Foreign Policy

[Bluto]

Also a case of FAFO. Israel woke up that fight. Also, Israel is proving really effective at being precise in taking people out.

FAFO.

Ok.

What exactly did Iran do to justify this? Helping the US bag Bin Laden? Helping the US eliminate Isis?

Using your flawed logic 9-11 which was funded by our ally Saudi Arabia was justified.

Stop being such a shill for Israel. This is Netanyahu trying to drag the US into yet another conflict in the Mid East. Those have been a real peach to date.

 

[NDVirginia19]

FAFO.

Ok.

What exactly did Iran do to justify this? Helping the US bag Bin Laden? Helping the US eliminate Isis?

Using your flawed logic 9-11 which was funded by our ally Saudi Arabia was justified.

Stop being such a shill for Israel. This is Netanyahu trying to drag the US into yet another conflict in the Mid East. Those have been a real peach to date.

Do you know that Hamas, Hezbollah, The Houthis, and more all receive funding and equipment from the IRGC right?

 

[drayer54]

Do you know that Hamas, Hezbollah, The Houthis, and more all receive funding and equipment from the IRGC right?

No, he’s clearly wanting us to drop pallets of cash to the people supporting the Russian war effort, funding terror in Israel, and trying establish nuclear capabilities. These attacks have been very calculated against IRGC leadership and nuclear/strategic targets. Iran was given an opportunity to negotiate and disarm.

This is pretty surgical for warfare.

 

[calvegas04]

Both sides pounding each other, Israel more so giving the beating

 

[calvegas04]

Gezz I really hope the US is pouring money into AD tech

 

[drayer54]

 

[Wild Bill]

No, he’s clearly wanting us to drop pallets of cash to the people supporting the Russian war effort, funding terror in Israel, and trying establish nuclear capabilities. These attacks have been very calculated against IRGC leadership and nuclear/strategic targets. Iran was given an opportunity to negotiate and disarm.

This is pretty surgical for warfare.
View attachment 3059076

They're not so surgical in Gaza. Different goals, I guess.

 

[drayer54]

They're not so surgical in Gaza. Different goals, I guess.

Indeed. Stop the people who attacked you and fire rockets at you and rid them out from the tunnels they hide in. A war on cowards who hide under civilians in tunnels is very different.

 

[GATTACA!]

Indeed. Stop the people who attacked you and fire rockets at you and rid them out from the tunnels they hide in. A war on cowards who hide under civilians in tunnels is very different.

I mean come on man lol.

I don't really give a shit about this conflict. Neither side will stop. This has been the logical endpoint for forever, but it's pretty ridiculous to try and claim that Israel is only causing the destruction they are because Hamas is hiding. They're leveling all of Gaza and opening up settlements in the ashes. It's obvious what they're doing.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I see the usual suspects are defending and shilling for the Iranians and Palestinians. Some people are just born to be useful idiots and always on the wrong side of every issue.

 

[Irish#1]

I mean come on man lol.

I don't really give a shit about this conflict. Neither side will stop. This has been the logical endpoint for forever, but it's pretty ridiculous to try and claim that Israel is only causing the destruction they are because Hamas is hiding. They're leveling all of Gaza and opening up settlements in the ashes. It's obvious what they're doing.

No one has provided a better way to get rid of Hamas. Particularly when they use innocent people as shields. If you don't level everything to destroy the tunnels, you'll never get rid of them.

 

[GowerND11]

I see the usual suspects are defending and shilling for the Iranians and Palestinians. Some people are just born to be useful idiots and always on the wrong side of every issue.

I don’t think one person has shilled for Iran. We all recognize their leadership are pieces of shit.

There are people who are questioning what the US will do here. There are people questioning Israel’s ability to be “surgical” in Iran and not Palestine. And there are people that do think the Palestinian people are innocent pawns being used by Hamas as shields, and as pawns by the Israelis by bombing their towns and cities in their search for Hamas.

 

[calvegas04]

Night 3?

 

[drayer54]

No one has provided a better way to get rid of Hamas. Particularly when they use innocent people as shields. If you don't level everything to destroy the tunnels, you'll never get rid of them.

I am yet to hear of a better solution. Egypt wasn't exactly opening the door to help with refugees.

 

[Bluto]

Do you know that Hamas, Hezbollah, The Houthis, and more all receive funding and equipment from the IRGC right?

I do.

Iran seems more interested in maintaining its sphere of influence on a regional level. That objectively makes sense.

I also know that the US backed the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran, the installation of a monarch and his brutal regime in Iran, Saddam Hussein when Iraq instigated a war with Iran that killed millions and then looked the other way when Iraq used chemical weapons. It makes complete sense for Iranians to have a deep dislike/distrust of the US government given those facts.

In-spite of the above I do not recall any preemptive or unprovoked Iranian attacks on US troops or any documented cases of Iranian backed terror groups acting on US or European soil or any attacks by Hamas or Hezbollah directly against US troops in the region. The Houthis attacked some US merchant vessels and as soon as the US stopped bombing them they stopped attacking US ships. That doesn’t seem like the actions of a bunch of unhinged jihadis.

I also know that Israel has directly spied on and engaged in espionage against the US for decades (lots of evidence Epstein was working for Mossad) dumps tons of money into political campaigns to influence US politics as well as the US media. Our “allies” Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are hands down to date the biggest backers/exporters of Islamic terrorists that have attacked the US and Europe directly.

I also recall there being a nuclear agreement in place with Iran that the current president foolishly in my opinion decided to scrap so he could then come in with some “greater deal”, that the US’s own latest intelligence assessment said Iran wasn’t developing a nuclear weapons program and now here we are.

Bravo!

 

[Bluto]

No one has provided a better way to get rid of Hamas. Particularly when they use innocent people as shields. If you don't level everything to destroy the tunnels, you'll never get rid of them.

Hamas is still there and the IDF has repeatedly used “human shields”.

Israeli use of human shields in Gaza was systematic, soldiers and former detainees tell the AP

Several Palestinians and Israeli soldiers say troops are systematically forcing Palestinians to act as human shields in Gaza, sending them into buildings and tunnels to check for bombs and gunmen.

apnews.com

Now, Hamas has stated on numerous occasions that they would gladly accept turning over power in Gaza to a Palestinian administrative state as a part of a cease fire agreement.

 

[NDVirginia19]

I do.

Iran seems more interested in maintaining its sphere of influence on a regional level. That objectively makes sense.

I also know that the US backed the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran, the installation of a monarch and his brutal regime in Iran, Saddam Hussein when Iraq instigated a war with Iran that killed millions and then looked the other way when Iraq used chemical weapons. It makes complete sense for Iranians to have a deep dislike/distrust of the US government given those facts.

In-spite of the above I do not recall any preemptive or unprovoked Iranian attacks on US troops or any documented cases of Iranian backed terror groups acting on US or European soil or any attacks by Hamas or Hezbollah directly against US troops in the region. The Houthis attacked some US merchant vessels and as soon as the US stopped bombing them they stopped attacking US ships. That doesn’t seem like the actions of a bunch of unhinged jihadis.

I also know that Israel has directly spied on and engaged in espionage against the US for decades (lots of evidence Epstein was working for Mossad) dumps tons of money into political campaigns to influence US politics as well as the US media. Our “allies” Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are hands down to date the biggest backers/exporters of Islamic terrorists that have attacked the US and Europe directly.

I also recall there being a nuclear agreement in place with Iran that the current president foolishly in my opinion decided to scrap so he could then come in with some “greater deal”, that the US’s own latest intelligence assessment said Iran wasn’t developing a nuclear weapons program and now here we are.

Bravo!

What’s your definition of “unprovoked”? Iranian backed Hezbollah orchestrated the Beirut bombing killing 241 Americans and 58 French. Hundreds of US service members were killed during OIF by Iranian backed militia groups via IEDs

 

[Irish#1]

Hamas is still there and the IDF has repeatedly used “human shields”.

Israeli use of human shields in Gaza was systematic, soldiers and former detainees tell the AP

Several Palestinians and Israeli soldiers say troops are systematically forcing Palestinians to act as human shields in Gaza, sending them into buildings and tunnels to check for bombs and gunmen.

apnews.com

Now, Hamas has stated on numerous occasions that they would gladly accept turning over power in Gaza to a Palestinian administrative state as a part of a cease fire agreement.

Hamas is still there because Israel didn't finish going end to end. Human shields are not good, but Israel using them doesn't absolved Hamas or make it okay. How you would get rid of Hamas without telling us you would through peace negotiations?

 

[TorontoGold]

No one has provided a better way to get rid of Hamas. Particularly when they use innocent people as shields. If you don't level everything to destroy the tunnels, you'll never get rid of them.

There's been plenty of better methods suggested by plenty of people on here from actual foreign policy experts. You not wanting to engage on those ideas does mean "no one has provided a better way".

Israel has fired rockets from residential areas. No one here would dispute a war crime would be committed if some other nation destroyed the residential area around those launchers. If you are going to say Hamas is using human shields, then you need to say Israel is doing the same. Either way, both governments are putting their citizens at risk.

 

[NDVirginia19]

There's been plenty of better methods suggested by plenty of people on here from actual foreign policy experts. You not wanting to engage on those ideas does mean "no one has provided a better way".

Israel has fired rockets from residential areas. No one here would dispute a war crime would be committed if some other nation destroyed the residential area around those launchers. If you are going to say Hamas is using human shields, then you need to say Israel is doing the same. Either way, both governments are putting their citizens at risk.

By rockets do you mean defensive anti-air systems that are located in civilian centers because those areas are often targeted by Hamas and Iran?

 

[TorontoGold]

By rockets do you mean defensive anti-air systems that are located in civilian centers because those areas are often targeted by Hamas and Iran?

You can say the same about the areas in Gaza no? If not, where exactly do you expect them to setup a military base? Do you honestly believe that Israeli government would allow for Gaza residents to have a built up army base?

What about the Israeli military strapping Palestinians to ambulances as human shields?

 

[NDVirginia19]

You can say the same about the areas in Gaza no? If not, where exactly do you expect them to setup a military base? Do you honestly believe that Israeli government would allow for Gaza residents to have a built up army base?

What about the Israeli military strapping Palestinians to ambulances as human shields?

If the Israelis used civilians on the outside of a medical vehicle to prevent the ambulance from being attacked I think that is a morally more defensible action than using the basement of a hospital to serve a military purpose of command and control. In either case I think both are bad, but one less so than the other.

 

[Irish#1]

There's been plenty of better methods suggested by plenty of people on here from actual foreign policy experts. You not wanting to engage on those ideas does mean "no one has provided a better way".

Israel has fired rockets from residential areas. No one here would dispute a war crime would be committed if some other nation destroyed the residential area around those launchers. If you are going to say Hamas is using human shields, then you need to say Israel is doing the same. Either way, both governments are putting their citizens at risk.

For the guy that has no bias and thinks they are completely fair in their thoughts, you really need to open your mind. I already said human shields are not good. Your biases cloud your thoughts before your fingers hit the keyboard.

I'm fine and open to discussing other options. You're the guy that originally told me negotiations were they way to go and how did that turn out? I've never supported everything Israel has done, but you keep talking about how Israel is the bully on the block that started the fight. In case you've forgot, 1) Hamas started this with an unprovoked attack on unprotected citizens, 2) Hamas is a terrorist group. They don't play by the same rules.

 

[TorontoGold]

If the Israelis used civilians on the outside of a medical vehicle to prevent the ambulance from being attacked I think that is a morally more defensible action than using the basement of a hospital to serve a military purpose of command and control. In either case I think both are bad, but one less so than the other.

Ok defend it then. I don't see that as being a defendable position. It's like saying "ND has a great WR room", and then when questioned on it, a person goes "well it's better than Purdue", yes, but the objective is not be better than bottom tier. Expecting Israel to act like a modern nation is not a tough ask.

I don't think anyone is arguing to keep Hamas in place as a rational actor going forward. That's not the discussion or point that anyone has made. The issue is that the nation/entity who will remain at the resolution of this conflict is committing war crimes. That can not be continued if there is to be a peaceful future. If the response is just "well Hamas is worse soooooo" then why not just kill each and every Palestinian? If you are going to strap them to ambulances and use them as human shields, and torture them - what's the point of even keeping them alive? An occupying force is doing themselves more harm in maintaining order than committing war crimes against the population they are occupying.

 

[TorontoGold]

For the guy that has no bias and thinks they are completely fair in their thoughts, you really need to open your mind. I already said human shields are not good. Your biases cloud your thoughts before your fingers hit the keyboard.

I'm fine and open to discussing other options. You're the guy that originally told me negotiations were they way to go and how did that turn out? I've never supported everything Israel has done, but you keep talking about how Israel is the bully on the block that started the fight. In case you've forgot, 1) Hamas started this with an unprovoked attack on unprotected citizens, 2) Hamas is a terrorist group. They don't play by the same rules.

I have plenty of bias' were did I say I don't have a bias? The issue is people don't acknowledge their biases. Which of my points do you believe to biased, and what do believe my bias to be?

Yes, negotiations are always the way to go. They are absolutely the bully on the block? lol what? They are the occupying force. The rules of engagement/disengagement are theirs to decide. For someone who was alive for the rise of the ANC in South Africa, did you argue against the end of the Apartheid because of the actions of ANC in conflicts, or that it shouldn't happen because Nelson Mandela was categorized as a terrorist until the 90s?

What about the Warsaw uprising in the wrong because they fought back against the Nazi's from the sewers and streets, you wouldn't say they were in the wrong right? How about slaves that killed their owners, does that mean racial segregation is ok?

 

[Irish#1]

I have plenty of bias' were did I say I don't have a bias? The issue is people don't acknowledge their biases. Which of my points do you believe to biased, and what do believe my bias to be?

Yes, negotiations are always the way to go. They are absolutely the bully on the block? lol what? They are the occupying force. The rules of engagement/disengagement are theirs to decide. For someone who was alive for the rise of the ANC in South Africa, did you argue against the end of the Apartheid because of the actions of ANC in conflicts, or that it shouldn't happen because Nelson Mandela was categorized as a terrorist until the 90s?

What about the Warsaw uprising in the wrong because they fought back against the Nazi's from the sewers and streets, you wouldn't say they were in the wrong right? How about slaves that killed their owners, does that mean racial segregation is ok?

I see we're firing up the legendary Toronto Vortex. lol

Comparing Mandela to Hamas is priceless. Start a new thread on those subjects and I'll be happy to discuss.

 

[TorontoGold]

I see we're firing up the legendary Toronto Vortex. lol

Comparing Mandela to Hamas is priceless. Start a new thread on those subjects and I'll be happy to discuss.

Ah, when you're asked to clarify why you think one thing is correct but not the other it's shutdown time? I tried to see why you would (presumably) be ok with the end of the apartheid in South Africa, rise up in Warsaw, and slaves fighting back in slavery. I guess you have examples of other emancipation movements that were done peacefully?

You need to read it again - I compared the ANC and the situation with ending the Apartheid in South Africa, and that the US considered Mandela a terrorist until the 90s. I had figured someone who was an established adult at the time would be able to remember back to that time, but I guess you don't remember or don't want to?

Do the actions of a group mean that the entire population has to suffer from the actions of the most radical elements?

 

[calvegas04]

 

[calvegas04]

 

[calvegas04]