true, but no reasonable person believes this and that is why the prosecution isn't pushing this angle at all. Martin had plenty of options.

1. Continue walking home.
2. Call the cops.
3. Respond to Zimmerman with words if Zimmerman wasn't acting aggressively when they met face-to-face.

Only a fool would actually believe he was backed into a corner where he had no other option than to confront and assault Zimmerman. Hell, Rachel even said on the stand she encouraged him to just keep going home and he ignored her.

That is why they have already put a large onus on the timeline before the actual assault. They want to know if TM had reasonable options above altercation that were available under the conditions. That is subjective, there are facts to be weighed, and why there is a jury.

If TM felt he couldn't escape, that makes point 1 not an option. If it was reasonable to call his girlfriend first and simply didn't have the time to make another call before the altercation then point 2 is not an option. They will also try to decide what was said or heard before the altercation to decide on point three. These facts all need to be known.

 

[woolybug25]

What's a friend gonna do though?
All he had to do was dial 911 say I'm a 17 year old minor and I have this creepy dude following me.
Zimmerman gets picked up more than likely gets released maybe not.

If TM was anything like I was at 17 though he thought he was a world beater and said F it I'm gonna teach this guy a lesson.

Not saying that's how he thought just how most young males in my experience do.

That's easy for us to say. But i'm not sure that if I was being followed that the first person I would call would be 911. No one is trying to make the argument that TM made the best choice, but rather if the choices that were made were reasonable.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

What's a friend gonna do though?
All he had to do was dial 911 say I'm a 17 year old minor and I have this creepy dude following me.
Zimmerman gets picked up more than likely gets released maybe not.

If TM was anything like I was at 17 though he thought he was a world beater and said F it I'm gonna teach this guy a lesson.

Not saying that's how he thought just how most young males in my experience do.

So TM should have had the mind to call the cops and let them do their jobs while he was being chased(he should have) but GZ is ok because he was just following him, after being told by police dispatch to stop.

 

[jmurphy75]

A little FYI this incident might not have been racially created but it is expected to have racial repercussions. I was informed today that my fuel trucks that are currently fueling all of the media generators should not be present on or after the verdict date due to expected riots.

 

[woolybug25]

The "reasonableness" of pursuing Martin is not relevant at all to whether Zimmerman was acting in self defense when he killed Martin. Why? BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING REMOTELY ILLEGAL ABOUT FOLLOWING SOMEONE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD. This has been explained countless times.



NO I AM NOT! Jesus ****ing christ dude... this is why we have the word IF in the English language.

I said IF Zimmerman didn't do anything but follow him THEN Martin did not have any right whatsoever to "defend" himself.

And I also said IF Zimmerman did more (i.e. verbally threaten him, brandish a weapon, etc.) THEN Martin had every right to assault Zimmerman and Zimmerman cannot claim self defense.

This really isn't hard.

Chill dude. I didn't say that following him was illegal and reasonable and prudent behavior is almost always relevant in the court of law.

Bottom line though... i'm not gonna chat with you if you are gonna get this defensive about this. It's fair that this thread was made for discussion on the topic of the case, right? I didn't start posting in this thread so I can get in some big internet fight. Just wanted to discuss the case with other points of view in a reasonable manner. If you feel like my responses are that idiotic then I will just chat with the other posters and you can do the same. Not into this type of dialogue on this site anymore. Just not gonna do it.

 

[IrishLax]

If TM felt he couldn't escape, that makes point 1 not an option. If it was reasonable to call his girlfriend first and simply didn't have the time to make another call before the altercation then point 2 is not an option. They will also try to decide what was said or heard before the altercation to decide on point three. These facts all need to be known.

Frankly, this is a good point, but if and only if Zimmerman basically rode up on Martin. If that happened, I agree with everything you said. If he was following Martin at any kind of relative distance than option 1 was always an option... he could've kept walking unimpeded. I don't know if we know how exactly that initial meeting went down yet, do we? We know he tried to evade Zimmerman and Zimmerman "pursued"... any testimony from an eye witness on how they first met face to face? I guess we'll get Zimmerman's version of events eventually...

Also, option 3 stays on the table unless Zimmerman was acting hostile. We don't know if he approached him running hot or totally level headed. And we'll probably never know that because we'll only get his side.

 

[woolybug25]

A little FYI this incident might not have been racially created but it is expected to have racial repercussions. I was informed today that my fuel trucks that are currently fueling all of the media generators should not be present on or after the verdict date due to expected riots.

At first I thought that it would just be a big deal if GZ was found innocent, but I have a feeling that the media will have plenty of time to spin a good frenzy out of any outcome. It's gonna be ugly I fear.

 

[jmurphy75]

At first I thought that it would just be a big deal if GZ was found innocent, but I have a feeling that the media will have plenty of time to spin a good frenzy out of any outcome. It's gonna be ugly I fear.

I think Jesse and Al will both be back stirring the pot as well

 

[woolybug25]

I think Jesse and Al will both be back stirring the pot as well

I'de bet every vbuck I have that they will be in full force. No doubt.

 

[IrishLax]

Bottom line though... i'm not gonna chat with you if you are gonna get this defensive about this. It's fair that this thread was made for discussion on the topic of the case, right? I didn't start posting in this thread so I can get in some big internet fight. Just wanted to discuss the case with other points of view in a reasonable manner. If you feel like my responses are that idiotic then I will just chat with the other posters and you can do the same. Not into this type of dialogue on this site anymore. Just not gonna do it.

That response wasn't to you at all. I quoted no.1IrishFan. And I only got BIG CAPS because he keeps twisting what I'm saying severely so I thought I needed to be emphatic.

Frankly, I have my juices flowing though on this case because I watched god knows how many straight hours today while working from home. I think it's fascinating and I think the decision could go either way. So sorry if the rhetoric is bothersome... at the same time, it's 1 AM and I'm more than a couple beers deep on a Friday night... so it kinda comes with the territory.

 

[woolybug25]

That response wasn't to you at all. I quoted no.1IrishFan. And I only got BIG CAPS because he keeps twisting what I'm saying severely so I thought I needed to be emphatic.

Frankly, I have my juices flowing though on this case because I watched god knows how many straight hours today while working from home. I think it's fascinating and I think the decision could go either way. So sorry if the rhetoric is bothersome... at the same time, it's 1 AM and I'm more than a couple beers deep on a Friday night... so it kinda comes with the territory.

I feel ya. After I wrote that, I looked at my beer bottle and wondered if it was time to slow down for the night. ha.

No worries, dude. I was just being a bit too sensitive.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm drunk so I apologize if I come off as an ******* here but the bottom line is that Lax is talking about the law and most of the rest of you are talking about something else. Florida law is clear. It's not appropriate to physically attack someone even if you are followed except under extremely limited circumstances not applicable here. The person who initiates the physical contact is considered the initial aggressor and that's the bottom line. I could call your mother a jiveturkey and you still wouldn't be justified legally to hit me.

The only question in this case is who initiated the physical contact. All the evidence I've seen says it was Martin. GZ seems like a dick and it sucks that a young kid died but GZ is innocent in the eyes of the law and it really doesn't matter what anyone would have done in his position. It makes me sick that the media has crucified this guy and he will probably be found guilty.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

That response wasn't to you at all. I quoted no.1IrishFan. And I only got BIG CAPS because he keeps twisting what I'm saying severely so I thought I needed to be emphatic.

Frankly, I have my juices flowing though on this case because I watched god knows how many straight hours today while working from home. I think it's fascinating and I think the decision could go either way. So sorry if the rhetoric is bothersome... at the same time, it's 1 AM and I'm more than a couple beers deep on a Friday night... so it kinda comes with the territory.

I'm not trying to twist your words, you just seem to think that there are a set of ironclad circumstances that must arise first before someone can have reasonable fear for their life and defend themself. For some people that may be being chased through the neighborhood at night. I also don't agree that if TM was defending himself because he feared for his life that GZ then has the option to shoot him because now he fears for HIS life. It doesn't work that way when GZ was clearly the one causing TM to respond in the first place. Given all the poor decisions GZ made leading up to the confrontation, I have a hard time believing that he didn't in some way become physical first. If TM wanted a fight he wouldn't have been trying to get away.

Edit: After going back and reading thru our conversation I realize that most of your responses are because I didn't say that I feel GZ got physical first. I don't think after chasing down TM that GZ wasn't extremely upset and at the very least tried to physically stop him. Should have made that clearer in my posts. Someone simply following you is not a reason to defend yourself, I know that. I just don't feel that that's all that happened.

 

[GoIrish41]

Martin could have been straddling his neck/upper chest area, pinning Zimmerman's shoulders underneath his body. If so, Zimmerman's arms would have been next to his body, underneath Martin and unobstructed by Martin's legs. Sure, the range of motion would have been limited but his lower arms (elbows to wrists) and hands would have been completely free to grab the gun.

that would make it even more difficult for him, once he had the gun in hand, to bring the gun up through Martin's leg around his body and shoot him in the chest. No matter at what part of body Martin was supposedly straddling Zimmerman, the entirety of his story is difficult to believe. It makes me think that the gun was already out, which changes a lot about the chain of events.

 

[jmurphy75]

that would make it even more difficult for him, once he had the gun in hand, to bring the gun up through Martin's leg around his body and shoot him in the chest. No matter at what part of body Martin was supposedly straddling Zimmerman, the entirety of his story is difficult to believe. It makes me think that the gun was already out, which changes a lot about the chain of events.

I guess you never carried a gun, the only way the scenario is even possible is if the gun was holstered and brought out while on the bottom. It would have to be pulled from the holster while being straddled, leaving the center mass of TM vulnerable.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I personally feel he wrongfully and unnecessarily took someones life. But the huge separation of opinions in this thread are probably a small sample of the public as a whole, and the jurors as well. I don't think he'll be found guilty, unless there is some important evidence not presented yet. There are always 3 sides to the story. TM isn't here to tell his.

 

[Golden_Domer]

Has anyone seen this video of Zimmerman reenacting the night of the incident? If this story is true, then it seems to me Zimmerman did nothing wrong.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PX1sxARNq_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[GoIrish41]

I guess you never carried a gun, the only way the scenario is even possible is if the gun was holstered and brought out while on the bottom. It would have to be pulled from the holster while being straddled, leaving the center mass of TM vulnerable.

I can picture the scene and the positioning of Martin in my mind one of 3 ways

1. Martin was sitting on Zimmerman's chest with one or both arms pinned under his legs, which would have made it a bit easier for Z to pull the gun out and but, because Martin's leg would have been restricting his movement, exceedingly difficult for him to bring the around to the front of Martin's body to have achieved a shot to the chest

2. Martin was sitting on Zimmerman's neck with his arms free in back of Martin, which would make it fairly easy for Z to reach his gun but very difficult to bring it around to shoot M in the chest

3. Martin was sitting on Zimmerman's belly with his arms free above Martin's legs, which would have made it nearly impossible for Z to pull the gun from the holster. It would also seem that if his hands were free he would be using them to protect himself from the string of blows that was coming down upon him. If he did get to the gun, it might have been a little easier to bring the gun around, but getting the gun seems like it would be the problem in this position.

No matter where Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman, Martin was in the dominant position and, according to Zimmerman's testimony going after the gun (which seems improbable if he was at the same time "raining down blows" ground and pound style on his face. If Martin indeed knew about the gun as Zimmerman suggested, you would think he would do everything in his power to keep Zimmerman's hand away from it (and all while in the dominant position to ensure this happened). I'm not arguing that Martin's chest wasn't an easy target, I'm arguing that it would have been exceedingly difficult for Z to A) get tot he gun and B) maneuver it into a position where he could shoot that target where it was actually hit.

 

[GoIrish41]

Has anyone seen this video of Zimmerman reenacting the night of the incident? If this story is true, then it seems to me Zimmerman did nothing wrong.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PX1sxARNq_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

can't see the video in your post

 

[GoIrish41]

I guess you never carried a gun, the only way the scenario is even possible is if the gun was holstered and brought out while on the bottom. It would have to be pulled from the holster while being straddled, leaving the center mass of TM vulnerable.

just re-read what you said closer. I think Zimmerman's statement did say that the brought out the gun because Martin was on top of him punching him/slamming his head into the sidewalk while he was on the bottom. That is my whole point -- I think it is entirely possible that the gun was out early -- perhaps even early enough to make Martin fear for his life and start an altercation, which would destroy Zimmerman's self defense claim.

 

[drayer54]

Has anyone seen this video of Zimmerman reenacting the night of the incident? If this story is true, then it seems to me Zimmerman did nothing wrong.

Now compare the video to the testimony of the neighbor. The neighbor corroborated the story of Zimmerman. It matches. It makes sense. He identified TM as the guy on top and GZ as the one calling for help. He isn't a friend with emotional ties like the friend or family of TM.

I feel like most of the people who want to pin this on GZ are doing so because of the big picture where he pursues a teenager with a gun and think it is his responsibility in the end. However, with the burden of proof falling on the prosecution and the law as written only supports the defense. The prosecution has to convince people who are likely as divided as we are that this wasn't self defense and I think it's a longshot at this point.

 

[GoIrish41]

Has anyone seen this video of Zimmerman reenacting the night of the incident? If this story is true, then it seems to me Zimmerman did nothing wrong.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PX1sxARNq_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

looked it up on line under this link:

George Zimmerman trial evidence:: Defendant's reenactment | News - Home

the write-up under the video on my link does briefly mention the point I was trying to make about how difficult it would have been for Zimmerman to get to his gun with Martin on top of him.

 

[IrishLax]

I feel ya. After I wrote that, I looked at my beer bottle and wondered if it was time to slow down for the night. ha.

No worries, dude. I was just being a bit too sensitive.

We cool homie.

 

[ND NYC]

The chase doesn't matter. I've explained why.

unless your the one being chased...

 

[drayer54]

unless your the one being chased...

No. No. No.

He can confront the person coming up behind him. He can ask him what he is doing. He can even call him a creepy *** cracker to his face. However, he can't attack him. That is what is being determined in this trial.

 

[Booslum31]

No. No. No.

He can confront the person coming up behind him. He can ask him what he is doing. He can even call him a creepy *** cracker to his face. However, he can't attack him. That is what is being determined in this trial.

Exactly

 

[pkt77242]

No. No. No.

He can confront the person coming up behind him. He can ask him what he is doing. He can even call him a creepy *** cracker to his face. However, he can't attack him. That is what is being determined in this trial.

Why is everyone assuming that TM attacked GZ? Yes we know that TM was on top of GZ when the gun was fired but that in no way means that he was the aggressor and started the fight. What if GZ starts the fight and TM just whoops his *** and then GZ shoots him. Besides GZ, who has stated that TM was the aggressor?

 

[jmurphy75]

just re-read what you said closer. I think Zimmerman's statement did say that the brought out the gun because Martin was on top of him punching him/slamming his head into the sidewalk while he was on the bottom. That is my whole point -- I think it is entirely possible that the gun was out early -- perhaps even early enough to make Martin fear for his life and start an altercation, which would destroy Zimmerman's self defense claim.

Again, you are assuming and imagining an aweful lot. Do you know where Z had his weapon holstered? Front? side? if it was on the side did it move to the front in the struggle? If TM was on top it makes it much easier to pull from your waste and bring the gun up 12 inches and fire. The other scenario that you are suggesting is not likely GZ having the weapon out while TM was on top GZ would then have to get it inside of TM's arms. Also if the gun was already out you can bet TM would have been concentrating on the gun and not throwing punches or slamming GZs head.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I watched the whole tape. Here you have a block watch guy that was going for groceries, who didn't know what street he was on in his own neighborhood who lost sight of the subject, after he was told not to follow him and he followed him into a dark area, and continued to do that even after his flashlight didn't work, (need them mf'in batteries); why?

To get a street number from a house in effect two blocks away. Why is this bull shiit? Granted the houses to the left of his path were backs with no numbers, but to the right of that house were the '1460' and '1440' numbers respectively that the police officer read as he drove up. The only thing that didn't happen in this story is the barrel of GZ's gun fall off to save us all this trial! Who with half a brain would get out to walk two blocks through the dark and rain to the next street over when he could have moved seven steps to his right and read the number off the front porch! Give me a break.

That first cop should be busted. AND back to my point from yesterday, and the day before. Why didn't he get the address as he headed back, and stay in his truck, with his gun drawn until the police got there. To be jumped in the dark by someone less than five steps away from you, just use your heads, use Occam's razor, the improbability of anyone walking or running into the dark without drawing his gun, a chest wound and the body found face down with arms under the body?

Why is everyone assuming that TM attacked GZ? Yes we know that TM was on top of GZ when the gun was fired but that in no way means that he was the aggressor and started the fight. What if GZ starts the fight and TM just whoops his *** and then GZ shoots him. Besides GZ, who has stated that TM was the aggressor?

No one! Not even Goode, the man who testified that he saw TM on top of GZ, and has now clearly recanted (if he ever even said) describing TM as throwing blows.

Something else that bothered me, all the Band-Aids GZ had all over everything. Listen to the PA's testimony again. GZ put all those patches on. Anyone ever break a nose? How does it feel to put a patch like that over a freshly broken nose?

The bull shiit meter shows tilt on this one!

 

[IrishLax]

Why is everyone assuming that TM attacked GZ? Yes we know that TM was on top of GZ when the gun was fired but that in no way means that he was the aggressor and started the fight. What if GZ starts the fight and TM just whoops his *** and then GZ shoots him. Besides GZ, who has stated that TM was the aggressor?

Who is assuming that? Re-read the post you just quoted... look at the last sentence. The circular debate over the last couple pages has been about if TM attacked GZ would it have been justified.

I and others have said "no" because being followed is not just cause for assault. Others have said "yes" because TM felt threatened.

The simple fact is that GZ will say he was attacked by TM; TM is dead and cannot give his side; and no witnesses observed the onset of the fight and then conflict about who was on top. So we will never know conclusively either way.

In the end, I think it simply comes down to the plausibility of Zimmerman's story and whether the jury buys it. I really wouldn't be surprised by any outcome to this case with only 6 jurors and all females.