Expectations

[bobbyok1]

I think the main issues are as follows:

1. The quality of what Freeman had handed off to him (or at the very least perceptions of what he was handed off)
   • Marcus didn't inherit the program Kelly did. Kelly had built the program back up. Now, it may be that the actual quality of players was not all the different. But that seems unlikely. A deep dive would reveal this.
2. People want to see us take the next step (competing in or winning the CFP)
   • The perception was, that Kelly got us close, and Marcus will take us to the promised land. Marcus' first two teams seem to be more of the same in some respects, but in reality a more volatile version of "more of the same." So 9-3/10-2 type team who is close but no cigar. Winning games we might not have under Kelly's final years and while at the same time losing some we would not have during Kelly's final years.
3. Kelly hangover
   • It seemed like under Kelly we were FOREVER the bridesmaid and never the bride. Most every year we wanted to take the next step and never did.
   • People likely fear it is going to be more of the same under Freeman and cannot stomach 5 years, let alone 10, of watching a 9-3, 10-2 team get close but lose the ones that matter most.
4. General Coaching concerns.
   • It just doesn't feel like, seem like, look like, or whatever other way you want to say it, it just doesn't appear that the issue with this team is the talent level, but the coaching overall.
   • We seem like a team that could be undefeated and in the top 5 or even top 3. Instead, we are 6-2 and ranked #15. Ultimately that has to come back to coaching, and the buck stops with the HEAD coach.
5. An unrealistic exception that there would not be an initial step backward under Freeman.
   • It was unrealistic to expect a first-time head coach, coupled with a first-time O Coordinator to take us to the promised land this year.
   • Taking a step back before taking a step forward is almost always a reality when a new leader/direction begins in any organization.

 

[stlnd01]

When his starting QB isn't out, the guy from Utah always seemed put together dangerous offenses with power running and a bunch of 3 stars. I wonder what he would cost?

We should check him out. Maybe have him visit campus this offseason.

 

[thekid33]

We should check him out. Maybe have him visit campus this offseason.

I heard hockey games are a fun time!

 

[Lberry]

Speaking of expectations. McMurphy has ND vs. LSU in his Bowl Projections.

It's be wild if we finish 2023 beating them head to head on the field and in recruiting rankings.

 

[Irish#1]

1. An unrealistic exception that there would not be an initial step backward under Freeman.
   • It was unrealistic to expect a first-time head coach, coupled with a first-time O Coordinator to take us to the promised land this year.
   • Taking a step back before taking a step forward is almost always a reality when a new leader/direction begins in any organization.

This is it in a nutshell.

After two years of getting everything dialed in and learning from his mistakes, MF should be able to elevate the program past Kelly simply because of the improved recruiting.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

If they finish less than 9-3, it'll be disappointing. Pitt, Wake and Stanford should be wins. Clemson, I have absolutely no clue. Could be a rock fight, could be a pillow fight, but it's two programs not as good as they were a few years ago. Very simple.

 

[Green Mountains]

If they finish less than 9-3, it'll be disappointing. Pitt, Wake and Stanford should be wins. Clemson, I have absolutely no clue. Could be a rock fight, could be a pillow fight, but it's two programs not as good as they were a few years ago. Very simple.

Two programs not as good as a few years ago? Clemson is in a down cycle, or maybe with Trevor Lawrence it was in a weird up cycle and is reverting to the mean. ND could very well be in the top 10 when those teams play. Not happy with offensive execution/play calling, but ND isn't exactly in a down cycle.

 

[NDPhilly]

SP+ has ND tied at #9 with Bama right now with Clemson at #13, which makes sense to me. Clemson shot themselves in the foot against both Duke and FSU, and could easily be undefeated. That game will be a rock fight.

 

[AKRowdy]

If they finish less than 9-3, it'll be disappointing. Pitt, Wake and Stanford should be wins. Clemson, I have absolutely no clue. Could be a rock fight, could be a pillow fight, but it's two programs not as good as they were a few years ago. Very simple.

Idk I think this ND team would beat the 2020 team and definitely beat the team from last year.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Two programs not as good as a few years ago? Clemson is in a down cycle, or maybe with Trevor Lawrence it was in a weird up cycle and is reverting to the mean. ND could very well be in the top 10 when those teams play. Not happy with offensive execution/play calling, but ND isn't exactly in a down cycle.

I didn't say down cycle. It's not 2020 or 2018.

The form those two offenses are in right now, people might be sticking their fingers in their throats by halftime.

 

[stlnd01]

Clemson game's gonna be like 9-6.

 

[notredomer23]

ND-Clemson could very well be a passing of the torch game. ND on paper should win, but every time ND has that opportunity to solidify their position as an elite power in CFB, they shoot themselves in the foot. If Clemson loses, that will be another 3+ loss season and another recruiting class in the teens with zero transfers in.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Clemson game's gonna be like 9-6.

Right. Clemson play Miami this weekend just in time for Miami's annual combustion, too. Then they play NC State before ND, and NC State just lost to a Duke team that completed 4 passes the entire game.

ND and Clemson could very well be a shit show.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think that despite all his flaws, BK showed that this team could be a playoff-type team.

And I think the expectations for Freeman are so high because they hired him coming off those BK years, and the fanbase expects that train to continue. The risk of Freeman's hire was that he absolutely seems to be the guy who could recruit at a higher level, which may in turn lead to playoff victories...but you also run the risk that he doesn't offer the continuity the fanbase expects and the program takes a step back because he isn't the same experienced lifer that BK was.

Effectively, it's the fanbase saying "this is where we expect to be, so you better not hire someone who messes with that standard." This, to me, is the macro issue (and the source of my frustration sometimes), but also ignores some micro-level crap going on behind the scenes that may have been mitigating factors in the "we expect playoff appearances" mentality BK gave the fanbase (like his failure to maintain any semblance of elite QB play, his rough tendency to lose against highly-ranked opponents in spectacular fashion - Clemson in the ACC 'ship, Bama and Clemson in the playoffs, Miami 2017, Michigan 2021 - and his lukewarm approach to recruiting) that cuts against the "Freeman inherited a well-oiled machine!" narrative.

The well oiled machine comment is about more than just the roster and recruiting. It's the entire operation. It's the entire football program. It's the entire culture, the standards, and expectations for what these student athletes deserve.

There is so much more that goes into where the entire program is at today versus where it was in 2009. Quite frankly, it gets very disingenuous when we boil it down to just the roster. Heck, even Freeman chose ND over LSU (LSU's recruited roster certainly was better) for those things that Kelly had done or was in the process of doing. And, if he sticks around awhile, he'll have a Gug renovation to thank Kelly for.

The BK era at Notre Dame oversaw massive changes to almost every aspect of the football program. Whether that be nutrition, S&C, facilities, culture, expanded staff, staff compensation, etc. For all the complaints about his recruiting, he did expand the recruiting offices. Bill Rees was the first of his kind. He was the one that hired Freeman and then expanded the office further for Freeman with Bowden. He then did it again when he hired Brown to be Bowden's equivalent for the offensive side of the ball.

Whether we like the guy or not. Whether we're embarrassed by him now down in Baton Rouge. Whether we're supremely disappointed that he never won a Natty. Or, recruited to our liking. BK was a champion for ND with regards to getting the admin to put money into the program and a process in place for ND to consistently compete in today's college football landscape. That is what landed Freeman.

There is a monumental difference between the two situations.

BK can be both a world class asshole and a massive boon for the ND football program.

 

[Blazers46]

In the very same offseason we hired Freeman, Oklahoma and Oregon also both hired first-time head coaches. They are not small-time programs. Ohio State, Georgia, Oklahoma's previous coach (Riley): All first-time head coaches.

I think reasonable people can disagree on the wisdom of hiring a first-time coach at Notre Dame, but it's hardly some desperation move for a high-profile program like ours. It's a reasonable choice in this day and age, with pros and cons depending on the coach involved. But if you make it you probably need to accept there'll be a little on-the-job training (and you probably should make sure he can afford experienced coordinators).

The question is if the bigger potential payoff is worth the risk of that training. Stay tuned!

I feel like we are still comparing apples and oranges.

Lanning spent a few years years in the SEC at Georgia and briefly at Alabama
Venables was seen as one of the best DCs in the country for years Clemson.

Freeman spent 3 years at Cinci.

Of the 3 Freeman might have more swag but resume wise the lesser.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

The well oiled machine comment is about more than just the roster and recruiting. It's the entire operation. It's the entire football program. It's the entire culture, the standards, and expectations for what these student athletes deserve.

There is so much more that goes into where the entire program is at today versus where it was in 2009. Quite frankly, it gets very disingenuous when we boil it down to just the roster. Heck, even Freeman chose ND over LSU (LSU's recruited roster certainly was better) for those things that Kelly had done or was in the process of doing. And, if he sticks around awhile, he'll have a Gug renovation to thank Kelly for.

The BK era at Notre Dame oversaw massive changes to almost every aspect of the football program. Whether that be nutrition, S&C, facilities, culture, expanded staff, staff compensation, etc. For all the complaints about his recruiting, he did expand the recruiting offices. Bill Rees was the first of his kind. He was the one that hired Freeman and then expanded the office further for Freeman with Bowden. He then did it again when he hired Brown to be Bowden's equivalent for the offensive side of the ball.

Whether we like the guy or not. Whether we're embarrassed by him now down in Baton Rouge. Whether we're supremely disappointed that he never won a Natty. Or, recruited to our liking. BK was a champion for ND with regards to getting the admin to put money into the program and a process in place for ND to consistently compete in today's college football landscape. That is what landed Freeman.

There is a monumental difference between the two situations.

BK can be both a world class asshole and a massive boon for the ND football program.

Very well stated.

Brian Kelly stabilized the program. He had to stop a tremendous amount of bleeding first that started well before him. He walked into a program that couldn't catch it's own breath in November games let alone win one. He self audited after 2016 and proved he had some reach by hiring Long and Elko. There were a lot of things he didn't accomplish, but there was a heavy amount of things that he did and you've stated those.

He's an asswipe, but he was our asswipe, and he left things better than he found them which is more than most can say when it comes to the profession.

 

[PutuporShutup]

The well oiled machine comment is about more than just the roster and recruiting. It's the entire operation. It's the entire football program. It's the entire culture, the standards, and expectations for what these student athletes deserve.

There is so much more that goes into where the entire program is at today versus where it was in 2009. Quite frankly, it gets very disingenuous when we boil it down to just the roster. Heck, even Freeman chose ND over LSU (LSU's recruited roster certainly was better) for those things that Kelly had done or was in the process of doing. And, if he sticks around awhile, he'll have a Gug renovation to thank Kelly for.

The BK era at Notre Dame oversaw massive changes to almost every aspect of the football program. Whether that be nutrition, S&C, facilities, culture, expanded staff, staff compensation, etc. For all the complaints about his recruiting, he did expand the recruiting offices. Bill Rees was the first of his kind. He was the one that hired Freeman and then expanded the office further for Freeman with Bowden. He then did it again when he hired Brown to be Bowden's equivalent for the offensive side of the ball.

Whether we like the guy or not. Whether we're embarrassed by him now down in Baton Rouge. Whether we're supremely disappointed that he never won a Natty. Or, recruited to our liking. BK was a champion for ND with regards to getting the admin to put money into the program and a process in place for ND to consistently compete in today's college football landscape. That is what landed Freeman.

There is a monumental difference between the two situations.

BK can be both a world class asshole and a massive boon for the ND football program.

This,

Only thing I will add around players is Kelly built the foundation of success needed to consistently win with the Oline and Dline. You can't consistently win without both being good. Freeman inherited talent and depth at both lines, that put him in a spot to have 10+ wins each of his first two seasons as coach. Yes we didn't have the skill talent last year or even this year that we'll have in a year or two, but when you have really good lines, you still have a winning formula vs most teams.

Kelly inherited skill, but a DL and OLine that were not properly developed or coached up. It took him a few years to build them up.

 

[IrishLax]

Probably a big part of it too. Seven years of being in the conversation / highly rated at some point in the season raises the bar.

 

[Bluto]

The well oiled machine comment is about more than just the roster and recruiting. It's the entire operation. It's the entire football program. It's the entire culture, the standards, and expectations for what these student athletes deserve.

There is so much more that goes into where the entire program is at today versus where it was in 2009. Quite frankly, it gets very disingenuous when we boil it down to just the roster. Heck, even Freeman chose ND over LSU (LSU's recruited roster certainly was better) for those things that Kelly had done or was in the process of doing. And, if he sticks around awhile, he'll have a Gug renovation to thank Kelly for.

The BK era at Notre Dame oversaw massive changes to almost every aspect of the football program. Whether that be nutrition, S&C, facilities, culture, expanded staff, staff compensation, etc. For all the complaints about his recruiting, he did expand the recruiting offices. Bill Rees was the first of his kind. He was the one that hired Freeman and then expanded the office further for Freeman with Bowden. He then did it again when he hired Brown to be Bowden's equivalent for the offensive side of the ball.

Whether we like the guy or not. Whether we're embarrassed by him now down in Baton Rouge. Whether we're supremely disappointed that he never won a Natty. Or, recruited to our liking. BK was a champion for ND with regards to getting the admin to put money into the program and a process in place for ND to consistently compete in today's college football landscape. That is what landed Freeman.

There is a monumental difference between the two situations.

BK can be both a world class asshole and a massive boon for the ND football program.

I would imagine Swarbrick had as much to do with making all that happen as BK.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Probably a big part of it too. Seven years of being in the conversation / highly rated at some point in the season raises the bar.

Apropos of nothing, what a tough look for PSU.

1-8 against OSU. 3-6 against Michigan. Woof.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Apropos of nothing, what a tough look for PSU.

1-8 against OSU. 3-6 against Michigan. Woof.

Franklin was given a big extension too. All because he *could* have gone to SC, Florida or whatever.

Mind boggling what this sport has come to. "Here's tens more millions for keeping us third best in the conference."

 

[bobbyok1]

Probably a big part of it too. Seven years of being in the conversation / highly rated at some point in the season raises the bar.

For sure. Absolutely part of the issue. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. ND fans are more than ready to win the title and we see that we are not so far from it happening. Tough to be patient, but that is exactly what is required. Patient and supportive, giving Freeman a fair shot to make it happen.

If Freeman cannot make it happen AFTER a fair shot, then we move on. But he needs a fair shot FIRST. Go Irish! ☘️