Expectations

[NDWarrior]

I think one reason for the high expectations is honestly because of how well Freeman led teams have looked in some of these big time games -- close games with OSU; crushing USC and Clemson -- makes people realize that the potential is there to not just get to the playoffs but win some of these big games.

Yes so as I have said, seeing more consistency is what I’m looking for. (it was same with BK, but MF is a better recruiter and motivator so expectations are even higher). If we can have the Clemson ‘22 and USC blowouts) why can’t we be more consistent and beat Duke AND Louisville? I get perfection is hard but we seem to only get these blowouts and season turnarounds after we have 2 or more losses and the pressure is off for the season, and we’re out of CFP contention. Winning is hard and MF gonna need to figure out how to get more consistency. The one thing that will likely change all I say here is the new 12-team playoff format will almost certainly allow a 2- (maybe a 3-?) loss ND team into the new playoff system so they can afford to miss (too much under current system) a few wins, figure it out, and get their groove on and then do who knows what in the playoffs! ☘️🚀

 

[NDWarrior]

Yes so as I have said, seeing more consistency is what I’m looking for. (it was same with BK, but MF is a better recruiter and motivator so expectations are even higher). If we can have the Clemson ‘22 and USC blowouts) why can’t we be more consistent and beat Duke AND Louisville? I get perfection is hard but we seem to only get these blowouts and season turnarounds after we have 2 or more losses and the pressure is off for the season, and we’re out of CFP contention. Winning is hard and MF gonna need to figure out how to get more consistency. The one thing that will likely change all I say here is the new 12-team playoff format will almost certainly allow a 2- (maybe a 3-?) loss ND team into the new playoff system so they can afford to miss (too much under current system) a few wins, figure it out, and get their groove on and then do who knows what in the playoffs! ☘️🚀

And I think we’re getting closer… If we can just get the O going. It’s hard and it’s rare, but I want to see an FSU Jameis Winston, an LSU Joe Burrow, or an Alabama Mack Jones-driven killer O for ND just one season and see our offense truly excel. A team with that kind of O and our recent strong Ds is likely winning a Natty! ☘️🚀

 

[Irishdrunk]

I think the expectations are a bit higher because we were sold on continuation.

You know these fucking ND analysts hyped Freeman without any critical thinking put forth despite this being their real jobs. All these buffoons could see a miserable Coach in Kelly and a nice fresh face in Freeman. All they could see is Kelly’s faults. All they could see in Freeman is their hopes and aspirations that nothing will be lost in losing Kelly and Freeman will correct everything.

Each of these two years these smartest in the room types basically felt that ND was in serious CFO contentions. “I just don’t see where we lose” was typical.

Yet if they got their heads out of their asses, they would see Vegas didn’t agree and National Analysts saw the downside in the inexperienced HC succeeding the experienced HC.

This should be fair warning that ND fans shouldn’t be sucked into these homers masquerading as “Analysts” and think for themselves.

Freeman has lots of wood to chop to get us consistently in the Top 10.

 

[Armyirish47]

Great questions.

I think that despite the talent on the team that BK took over the floor seemed much lower because of how Charlie's tenure ended.

BK left after an 11-1 season and had taken the program to a title game and 2 playoffs.

So, when MF took over, the floor seemed much higher than when BK took over

But, that 11-1 record was deceiving. They could and probably should have lost to to Toledo and Virginia Tech. And, there wasn't any talent returning at QB or WR.

So, I think MF has been essentially penalized by both the success (wins) and failures (recruiting) of the Kelly era.

I think BK benefitted from following a bunch of poor coaches, so a few 8 and 9 win seasons seemed like heaven.

When MF took over the job the perception was that the floor and ceiling were higher than when BK took over.

Yes, MF has learned on the job and made mistakes. But, I already trust him way more than BK to max out the potential of this program.

He recruits better. He thus far doesn't get blown out in almost every big game. He's not an asshole to people. He's not transactional in his relationships. He genuinely seems to love ND and "get it."

Whether or not he gets us over the hump remains to be seen.

But, our fan base should support him and feel lucky to have him.

That doesn't mean he isn't above criticism. But, the criticism should be legitimate and not irrational.

Very well said. A couple things I would add is that the perception piece was very real, so real that he started with a preseason #5 ranking that was and continues to be an anchor. How can you not be a "failure" if you don't live up to a preseason ranking right?

And the other thing is that as fans we are often narrative driven, and I think most everyone thought all that BK was missing was a little more care on recruitment, and a little more motivation and bingo bango Notre Dame is a juggernaut. ENTER FREEMAN <stirring intro music>.

But BK was hired to build a program, and he did that pretty dang well as we would have guessed when he stepped out of central casting for the ND head job to begin with. Freeman faces a different task, not to build a program but to take it up just one more notch that seemingly was almost already there. When the reality is that space is huge for any coach, to say nothing of a first timer.

I would rather root for someone like Freeman to get there eventually, lumps included, than have to shower after winning with someone like Urban.

 

[IrishTusker]

You know these fucking ND analysts hyped Freeman without any critical thinking put forth despite this being their real jobs. All these buffoons could see a miserable Coach in Kelly and a nice fresh face in Freeman. All they could see is Kelly’s faults. All they could see in Freeman is their hopes and aspirations that nothing will be lost in losing Kelly and Freeman will correct everything.

Each of these two years these smartest in the room types basically felt that ND was in serious CFO contentions. “I just don’t see where we lose” was typical.

Yet if they got their heads out of their asses, they would see Vegas didn’t agree and National Analysts saw the downside in the inexperienced HC succeeding the experienced HC.

This should be fair warning that ND fans shouldn’t be sucked into these homers masquerading as “Analysts” and think for themselves.

Freeman has lots of wood to chop to get us consistently in the Top 10.

What is the point here? Kelly chose to leave. This makes it sound as though he was fired and replaced by Freeman.

 

[stlnd01]

Very well said. A couple things I would add is that the perception piece was very real, so real that he started with a preseason #5 ranking that was and continues to be an anchor. How can you not be a "failure" if you don't live up to a preseason ranking right?

That #5 preseason ranking last year and the #1 recruiting class ranking like nine months out from Signing Day set crazy expectations on both fronts. They did not match reality.
Which does not excuse losing to Marshall, of course.

 

[Irishdrunk]

What is the point here? Kelly chose to leave. This makes it sound as though he was fired and replaced by Freeman.

No not at all. But to the Analysts it was a de facto “Good Riddance - Kelly is holding ND back from its true potential”. And no critical thoughts whatsoever that hiring such a young and inexperienced HC has a host of risks - these risks we now see resulting in losses when they shouldn’t happen.

The issue I am making isn’t that Freeman sucks. It’s that at the very least he is very inexperienced. And that the loudmouth ND Analysts projected their own wishful thinking that Freeman would improve on Kelly because according to them Kelly held the program back.

Not one of these baffoons - who charge money for their bloviating - ever spoke critical concerns on the risk of elevating an inexperienced Freeman.

I do think a good chunk of the fan base’s false expectations rests with these suck-ups who are really just super fans and not critically thinking analysts. They created the misguided expectations and drowned out fans that voiced concerns contrary to their uncritical analysis and opinions.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison of the two HC. Kelly had been a HC since the 80s at lower levels before advancing to D1 w/ CMU & finally Cincy. MF had never been a HC so one would think BK would have higher expectations...except he was inheriting a program fail by another first time HC that was talented but didn’t know how to win. So that’s why BK pretty much got a pass in year one when he had an inexplicable loss to Tulsa (w/ a rookie mistake decision to allow Rees to throw the ball when they could’ve won w/ a FG) and a blowout loss to Navy. Finally beating SC helped us forget those losses. He accomplished what no ND HC since Bob Davie had done…beat SC. That’s how pathetic the Irish were.

Looking back, BK took awhile to truly steady the program. They were still losing close games to inferior teams (NW, UL in 2014) or blowing games late (FSU bowl game ‘11, Stanford ‘15 to name a few). Then the wheels came off in 2016 & he survived it. It’s fine to respect the fact that BK had ND winning all the games they were expected to win post-2016 but that doesn’t mean we should have amnesia for those first seven seasons.

When MF was named HC, we all knew he would have a talented roster & good culture. We also knew that he could maintain that performance while his record looked worse simply b/c the schedule was going to get tougher. Pre-season rankings (meaningless as they are) were based on 2021 BK-led Irish. ND finished lower than expectations so it’s fair to say ND was overrated I suppose b/c most seasons ND outperformed their pre-season rankings. But MF was given grace after the Marshall & even the Stanford losses. The Clemson win went a long way in healing those wounds. I wonder if BK would’ve insisted on Rees getting a transfer QB for ‘22 had he remained HC at ND?

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

The major difference I have noticed between Kelly and Freeman.

Kelly teams were never amped up.
Beat the teams you were supposed to beat never prove you belonged on the same field as the elite teams.

Freeman is the exact opposite.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Brian Kelly never gave me an indication at any point that he was a "man of the people" type of head coach. From the purple faced sideline demeanor to his arrogant post game comments after Tulsa, the dude rubbed me wrong from the beginning. Nevertheless, he was the HC at Notre Dame, so he was the dude I had to support one way or the other.

Freeman connects with just about everyone. That's the difference. There has certainly never been a guy quite like him in the seat in my lifetime and definitely not in this century. I always want Notre Dame to win, but I want Notre Dame to win even more because I want Marcus Freeman to win. That may cause certain levels of bias, but I do think that things need to progress forward because if they do not some difficult choices are going to need to be made. There are assistant coaches with families. It's a hard end of the business.

Recruiting and public outreach/fan connection have taken a step up with this guy. At a certain point, the rest has to come together where it counts. I think maybe an expanded playoff field could help them. A lot of unexpected things can happen in a bigger field. We'll see. Not long ago I figured if Kelly couldn't win an NC at Notre Dame, nobody could. I don't know if Freeman can or will, but as a middle aged fan with a lot more important shit going on in life, I've put all my chips in the middle on him.

I hope that he truly is the person he projects himself to be.

 

[stlnd01]

Recruiting and public outreach/fan connection have taken a step up with this guy. At a certain point, the rest has to come together where it counts. I think maybe an expanded playoff field could help them. A lot of unexpected things can happen in a bigger field. We'll see. Not long ago I figured if Kelly couldn't win an NC at Notre Dame, nobody could. I don't know if Freeman can or will, but as a middle aged fan with a lot more important shit going on in life, I've put all my chips in the middle on him.

I hope that he truly is the person he projects himself to be.

A 12-team playoff will be hard for any team that doesn't have the absolute elite-ist of elite talent to ultimately win, but having watched Freeman's teams play against, now, four top ten teams over two seasons, I think I like his chances of actually winning some playoff games better than I did Kelly's. He seems to have a better way of getting the most out of his guys on the biggest stages.

The trick will be getting to that stage - though 12 teams is going to be a lot easier for us than four.

 

[NDRock]

A 12-team playoff will be hard for any team that doesn't have the absolute elite-ist of elite talent to ultimately win, but having watched Freeman's teams play against, now, four top ten teams over two seasons, I think I like his chances of actually winning some playoff games better than I did Kelly's. He seems to have a better way of getting the most out of his guys on the biggest stages.

The trick will be getting to that stage - though 12 teams is going to be a lot easier for us than four.

I prefer a coach who can win the games against the elite teams over what Kelly gave us his last 5 years. 12 team playoff will allow for the occasional letdown over a lesser opponent.

 

[PutuporShutup]

I prefer a coach who can win the games against the elite teams over what Kelly gave us his last 5 years. 12 team playoff will allow for the occasional letdown over a lesser opponent.

I think this is a good point. Freeman clearly knows how to have his team ready to play the best teams but struggles to have them ready every week.

He has to make improvements game day coaching and figure out who is going to run the offense. Stuff we all know.

 

[CrystalHead]

Has Freeman made some inexcusable mistakes... yes. Did we expect some mistakes as a first time head coach... yes. We just didn't know what they would be and what they would look like. Here is why I'm on the Freeman train. He knows he made mistakes but here is why I think he will be one of the greats at ND. He makes a mistake and he owns it, he doesn't make excuses and REFUSES to let anyone else play the victim, including himself. He actually learns from them and makes everyone else learn as well. Watching this board pre USC game there was very little optimism and not many were fired up for this. He overcame a horrible Louisville game and avoided the hangover. We saw a glimpse of what is coming, the timeout when he saw we weren't getting back in time and would be offsides was on top of his progressing in game coaching. I bet he gets that message through to the team on what the young guys need to do in that situation next time. He chooses not to play the damn victim and requires that from the team he coaches. That's why he will in my opinion be one the greats here.

 

[NDohio]

I think there are a few variables when discussing expectations of the early years for these two:

Social media/media - This is a way different environment today than what it was when BK took over. Those people that have a very negative outlook, during BK's start, were mostly just yelling into the wind. Twitter was just getting started, message boards were a thing, but they were kind of a niche for the die hard fans. Today, the negative folks have platforms that enable them to yell to the world. And those folks seem to post more often. I believe podcasts are a big part of this as well. How many ND specific podcasts are there? All of these pods are screaming playoffs or bust. Once ND lost to Louisville, there are a lot of people that feel the season is a bust.

Playoffs - When BK took over, we were still in the BCS era. Regular season records mattered more. A team had a successful season even of they were not playing for a national championship. As long as you were getting to a major bowl and showing well at these bowls most people were good with that season. If you were fortunate enough t make it to the national championship then it was an awesome season. Now, if you don't make the CFP then your season is a disappointment. NY6 bowls just don't mean whet they used to. Players sit out bowls - New Years Day doesn't have the same vibe it used to - there are too many bowl games overall - it's just really different. ND has a good chance of having a 10-2 season and for some that isn't success. I am curious how the expanded playoff will change this. ND would still be in the playoff hunt if there were expanded playoffs this year. Would the overall feeling of the season be different in this scenario?

Marcus Freeman - I think Marcus' personality and high expectation mindset has pushed the expectations of the fanbase higher. He is a dynamic personality whereas BK was never a personality that people gravitated to. I think Marcus is a bit of victim of his own high standards and likability.

I have been around a while. I became a ND fan in the early seventies. ND has always had very high expectations, but in those early days the team often met those expectations. It has been a long time. This fan base is really starved for a championship. The last five years of BK gave a lot of us a feeling that maybe this program can achieve the greatness that we feel is deserved. Marcus came in on the heels of that success (even though BK fell short every year) and expectations were ND wasn't going to miss a beat. That first game at OSU, while a loss, raised those expectations even higher. Then Marshall happened...

 

[Katzenboyer]

I think that despite all his flaws, BK showed that this team could be a playoff-type team.

And I think the expectations for Freeman are so high because they hired him coming off those BK years, and the fanbase expects that train to continue. The risk of Freeman's hire was that he absolutely seems to be the guy who could recruit at a higher level, which may in turn lead to playoff victories...but you also run the risk that he doesn't offer the continuity the fanbase expects and the program takes a step back because he isn't the same experienced lifer that BK was.

Effectively, it's the fanbase saying "this is where we expect to be, so you better not hire someone who messes with that standard." This, to me, is the macro issue (and the source of my frustration sometimes), but also ignores some micro-level crap going on behind the scenes that may have been mitigating factors in the "we expect playoff appearances" mentality BK gave the fanbase (like his failure to maintain any semblance of elite QB play, his rough tendency to lose against highly-ranked opponents in spectacular fashion - Clemson in the ACC 'ship, Bama and Clemson in the playoffs, Miami 2017, Michigan 2021 - and his lukewarm approach to recruiting) that cuts against the "Freeman inherited a well-oiled machine!" narrative.

 

[irish4ever]

Once the 12 team playoff starts I fully expect ND to be making playoffs just about every year. Like 4/5. I think 10-2 ND makes playoffs most years. Maybe I'm crazy, but that's where I'm at.

They would THIS year for certain. With getting 4 more wins from now and the ONLY "egg" laid by the Irish (Louisville), they would be a no brainer to be added to the top 12!

 

[irish4ever]

Think about next year's opportunity to get there .... the 1st game @ Texas A&M against Dumbo Fisher, @ Ga. Tech mid-Oct., F$U @ home and @ U$C (hopefully, post Caleb Williams). The rest is VERY manageable!

 

[IRISHDODGER]

They would THIS year for certain. With getting 4 more wins from now and the ONLY "egg" laid by the Irish (Louisville), they would be a no brainer to be added to the top 12!

Assuming they win out which will still prove difficult

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

This team has played 8 games and it's the middle of October. The first game was in Ireland. The last four were all at night against ranked opponents, the latter having only happened six times in program history.

Despite that, despite some of the roster holes from the previous regime, despite some very glaring in game mistakes, they're sitting at 6-2. I'm feeling fortunate that they ended up winning that Duke game because I think had they not pulled that out we're looking at a much different situation and narrative.

Just keep going week to week and win as many as you can. Then see what shakes out in the bowl game and win that.

 

[irish4ever]

Assuming they win out which will still prove difficult

Yes, that is what I'm saying ... 10-2 as was stated in the thread means that the Irish would win the final 4 games to get to that 10-2 record. I'm not saying they will, but if they do ....

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Beat the Bye Week.

1-0 vs Pitt.

 

[Blazers46]

The expectation is to always be better by getting better… building upon last year… etc. Love or hate BK he left ND after going 54-9 his last 5 season and finishing in the top 10 three times.

BK inherited a mess and left it with more national relevance than when he left it.

The expectation with that should be ND would be a high profile job and they would look for a high profile coach. But instead they hire a first time head coach. ND football had the momentum, but the Admin was hiring like they just let go Weis and couldn’t find any high profile candidates that could take advantage of this momentum. The admin hired like they were in rebuild mode, not reload mode.

Giving Freeman time is just conceding that ND wasn’t a high profile destination in the first place. Once freeman was hired the expectations sort of went to rebuilding. If we are giving Freeman a few years to learn how to coach the expectations should be to learn and we will see how you are doing year 4. Stupid move but with the move that should be the expectations.

 

[stlnd01]

The expectation is to always be better by getting better… building upon last year… etc. Love or hate BK he left ND after going 54-9 his last 5 season and finishing in the top 10 three times.

BK inherited a mess and left it with more national relevance than when he left it.

The expectation with that should be ND would be a high profile job and they would look for a high profile coach. But instead they hire a first time head coach. ND football had the momentum, but the Admin was hiring like they just let go Weis and couldn’t find any high profile candidates that could take advantage of this momentum. The admin hired like they were in rebuild mode, not reload mode.

Giving Freeman time is just conceding that ND wasn’t a high profile destination in the first place. Once freeman was hired the expectations sort of went to rebuilding. If we are giving Freeman a few years to learn how to coach the expectations should be to learn and we will see how you are doing year 4. Stupid move but with the move that should be the expectations.

In the very same offseason we hired Freeman, Oklahoma and Oregon also both hired first-time head coaches. They are not small-time programs. Ohio State, Georgia, Oklahoma's previous coach (Riley): All first-time head coaches.

I think reasonable people can disagree on the wisdom of hiring a first-time coach at Notre Dame, but it's hardly some desperation move for a high-profile program like ours. It's a reasonable choice in this day and age, with pros and cons depending on the coach involved. But if you make it you probably need to accept there'll be a little on-the-job training (and you probably should make sure he can afford experienced coordinators).

The question is if the bigger potential payoff is worth the risk of that training. Stay tuned!

 

[IrishinSyria]

I have two theories about this. One is the charitable version—Kelly had a track record of success, people were willing to be patient and give him time to get his players in and implement his system, because they knew it could work. Freeman, on the other hand, is a new head coach and people don’t want to see if he can learn on the job at ND.

to my mind, freeman’s age is a positive for a bunch of reasons, but that line of thinking at least makes sense to me.

 

[Free Manera]

Speaking of expectations. McMurphy has ND vs. LSU in his Bowl Projections.

 

[NDRock]

In the very same offseason we hired Freeman, Oklahoma and Oregon also both hired first-time head coaches. They are not small-time programs. Ohio State, Georgia, Oklahoma's previous coach (Riley): All first-time head coaches.

I think reasonable people can disagree on the wisdom of hiring a first-time coach at Notre Dame, but it's hardly some desperation move for a high-profile program like ours. It's a reasonable choice in this day and age, with pros and cons depending on the coach involved. But if you make it you probably need to accept there'll be a little on-the-job training (and you probably should make sure he can afford experienced coordinators).

The question is if the bigger potential payoff is worth the risk of that training. Stay tuned!

I didn't mind the Freeman hiring. I just wish we followed the Oklahoma model of spending big on an Offensive Coordinator so your first time, defensive minded coach, has a better chance to succeed.

 

[Free Manera]

I always felt like the handwringing over hiring a first time head coach was outdated. Around half the NFL head coaches are 45 and under. Young coaches are the new normal.

And I don't think the error in hiring Parker was that he was inexperienced per se. It's just that he wasn't good. There isn't a single other power 5 program that would have hired him as OC. And Freeman didn't even want to hire him. He was like the 5th choice.

 

[stlnd01]

I always felt like the handwringing over hiring a first time head coach was outdated. Around half the NFL head coaches are 45 and under. Young coaches are the new normal.

And I don't think the error in hiring Parker was that he was inexperienced per se. It's just that he wasn't good. There isn't a single other power 5 program that would have hired him as OC. And Freeman didn't even want to hire him. He was like the 5th choice.

Yeah. I think there are real advantages - especially in this era of recruiting and wide-open transfers - to having a younger head coach who can connect with players and get them to buy in and, who, frankly, is still willing to put in the work required to build a roster in modern college football. And yes some of those guys are going to be first-timers.

But then, especially if the head coach comes from the other side of the ball, you need to invest in coordinators who can make the most of that talent.

 

[Free Manera]

Yeah. I think there are real advantages - especially in this era of recruiting and wide-open transfers - to having a younger head coach who can connect with players and get them to buy in and, who, frankly, is still willing to put in the work required to build a roster in modern college football. And yes some of those guys are going to be first-timers.

But then, especially if the head coach comes from the other side of the ball, you need to invest in coordinators who can make the most of that talent.

When his starting QB isn't out, the guy from Utah always seemed put together dangerous offenses with power running and a bunch of 3 stars. I wonder what he would cost?