Fatal shooting Charleston SC

NDgradstudent · Jun 20, 2015

South Carolina doesn’t specify tougher sentences or widen the group of people who can be victims of hate crimes.

So in other words, South Carolina law does not encourage would-be criminals to make sure that they criminalize people of the same race as them, in order to receive a lesser sentence.

pkt77242 · Jun 20, 2015

Roof's purported manifesto under review by investigators

Cackalacky · Jun 20, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
So in other words, South Carolina law does not encourage would-be criminals to make sure that they criminalize people of the same race as them, in order to receive a lesser sentence.

This is an extremely disingenuous post. Ever seen what a black person looks like after he was dragged behind a truck on a dirt road just because he was black?

The reason hate crimes were documented in the first place and warrant heftier penalties is because they are sooooo much more egregious and directed at a specific group of people. The reason is also because hate crime is a specific type of crime perpetrated by a specific calibre of person teminiscient of terrorism. The reason SC doesn't have a hate crime is not for your libertarian based ideology. By any means.....

magogian · Jun 20, 2015

From 538, just horrible:

Black Americans are almost eight times as likely as white ones to be homicide victims.

So for white Americans, the homicide death rate is not so much of an outlier. It’s only modestly higher than in Finland, Belgium or Greece, for instance, and lower than in Chile or Latvia.

But there’s no other highly industrialized country with a homicide death rate similar to the one black Americans experience. Their homicide death rate, 19.4 per 100,000 persons, is about 12 times higher than the average rate among all people4 in other developed countries

Click to expand...

GoldenToTheGrave · Jun 20, 2015

Bishop2b5 said:
As a native Southerner, I strongly agree with that. Growing up, I never thought of the Confederate flag as being racist at all and never heard anyone else I knew, black or white, express such a view. It was just a symbol of being Southern and part of our history. Heck, plenty of the black guys I grew up with had Confederate flags. It's only been in the past few decades that it's taken on this "You're celebrating slavery" connection and become a symbol of hatred, bigotry, or oppression in some people's minds. Most Southerners don't hold those beliefs or think of the Confederate flag in those terms.

Do you think the Nazi flag isn't a symbol of racism either?

Redbar · Jun 20, 2015

IrishLax said:
It all depends on your definition of sanity. The dictionary definition of sane is "of sound mind, not mad or mentally ill... reasonable, sensible." If we're talking about mental defects like schizophrenia, etc. he reportedly doesn't have anything like that.

But in general, I'd argue that anyone who does something like what happened in Charleston is, subjectively, violating most of that definition. But that's all relative. To me, you have to be insane to want to start a "civil war" and go murder people in a church, as any "reasonable/sensible" person would never conceive of doing something like that.

And it's clearly different than the criminal insanity defense... that requires specific conditions be met that weren't in this case. Being a sociopath or psychopath obviously doesn't give you a pass in the court of law, or most serial killers would get a free pass.

I see what you are saying Lax, but it is so subjective that it really isn't worth raising. Most reasonable/sensible people would not commit any of the violent crimes we see committed. We could say the same thing about almost any violent criminal sitting in prison, most people would never think to carry out the crimes they do. On some level they are all insane, if only in there complete contempt for society and the lives of others and severe lack of conscience and empathy. This perp is no different than them and does not need any additional excuses or explanations.

NDgradstudent · Jun 20, 2015

Cackalacky said:
This is an extremely disingenuous post. Ever seen what a black person looks like after he was dragged behind a truck on a dirt road just because he was black?

The reason hate crimes were documented in the first place and warrant heftier penalties is because they are sooooo much more egregious and directed at a specific group of people. The reason is also because hate crime is a specific type of crime perpetrated by a specific calibre of person teminiscient of terrorism. The reason SC doesn't have a hate crime is not for your libertarian based ideology. By any means.....

Does a black person dragged behind a truck look worse than a white/Asian/Hispanic/whatever person dragged behind a truck?

NDgradstudent · Jun 20, 2015

magogian said:
From 538, just horrible:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/

And almost all of those homicides are committed by other blacks: in fact, black-on-black crime has increased following the most recent iteration of the war on cops. Refraining from cop-bashing (no more reductions in police patrols or random checks, no more racial-preferences in hiring, etc.) is necessary to begin to reduce such violence.

Cackalacky · Jun 20, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
Does a black person dragged behind a truck look worse than a white/Asian/Hispanic/whatever person dragged behind a truck?

I can't tell if you are being purposefully disingenuous or not so for the time being I will assume you are not. I figured up you would respond in that manner. If you want to have a serious discussion let's have it.

To answer your rhetorical question ....No they don't look different. But we did not have a 100 year period in the south where other minorities were purposely targeted for violence specifically because they were deemed inferior and such acts sole purpose was to terrorize. White people are and have not had to walk around for 80 years fearing for their life or family's lives being lynched or dragged out back of an establishment and beat in to the gutter. Asians are the closest as their experience out west was very similar and another reason hate crimes were established. This is not just about whites not being subject to the hate crime law but protecting MINORITIES from the MAJORITY. In this instance in America the majority being white the target of the majority's ire being blacks for hundred of years who also were former economic resources for said white people. There is no reason to muddy this with ...well it's not fair because whites can't claim hate crime laws. #pathetic

Nazis were not only bad because they targeted Jews. They were much much worse because they starved them, performed unnecessary medical experiments, worked them as slaves until they died or gassed them. That is far more atrocious than simply shooting someone. Surely you can see that but I assume you will obfuscate this in some sort of libertarian equality argument.

Not all crimes are the same as we have various murder charges and appropriate punishments. Hate crimes DO exist and deserve much more severe punishments IMO. Because the majority in power chose to use extreme measures in terrorist style attacks on a specific subset of the minority because they assume authority or are unequally exempt from punishment.

pkt77242 · Jun 20, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
So in other words, South Carolina law does not encourage would-be criminals to make sure that they criminalize people of the same race as them, in order to receive a lesser sentence.

Are you always this willfully ignorant?

Cackalacky · Jun 20, 2015

https://news.vice.com/article/website-surfaces-with-disturbing-photos-and-manifesto-purportedly-written-by-dylann-roof?utm_source=vicenewsfb

This has a link to a website reportedly by Roof with a zip file of pics and a text manifesto.

Last Rhodesian Manifesto

NDinL.A. · Jun 20, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
Does a black person dragged behind a truck look worse than a white/Asian/Hispanic/whatever person dragged behind a truck?

After reading your posts in this thread, I'm embarrassed that you go/went to Notre Dame.

Redbar · Jun 20, 2015

magogian said:
From 538, just horrible:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/...-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/

NDgradstudent said:
And almost all of those homicides are committed by other blacks: in fact, black-on-black crime has increased following the most recent iteration of the war on cops. Refraining from cop-bashing (no more reductions in police patrols or random checks, no more racial-preferences in hiring, etc.) is necessary to begin to reduce such violence.

This is equivalent to an Alley-oop, only in troll-dom.
Birds of a feather.

NDgradstudent · Jun 20, 2015

Cackalacky said:
I can't tell if you are being purposefully disingenuous or not so for the time being I will assume you are not. I figured up you would respond in that manner. If you want to have a serious discussion let's have it.

To answer your rhetorical question ....No they don't look different. But we did not have a 100 year period in the south where other minorities were purposely targeted for violence specifically because they were deemed inferior and such acts sole purpose was to terrorize. White people are and have not had to walk around for 80 years fearing for their life or family's lives being lynched or dragged out back of an establishment and beat in to the gutter. Asians are the closest as their experience out west was very similar and another reason hate crimes were established. This is not just about whites not being subject to the hate crime law but protecting MINORITIES from the MAJORITY. In this instance in America the majority being white the target of the majority's ire being blacks for hundred of years who also were former economic resources for said white people. There is no reason to muddy this with ...well it's not fair because whites can't claim hate crime laws. #pathetic

Nazis were not only bad because they targeted Jews. They were much much worse because they starved them, performed unnecessary medical experiments, worked them as slaves until they died or gassed them. That is far more atrocious than simply shooting someone. Surely you can see that but I assume you will obfuscate this in some sort of libertarian equality argument.

Not all crimes are the same as we have various murder charges and appropriate punishments. Hate crimes DO exist and deserve much more severe punishments IMO. Because the majority in power chose to use extreme measures in terrorist style attacks on a specific subset of the minority because they assume authority or are unequally exempt from punishment.

I am not being disingenuous. The point is that anybody's body, of whatever race, is mangled when they are dragged by a truck. The wrongness of the act is not related to the race of the victim, in my view.

I am suspicious of the government designating certain groups as permanent victims, and then doling out greater punishments for crimes committed against them. On your view, apparently, a white person killing a black person is worse than a white person killing a white person. Equality before the law is discarded and replaced by a game of "Who? Whom?" I believe in equality before the law, which means that murder is murder; the race of the victim does not affect how wrong it is or how severely it should be punished.

pkt77242 said:
Are you always this willfully ignorant?

Who is ignorant? Answer my question: is a white person killing a black person worse than a white person killing a white person?

NDinL.A. said:
After reading your posts in this thread, I'm embarrassed that you go/went to Notre Dame.

Independent thought is not yet completely verboten at Notre Dame.

pkt77242 · Jun 20, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
So in other words, South Carolina law does not encourage would-be criminals to make sure that they criminalize people of the same race as them, in order to receive a lesser sentence.

NDgradstudent said:
Who is ignorant? Answer my question: is a white person killing a black person worse than a white person killing a white person?

As usual you are being ignorant. A white person killing a black person is not worse then a white person killing a white person. It is not a hate crime for a white person to kill a black person. It becomes a hate crime when you target the black person for being black.

For example, if a white person goes to rob a convenience store and gets in a altercation with the clerk during the robbery and kills him, it is not a hate crime. It is still a horrible crime. Now it is a hate crime for the white person to kill a black person for being black. Intent and premeditation matters especially in crimes such as murder. Your whole entire first statement is based on a false premise. There is no encouragement to criminalize people of the same race as it is not a hate crime to commit a crime against a different race, it is only a crime to commit the crime because of their race (and it really isn't a crime as much as a sentence enhancer anyways). Actually I think ignorant is the wrong word, I think that myopic might be a better fit. You seem to want to fit everything into your narrow world view and in order to do that you have to distort them.

As former Chief Justice Rehnquist said “bias-motivated crimes are more likely to provoke retaliatory crimes, inflict distinct emotional harms on their victims and incite community unrest.”

ETA: Intent matters.

alohagoirish · Jun 21, 2015

There is both a pragmatic and philosophical rationale to distinguish " bias " crimes or "hate crimes" from your common personal crime of greed/passion/sex etc. Violence driven by "bias" ,"ethnic hatred", "racial hatred", 'religious hatred' has the historical mojo to overwhelm societies if it flowers in the broader culture.

History is filled with many 'holocausts' not just the Nazi experience. Today its in Syria , yesterday it was Germany, last week it was Ruwanda, last month it was Armenia and on and on from continent to continent civilization to civilization. .

Identity crimes differentiate themselves from typical crimes because experience has taught us that a death sentence or imprisonment / torture/ persecution simply for "who you are", simply because of your identity, underpins the darkest events and darkest characteristics of human civilization.

Its in the social interest to keep the grim potentials of identity murder on the front burner of social consciousness. It is far different in potential if not different in kind from other violence.

NDinL.A. · Jun 21, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
Independent thought is not yet completely verboten at Notre Dame.

LOL. It has absolutely zero to do with independent thought. Independent thought is all over the place at ND, which I witness and enjoy daily.

It has everything to do with what you are spewing. It's embarrassing...and I'm a conservative. You're not exactly cloaking yourself in glory here...

Cackalacky · Jun 21, 2015

Here are some photos from the area. Trying to keep it positive:

Folly Boat. Our local Beach billboard.

Variation of the state flag

9 roses in the Randolph Hall Cistern Gate

Also there are plans for more the 6000 people to join hands over the Ravennel bridge today. 2.5 miles of love conquering hate. I will post some pics as they come out

IrishJayhawk · Jun 21, 2015

NDgradstudent said:
I am not being disingenuous.

Independent thought is not yet completely verboten at Notre Dame.

There it is. You seem to proceed from the assumption that you're the only intelligent one in the room. I know it's just the internet, but it would serve you to give others the benefit of the doubt here and there.

Cackalacky · Jun 21, 2015

It was done. 6000+ people joined hands over the bridge connecting Mt. Pleasant to Charleston. No one hurt, no crimes,....

Also at 10 am today, prior to services, the multitude of churches downtown coordinated ringing their bells. I was unable to be here for it this morning but there are some videos out there on you tube if anyone cares to take a listen. Pretty cool.

NDRock · Jun 21, 2015

Cackalacky said:
It was done. 6000+ people joined hands over the bridge connecting Mt. Pleasant to Charleston. No one hurt, no crimes,....

Also at 10 am today, prior to services, the multitude of churches downtown coordinated ringing their bells. I was unable to be here for it this morning but there are some videos out there on you tube if anyone cares to take a listen. Pretty cool.

Wow, that's a great reaction to a terrible crime. Charleston is a special place.

Cackalacky · Jun 21, 2015

Easily one of my favorite pics from tonight.

Cackalacky · Jun 21, 2015

Another fav.

Redbar · Jun 21, 2015

This picture and this reaction by so many of the people of Charleston reminded me of this gem, a different type of manifesto:

https://youtu.be/wvclR_jLn_4

Cackalacky · Jun 21, 2015

Redbar said:
This picture and this reaction by so many of the people of Charleston reminded me of this gem, a different type of manifesto:

https://youtu.be/wvclR_jLn_4

Beautiful song.

Cackalacky · Jun 22, 2015

Doors were opened today for the first service.

Bishop2b5 · Jun 22, 2015

It's hard to imagine what the people at this church are going through. To most of us, this is a tragedy, but it happened far away to people we didn't actually know. To the people in that church, the nine victims were friends and family, people they'd sat next to, prayed with, eaten dinner with, visited their homes, celebrated & cried with, and cared about. They weren't just names in a news story. They were loved ones that they knew.

JughedJones · Jun 22, 2015

Bishop2b5 said:
It's hard to imagine what the people at this church are going through. To most of us, this is a tragedy, but it happened far away to people we didn't actually know. To the people in that church, the nine victims were friends and family, people they'd sat next to, prayed with, eaten dinner with, visited their homes, celebrated & cried with, and cared about. They weren't just names in a news story. They were loved ones that they knew.

Bishop2b5: Do you really want to help your son avoid ever being poor? Stop teaching him victimology and that any failures he will experience in life are someone else's fault. Teach him to be responsible for his own actions and their consequences, good or bad, and that his success or failure is totally up to him. In other words, teach him to be a responsible man and not a helpless victim.

This was you talking to a man raising an African-American child that you don't know.

He was doing just fine, but you assumed he was a jagoff. I might have forgot the inherent idiocy of the statement you made, but I won't forget the presumptions.

All the making up you're pretending to do won't cover the interloper you are.

irishff1014 · Jun 22, 2015

Bishop2b5 said:
It's hard to imagine what the people at this church are going through. To most of us, this is a tragedy, but it happened far away to people we didn't actually know. To the people in that church, the nine victims were friends and family, people they'd sat next to, prayed with, eaten dinner with, visited their homes, celebrated & cried with, and cared about. They weren't just names in a news story. They were loved ones that they knew.

I have never seen this or had this happen close to home much like others haven't. But I have seen other events that was very upsetting and it really makes your heart hurt for people going through this. One thing I do believe we need to do as a country is quit saying this won't happen to me or happen in my area. You have to be prepared for anything anymore.

IrishLax · Jun 22, 2015

Question for anyone that might know... when was the last time there was a clearly racial white on black mass crime (terrorism) like this? I can think of the Birmingham church bombings of the 60s, but I know there must be many other examples since then I'm not remembering. What was the most recent one?

Fatal shooting Charleston SC

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