George Zimmerman Trial

[IrishLax]

An attorney for Martin’s family, meanwhile, suddenly declared Thursday that the high-profile case was not about race.
“It’s not about racial profiling,” Daryl Parks told reporters. “He was profiled (criminally). George Zimmerman profiled him.”
Parks made the comments after prosecutors spent several days arguing that Zimmerman profiled the 17-year-old specifically because he was black. Asked why he changed his take on the matter, Parks replied: “We never claimed this was about race.”


Witness to Zimmerman-Martin confrontation says person on bottom had "lighter skin color" | Fox News

What a joke.

 

[IrishLax]

Is this trial being shown on TV anywhere? Working from home today.

 

[GoIrish41]

Is this trial being shown on TV anywhere? Working from home today.

Pretty sure it is. Do you get Court TV? That would be where I would start. Some of the other news networks may also be running the feed.

 

[TDHeysus]

just to fan the flames in this thread....because obviously it needs it.

my assumptions of TM are based on my life experiences; i used to live in a bad apartment complex in a not so great part of town. This is the type of place where you see 15-19 year olds 'hangin-out' and doing 'dumb ****'. In this apartment complex, over the course of 4 years I had my truck broke into 3 times, and my clothes stolen out of the laundry room twice. I boiled it down to there was alot of ppl in that aparment complex that had no guidance, nothing to do, didnt have anything of their own, and therefore couldnt respect anyone else that 'had something'. the last straw was when i caught, in the middle of the day (1pm), 2 thugs attempting to break into my apartment. (me and my basbell bat stopped that in short order)

I place TM between the ppl that broke into cars and stole my clothes, and the ppl that tried to break into my apartment.

Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

 

[BGIF]

Is this trial being shown on TV anywhere? Working from home today.

Don't know. Most likely being HLN. I believe it is being streamed live. Try a search engine.

 

[FLDomer]

Is this trial being shown on TV anywhere? Working from home today.

try streaming it on channel 9 news orlando, 13 orlando or wesh2 orlando

 

[GoIrish41]

Could be either guy really. Could have been TM screaming and then was silenced, or it could be Zimmerman realizing the situation is over. I'm not defending either case here, just playing devil's advocate.

^ Agree with ulukinatme. The prosecution keeps saying this, but if this is their strongest argument, it's going to be a tough row to hoe.

It cuts both ways -- you would probably stop screaming if you got shot (although not necessarily), but you would also stop screaming if you shot your attacker and they just slumped over on you.

I think most of the Prosecution's case centers around the claim that the screaming on the 911 call is Martin, and without their "experts" they have to keep repeating this argument as if it's air-tight. But it's not -- I mean, it's not a bad argument, but there's certainly reasonable doubt.

I thought the same thing, but when I heard the other things pieced together that I mentioned in my post, it wasn't as easy to dismiss. If we are to believe Zimmerman's statements, he believed the confrontation was still going on. Would his pleas for help have ended if this was the case? According to him, he jumped on Martin's body after the gunshot because he didn't think he hit him and that he simply startled him with the loud noise. So in his mind, then, he was still fighting for his life even after the gunshot was fired. If you listen to the tape, the shots are fired and the screaming ends instantaneously. That should at least create a considerable question in anyone's mind as to Zimmerman's take on what happened, no?

 

[GoIrish41]

just to fan the flames in this thread....because obviously it needs it.

my assumptions of TM are based on my life experiences; i used to live in a bad apartment complex in a not so great part of town. This is the type of place where you see 15-19 year olds 'hangin-out' and doing 'dumb ****'. In this apartment complex, over the course of 4 years I had my truck broke into 3 times, and my clothes stolen out of the laundry room twice. I boiled it down to there was alot of ppl in that aparment complex that had no guidance, nothing to do, didnt have anything of their own, and therefore couldnt respect anyone else that 'had something'. the last straw was when i caught, in the middle of the day (1pm), 2 thugs attempting to break into my apartment. (me and my basbell bat stopped that in short order)

I place TM between the ppl that broke into cars and stole my clothes, and the ppl that tried to break into my apartment.
Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

why? Martin was walking down the street talking on the phone. He didn't break into anyone's house, steal anyone's laundry, and he wasn't breaking into anyone's car. In what way does your personal experience make Martin fit into the category you just put him in?

 

[IrishLax]

just to fan the flames in this thread....because obviously it needs it.

my assumptions of TM are based on my life experiences; i used to live in a bad apartment complex in a not so great part of town. This is the type of place where you see 15-19 year olds 'hangin-out' and doing 'dumb ****'. In this apartment complex, over the course of 4 years I had my truck broke into 3 times, and my clothes stolen out of the laundry room twice. I boiled it down to there was alot of ppl in that aparment complex that had no guidance, nothing to do, didnt have anything of their own, and therefore couldnt respect anyone else that 'had something'. the last straw was when i caught, in the middle of the day (1pm), 2 thugs attempting to break into my apartment. (me and my basbell bat stopped that in short order)

I place TM between the ppl that broke into cars and stole my clothes, and the ppl that tried to break into my apartment.

Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

why? Martin was walking down the street talking on the phone. He didn't break into anyone's house, steal anyone's laundry, and he wasn't breaking into anyone's house. In what way does your personal experience make Martin fit into the category you just put him in?

See, this is what intrigues me so much about this trial. Every single person I've talked to has an opinion largely influenced by personal experiences (myself included). Every single African American I've talked to at work and elsewhere thinks he's guilty. Every anti-gun person I've talked to thinks he's guilty. Almost every gun owner I've talked to thinks he's innocent.

I think he's innocent (by letter of the law only) in large part because I can't picture Zimmerman following Martin, assaulting him first, having control of the fight, and then shooting him. Why? Because PERSONALLY I can't see someone who calls 911 going out to follow someone with the intent of murdering them. Just doesn't make sense to me because it's not something I would do. I could totally see myself following a suspicious character in my neighborhood, having him turn around to confront me, and then in a fight using my gun. So all my opinions are based on personal prejudice and who I relate to in the conflict... because there simply isn't enough evidence one way or another. As a "juror" I have to choose which version of events I believe with either being possible.

I think the lack of men on the jury more than anything might be what dooms Zimmerman because I think women will relate more to Martin as their kid than to Zimmerman in any way. It will be interesting to see. But no matter what way you try to slice it, there simply isn't conclusive evidence one way or another as its being presented right now... and to me that screams "reasonable doubt." It's also strange that character assassination of witnesses and the defendant is allowed... but it's inadmissible to include that Martin owned a gun (allegedly... and illegally if he did) and used drugs and the like. Don't know why the legal system functions that way.

 

[IrishLax]

Also, it's live on CNN now.

And the one common thing coming from these witnesses seems to be that there was a protracted fight of some sort... and that Zimmerman was bleeding (from his head, nose, mouth, etc.)... so by letter of the law, seems like he had a right to "stand his ground"...

 

[TDHeysus]

why? Martin was walking down the street talking on the phone. He didn't break into anyone's house, steal anyone's laundry, and he wasn't breaking into anyone's house. In what way does your personal experience make Martin fit into the category you just put him in?

because the rain will mask sounds(and when your sitting around an apartment complex with nothing to do, you know this about the rain), plus ppl in general will have their windows closed, and maybe even curtains closed, making it less likely to be detected while breaking into cars.....I dont believe in coincidences; plotters and schemers use 'coinicidences' to their advantage

for clarification, im not taking the side of zimmerman...the focus of my post was my final line:

Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

just to fan the flames in this thread....because obviously it needs it.

my assumptions of TM are based on my life experiences; i used to live in a bad apartment complex in a not so great part of town. This is the type of place where you see 15-19 year olds 'hangin-out' and doing 'dumb ****'. In this apartment complex, over the course of 4 years I had my truck broke into 3 times, and my clothes stolen out of the laundry room twice. I boiled it down to there was alot of ppl in that aparment complex that had no guidance, nothing to do, didnt have anything of their own, and therefore couldnt respect anyone else that 'had something'. the last straw was when i caught, in the middle of the day (1pm), 2 thugs attempting to break into my apartment. (me and my basbell bat stopped that in short order)

I place TM between the ppl that broke into cars and stole my clothes, and the ppl that tried to break into my apartment.

Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

Everything in this post is all about you. Nothing about TM. And you admit you know nothing about TM/GZ so there is no fanning flames for you. It is just another ligation heard from. Has nothing to do with the case at hand, and is totally subjective. Thanks for sharing though.

because the rain will mask sounds(and when your sitting around an apartment complex with nothing to do, you know this about the rain), plus ppl in general will have their windows closed, and maybe even curtains closed, making it less likely to be detected while breaking into cars.....I dont believe in coincidences; plotters and schemers use 'coinicidences' to their advantage

for clarification, im not taking the side of zimmerman...the focus of my post was my final line:

Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

I still cannot see how they can see any of that with a straight face.

 

[TDHeysus]

Everything in this post is all about you. Nothing about TM. And you admit you know nothing about TM/GZ so there is no fanning flames for you. It is just another ligation heard from. Has nothing to do with the case at hand, and is totally subjective. Thanks for sharing though.



I still cannot see how they can see any of that with a straight face.

im sorry for having a different opinion than you do....i guess since you were there, you know the whole story and everyone else is just wrong.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

The "White Privilege" you enjoy is supposedly an abstract benefit that can't be quantified or measured. It's positioned that way so it can't ever be disproven, regardless of how poor or disadvantaged a particular white person is.

Thus, it's at best unscientific, and at worst dogma.

Falsifiability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The privilege white-middle class people have is an orientation and familiarity with the most social norms and a greater number of people that are in positions to help. We are all tribal, and alas to some degree, we all do stick together. The easier it is to fit in the more inertia we have to succeed within the parameters of our class and group. That is the privilege. That is how kings breed kings; and, red-necks breed rednecks.

 

[GoIrish41]

See, this is what intrigues me so much about this trial. Every single person I've talked to has an opinion largely influenced by personal experiences (myself included). Every single African American I've talked to at work and elsewhere thinks he's guilty. Every anti-gun person I've talked to thinks he's guilty. Almost every gun owner I've talked to thinks he's innocent.

I think he's innocent (by letter of the law only) in large part because I can't picture Zimmerman following Martin, assaulting him first, having control of the fight, and then shooting him. Why? Because PERSONALLY I can't see someone who calls 911 going out to follow someone with the intent of murdering them. Just doesn't make sense to me because it's not something I would do. I could totally see myself following a suspicious character in my neighborhood, having him turn around to confront me, and then in a fight using my gun. So all my opinions are based on personal prejudice and who I relate to in the conflict... because there simply isn't enough evidence one way or another. As a "juror" I have to choose which version of events I believe with either being possible.

I think the lack of men on the jury more than anything might be what dooms Zimmerman because I think women will relate more to Martin as their kid than to Zimmerman in any way. It will be interesting to see. But no matter what way you try to slice it, there simply isn't conclusive evidence one way or another as its being presented right now... and to me that screams "reasonable doubt." It's also strange that character assassination of witnesses and the defendant is allowed... but it's inadmissible to include that Martin owned a gun (allegedly... and illegally if he did) and used drugs and the like. Don't know why the legal system functions that way.

good post, and I probably am coming at this from the perspective of the parent of a son Martin's age. How would I react if someone shot my son for reasons that apparently had their genesis in the thought he looked "suspicious?" What does that even mean if all Martin was doing is walking down the street?

Sure, I have strong opinions about whether or not people should be permitted to carry guns around, and I probably am suspicious (there is that word again) of people who insist on having and exercising the right to carry it around with them in public. No offense to you or anyone else who disagrees, but I find the ferver with which people argue about this (knowing that the fact that they do it makes people uncomfortable or even scares them) more than a little off-putting. The question I have asked myself over and over again about this case is whether Zimmerman would have followed and/or confronted Martin if he DIDN'T have a gun. It's easy to be a bully or an authority figure when you are holding all the cards.

Are those things coloring my opinion about this case -- maybe ... probably. It's called experience and we all have different brands of it. I think it is clear that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin, which is dispicable in my book. I also think it is clear that he was highly frustrated at the inaction of the police. Incidently, judging from how they handled HIS case, they were infuriatingly inept and understand his frustration. Did he take that frustration out on an innocent kid ... well, it looks like it to me but everyone's experiences filter the evidence in a different way.

I wouldn't want some racist, coward, wannabe bigshot picking on my son just because he didn't like the way he looked, and I certainly wouldn't want him to be armed if my son decided to defend himself if the guy got too agressive. Its not like I can't see the other side of it, it is just that I can't think of anything more important to me than what I'd feel like if I was Martin's parent.

 

[GoIrish41]

because the rain will mask sounds(and when your sitting around an apartment complex with nothing to do, you know this about the rain), plus ppl in general will have their windows closed, and maybe even curtains closed, making it less likely to be detected while breaking into cars.....I dont believe in coincidences; plotters and schemers use 'coinicidences' to their advantage

for clarification, im not taking the side of zimmerman...the focus of my post was my final line:

Did TM deserve to die, absolutely not...was he some innocent happy go lucky kid, absolutely not.

Martin didn't break into anyones car or house, though. He was walking to his father's house eating skittles and talking on the phone. There is nothing suspicious about it in any way. Not only didn't he deserve to die, he didn't do anything that should have caused him to be followed in the first place. No follow, no gunshot, no issue.

 

[IrishLax]

Martin didn't break into anyones car or house, though. He was walking to his father's house eating skittles and talking on the phone. There is nothing suspicious about it in any way. Not only didn't he deserve to die, he didn't do anything that should have caused him to be followed in the first place. No follow, no gunshot, no issue.

By the opposite logic, what happens if Martin just keeps walking home versus turning around to confront Zimmerman? A lot of "what ifs" here that could have prevented the tragedy. The more I watch this trial, the more I think Zimmerman will be convicted. Let's all be clear that if he is found "innocent" it is only by the letter of the very broad Florida law.

 

[GoIrish41]

By the opposite logic, what happens if Martin just keeps walking home versus turning around to confront Zimmerman? A lot of "what ifs" here that could have prevented the tragedy. The more I watch this trial, the more I think Zimmerman will be convicted. Let's all be clear that if he is found "innocent" it is only by the letter of the very broad Florida law.

I don't think that anyone said that Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman except Zimmerman. That may be a complete fabrication.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't think that anyone said that Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman except Zimmerman. That may be a complete fabrication.

Ehhhhhh...

If you're walking and someone is following you the only way you have a confrontation is if:
A. You turn around to confront them
B. You get jumped from behind

If not A or B, and Martin, keeps walking then you can't have a confrontation. And it sure doesn't seem like he jumped him from behind. The testimony of his girlfriend pretty clearly stated (or at least implied) that Martin on the phone stated that a "creepy *** cracker" was following him and that Martin tried to evade him and when he didn't he turned around and confronted him saying "what are you following me for?"

Also, the current witness on the stand (who took the photos of Zimmerman's head wounds, etc. and was the first person on the scene) just said straight up that what he witnessed was consistent with Zimmerman getting beat up and having to defend himself. Second witness today to finger Martin as the "dominant" one of sorts in the actual physical confrontation preceding the gun shot.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Ehhhhhh...

If you're walking and someone is following you the only way you have a confrontation is if:
A. You turn around to confront them
B. You get jumped from behind
...

Exactly. Once Zimmerman presents a prima facie case of self-defense, the state basically has the burden of proving -- beyond any reasonable doubt -- that Zimmerman jumped Martin. There is not a single piece of evidence indicating that this was they way the conflict started.

Don't you think there would at least be a bruise/scratch/scrape/cut/injury or somethingon Martin if he had been attacked? (Remember, Zimmerman used to be a lot slimmer...)

Isn't if odd that the only injuries to Martin (other than by gunshot) were to his knuckles?

 

[irishff1014]

I think that this whole trial is a joke from every aspect however there is one recording that sticks out.

Zimmerman talking to the police and they tell him not to Follow the subject to me for him to continue to go after the Martin, Zimmerman was looking for problems.

 

[IrishLax]

I think that this whole trial is a joke from every aspect however there is one recording that sticks out.

Zimmerman talking to the police and they tell him not to Follow the subject to me for him to continue to go after the Martin, Zimmerman was looking for problems.

Or he was tired of the lack of responsiveness from the police and thought he was doing his job as part of the neighborhood watch....

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I think that this whole trial is a joke from every aspect however there is one recording that sticks out.

Zimmerman talking to the police and they tell him not to Follow the subject to me for him to continue to go after the Martin, Zimmerman was looking for problems.

No doubt, Zimmerman is probably a World Class @sshole. Maybe a nut-job. Possibly racist. He exercises tremendously poor judgment, and he could be a danger to the community.

So he's a lot of things, but guilty of 2nd Degree Murder isn't one of them.

 

[GoIrish41]

Ehhhhhh...

If you're walking and someone is following you the only way you have a confrontation is if:
A. You turn around to confront them
B. You get jumped from behind

If not A or B, and Martin, keeps walking then you can't have a confrontation. And it sure doesn't seem like he jumped him from behind. The testimony of his girlfriend pretty clearly stated (or at least implied) that Martin on the phone stated that a "creepy *** cracker" was following him and that Martin tried to evade him and when he didn't he turned around and confronted him saying "what are you following me for?"

Also, the current witness on the stand (who took the photos of Zimmerman's head wounds, etc. and was the first person on the scene) just said straight up that what he witnessed was consistent with Zimmerman getting beat up and having to defend himself. Second witness today to finger Martin as the "dominant" one of sorts in the actual physical confrontation preceding the gun shot.

I think there are many things that could have happened other that A and B above. Maybe Zimmerman caught up to him and grabbed him by the arm and shouted "what the h*** are you doing here, which Martin took as agressive (understandably) and it caused Martin to beat the snot out of him. Maybe, and I'm not saying this is what happened, Zimmerman walked up on Martin and his gun was already drawn, which scared Martin and he went crazy on Zimmerman. Maybe Zimmerman called him a n*gger when he confronted him and he beat his *** for it. There are many other things that could have happened that are not covered by A and B. I'm not saying that any of those things did happen, but life isn't a multiple choice test. But if it were an essay test on this topic you could not get complete credit for a correct answer unless you included the fact that none of this would happened if Zimmerman didn't initiate the chain of events by following Martin in the first place.


The suggestion that Martin could have just gone home (which is what his entire intent was in walking down the street in the first place) and ended the whole thing could be said of Zimmerman as well. He didn't have to follow him and didn't have any reason to do so.

Zimmerman talking to the police and they tell him not to Follow the subject to me for him to continue to go after the Martin, Zimmerman was looking for problems.

Of all the theories and speculations I've read on this thread, it all comes down to this one fact for me, too. Usually the most plausible story is the correct story, and it appears to me that Zimmerman was looking for trouble and he found it.

 

[irishff1014]

No doubt, Zimmerman is probably a World Class @sshole. Maybe a nut-job. Possibly racist. He exercises tremendously poor judgment, and he could be a danger to the community.

So he's a lot of things, but guilty of 2nd Degree Murder isn't one of them.

That recording doesn't prove he killed him you are exactly right. And i am not saying he did.

 

[irishff1014]

Or he was tired of the lack of responsiveness from the police and thought he was doing his job as part of the neighborhood watch....

A suspicious person isn't a high priority call. I don't know how many officers they had working and what other calls they were handling.

 

[IrishLax]

I think there are many things that could have happened other that A and B above. Maybe Zimmerman caught up to him and grabbed him by the arm and shouted "what the h*** are you doing here, which Martin took as agressive (understandably) and it caused Martin to beat the snot out of him. Maybe, and I'm not saying this is what happened, Zimmerman walked up on Martin and his gun was already drawn, which scared Martin and he went crazy on Zimmerman. Maybe Zimmerman called him a n*gger when he confronted him and he beat his *** for it. There are many other things that could have happened that are not covered by A and B. I'm not saying that any of those things did happen, but life isn't a multiple choice test. But if it were an essay test on this topic you could not get complete credit for a correct answer unless you included the fact that none of this would happened if Zimmerman didn't initiate the chain of events by following Martin in the first place.

Right, but we have the testimony of the person on the phone with him. She clearly stated on the stand that he was being followed, tried to evade Zimmerman (who knows what this means? did he cut through backyards? did he start running? but I digress... it's pretty irrelevant), he realizes that he didn't shake Zimmerman, let's out an expletive, and then confronts Zimmerman saying "what are you following me for?" and then the fight starts.

All we don't know is if:
-After Martin tries to evade him and fails, does Zimmerman say something to him that isn't picked up on the phone call that provoked the fight (you know... anything like "get back here N***!" or what have you)
-Was Zimmerman approaching him aggressively (gun drawn? running at him? fists balled up?)

We do know that Martin turned around to face him, said "what are you following me for?" and then the fight almost immediately started.

The suggestion that Martin could have just gone home (which is what his entire intent was in walking down the street in the first place) and ended the whole thing could be said of Zimmerman as well. He didn't have to follow him and didn't have any reason to do so.

Absolutely. In no way, shape, or form should Zimmerman be absolved of blame for this happening. The tricky question is whether or not he is guilty of murder by the letter of the law.

 

[gkIrish]

The problem with this trial is that the media has already found him guilty and the jury probably is tainted. Bottom line.

 

[alohagoirish]

This trial seems to be absolutely pointless in my view.

Zimmerman was clearly the reason Martin is dead. He profiled him and he was TOTALLY WRONG---he had high confidence Martin was some kind of deadbeat , robber, unsavory character. He was TOTALLY wrong again. He didn't listen to the police , he was clearly looking for trouble based on his own comments about martin when he set out after him, followed him and clearly uspet and freaked out the youngster. It was unnecessary and WRONG and precipitated the events that cost martin his life.

All that said---there is a small possibility that Zimmerman could be convicted IN A STATE OTHER THEN FLORIDA for some kind of manslaughter charge based on his aggressive behavior and his disregard of the police instructions. STILL a difficult case to get a conviction of manslaughter but possible.

A second degree murder charge--in a "stand your ground state allowing concealed weapons" from an all white jury---and with virtually NO EVIDENCE to seriously contradict Zimmermans story makes a conviction ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.

Now I have no idea what happened during the altercation--and apparently their is little to no evidence about that----and I DO NOT THINK MUCH OF THE DEFENDENT ---but I have to say......

Of all the high profile public trials since say OJ----many of those verdicts as big a joke as the Casey Anthony acquittal---I HAVE NEVER SEEN A WEAKER CASE FOR A MURDER CHARGE!

Prosecutors must have been either pressured or drunk to think they should make this charge not voluntary or involuntary manslaughter but 2nd DEGREE murder---- its ALMOST AS STUPID A MOVE AS THE INFAMOUS " TRY ON THE GLOVES MANUEVER" we all remember from the OJ case.

This should be an involuntary manslaughter case and maybe, maybe , mr Zimmerman would get some punishment for being so aggressive and so wrong in his assumptions and behavior that it cost a young man his life.---

But a murder charge is just a waste of time.

Jury will acquit within two days of the trials end.
And Zimmerman will likely do something else that gets him some karma justice within 2 or 3 years of the trials end.

 

[IrishLax]

According to CNN a big part of the case will be that Travon Martin went for the gun first while it was holstered on his right side and that's when it escalated to life and death........... interesting... obviously no evidence of that occurring.