Demand for a 13th Game

[Cali_domer]

I've said this a few times and nobody has responded. Why not "The Notre Dame - Big 12 Classic" played during conference championship week against the Big 12 champion in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City?

Sounds great but we need the Big 12 to agree.

 

[IrishLion]

There's a lot more to the alumni experience than the academic side. There's a personal connection. A sense of pride. And yes, a piece of that is tied to the football program and its traditions (including independence, playing Navy, natural grass ).

EDIT: I'm NOT turning this into a "you didn't go there so you can't comment" thing. I mentioned that I thought there would be a divide but after that basic comment I'm just responding to a direct question.

Oh I didn't take it that way at all. And I didn't attend ND, so I'm generally curious, not trying to challenge your belief.

I'm just struggling with comprehending how this might cause alumni to get all riled up.

I understand your points about traditions, but that still seems like more of a "football fan" thing than an "alumni" thing.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

Who would we schedule? Anybody who is anywhere near decent isn't going to touch that weekend just in case they are in the conference championship.

 

[wizards8507]

Why would the Big 12 risk an extra game that's not against their own conference?

If they play a conference championship, at least the winner is a conference team. Having their champ play ND would be an unnecessary risk. If ND wins, their conference champ is hung out to dry. Why would they provide a non-conference opponent that opportunity?

A couple of things.

1. If they really believe in their round robin format "One True Champion," then they'd need a way to get that 13th game and have it NOT be a conference champion. I personally believe that a 10 team round robin schedule is the closest thing we have to perfection in college football and I wish more conferences were going that direction instead of the exact opposite.

2. You could say the same thing about a conference championship game if the "wrong team" wins. If Georgia Tech, Wisconsin, Arizona, or Missouri had won their championship games, those teams might have been left out of the playoff too.

 

[wizards8507]

I understand your points about traditions, but that still seems like more of a "football fan" thing than an "alumni" thing.

Some of them are, sure. But, for example, our relationship with Navy had a profound impact on the academic and operational side of things (the common perception being that the University would have had to shut its doors if not for Navy). Our independence arose out of disrespect that other folks had for our Catholic identity and (perceived) lack of academic quality. The football traditions have their roots in non-athletic university history.

 

[wizards8507]

Who would we schedule? Anybody who is anywhere near decent isn't going to touch that weekend just in case they are in the conference championship.

BYU

 

[RDU Irish]

Take the concept further. Say ND went to a 10 game schedule but only played powerhouses? Five ACC games, USC, Navy and three more games focused on a top team from Big 12, SEC and B1G (OSU, MSU, UM). Plenty of SoS and more byes to focus on academics (politically) and healing (realistically). You dramatically increase your chance of winning them all and going to the playoffs. The problem lies in the reduced money from two extra games. While I would like to think more playoff payoffs would make up for that, it probably doesn't.

 

[IrishLion]

A couple of things.

1. If they really believe in their round robin format "One True Champion," then they'd need a way to get that 13th game and have it NOT be a conference champion. I personally believe that a 10 team round robin schedule is the closest thing we have to perfection in college football and I wish more conferences were going that direction instead of the exact opposite.

Yes, but playing a non-conference opponent as their final game would still be a ridiculous risk to take. Timing of losses doesn't matter as much as it used to, but it still does matter. I wouldn't support my conference taking such a scheduling risk just for the sake of the 13th game, especially right before decision time from the committee.

2. You could say the same thing about a conference championship game if the "wrong team" wins. If Georgia Tech, Wisconsin, Arizona, or Missouri had won their championship games, those teams might have been left out of the playoff too.

Yes, but that was my initial point. At least in that instance, your "wrong team" is still a conference team. At least it's not some outside opponent that has ruined the playoff hopes. Why risk your own teams at the benefit of an outside source, when you can risk your own team and still prop up your own conference?

 

[wizards8507]

Why risk your own teams at the benefit of an outside source, when you can risk your own team and still prop up your own conference?

Because "One. True. Champion." is based on competitive integrity and is in no way subject to compromise for what's in the best financial interest of the key stakeholders.

 

[RDU Irish]

I've said this a few times and nobody has responded. Why not "The Notre Dame - Big 12 Classic" played during conference championship week against the Big 12 champion in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City?

It is more a last impression thing than a number of games played thing. The Big12 quote earlier gives a nice look at their mentality. An ND final would fly in the face of this mentality since their top team would now be at risk of losing to ND and missing the playoffs. Having their declared champ make some final case seems like it bears way more weight than it should in the process, however I cannot imagine why they would prefer to play ND versus just scheduling a championship game.

BYU vs ND would be a better bet. They at least have tradition and would benefit from exposure that week. I just can't see the value in making our perennially short manned team play 13 games. Trade this game for a bye week post Navy every.... single.... year.

 

[aubeirish]

Join the ACC. There are no real downsides if you think about it.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

RDU, I'd put it at less than 1% chance that a 10-0 ND team (regardless of SOS) would get in. I'm not even sold on 11-0 that you mentioned first. Other championship caliber teams are playing (and winning) 11+ games a year. The ones that get into the playoffs are winning 12+. And they also get to add "Conference Champion" to their resume. Sorry, I just don't see how your scenario works with getting ND into the playoff. Playing less games doesn't strike me a positive when comparing resumes.

 

[Black Irish]

I would think that ND would be pushing real hard to get the playoff expanded to 6 or 8 teams so that their independent status doesn't hurt them as much. After this year, I'm sure ND won't be the only school pressing for this (hello, TCU and Baylor, Big 12 in general).

 

[Cali_domer]

I would think that ND would be pushing real hard to get the playoff expanded to 6 or 8 teams so that their independent status doesn't hurt them as much. After this year, I'm sure ND won't be the only school pressing for this (hello, TCU and Baylor, Big 12 in general).

I agree ND can/will push and the Big 12 also but ND is a singular school(powerful) and the Big 12 is the smallest conference out of the P-5. So it will take more then these entity's to get it done, we will need the Big boy's (SEC or Big ten) to make it happen.

 

[Buster Bluth]

If the ACC let's Navy in at the 16th member and puts Navy, Pittsburgh, Boston College, and Miami in Notre Dame's division then I'm 100% for it. Replace Stanford with Miami as a season-ender and it's good to go.

 

[aubeirish]

I would think that ND would be pushing real hard to get the playoff expanded to 6 or 8 teams so that their independent status doesn't hurt them as much. After this year, I'm sure ND won't be the only school pressing for this (hello, TCU and Baylor, Big 12 in general).

It sure looks like it's going to go to 8 at some point. That formula would certainly mean that conference champions will have automatic bids. I think joining the ACC is a no brainer if it comes to that. As of right now, that 13th game is a must. That doesn't leave many choices for ND. I think you need to set things in motion for ND to join the ACC for football. The ACC seems to have been a great partner so far in all the other sports...

 

[ND NYC]

I've said this a few times and nobody has responded. Why not "The Notre Dame - Big 12 Classic" played during conference championship week against the Big 12 champion in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City?

so this year we would have played Baylor at 3:30 and then TCU at 7:00...on the same day?

#bowlsbygotgreedyanditbackfiredbigtime

 

[ND NYC]

Thirteenth game only counts if it is playoff in nature. playing the top team from your opposite division normally puts you in position to put a top 25 win on your resume at the time it matters most. A 13th game makes no sense for ND unless it has some way of being done at year end against someone who has proven themselves over the course of the season.

If anything, I would cut back to 11 games and give us another bye week. We go undefeated and we are in the playoffs, no doubt about it. This year we would have been in if our only loss was to FSU. Rather than beat our kids up more, why not drop a game to give us another bye week in the middle of the season?

Putting USC or Stanford to finish the season is plenty of star power for our final game to leave a good taste in people's mouth if we beat them. If we were to play BYU or another independent first week of December that would work too, but I would rather put a bye after Navy every year in return for that game rather than bump us to 13 games.

but we had 2 bye weeks this year.
are you saying go to 3 bye weeks?
just don't see that happening much less cutting back to 11 games total while rest of college football world is "in play for 13"

 

[RDU Irish]

If the viewpoint is we can't make the playoffs unless we are undefeated, adding a bye week makes more sense than anything to achieve that goal. Up the rhetoric that we would rather take a week off than play an FCS school. Two of those 13 wins don't count for sh!t when you consider that is about how many FCS schools most are playing.

I agree that it ain't happenin'. Just saying, in the context of winning them all, playing fewer would make more sense.

 

[RDU Irish]

We had two bye weeks and were banged up as sh!t down the stretch. 12 COMPETITIVE games is the problem, no complete cream puff FCS schools. Hell, make Navy the December game so we have a month to heal up for the bowl game. Then we have three bye weeks during the season and nobody after Navy to worry about. Who the F is going to berate ND for playing 11 games if they win them all and beat a top team out of every major conference in the process, most likely a conference champ in there as well.

Undefeated isn't the scenario we need to worry about getting snubbed. One loss is the problem. This year losing to FSU, we are likely still in if we win out. If not, it was obviously within reach. With the schedule I mention, we are (normally) playing more top 25 teams than anyone from all over the country. Odds are, we have at least one playoff contender on the schedule every year. If OSU can beat out TCU and Baylor with that crap schedule and horrible loss to Va Tech at home..... how the F can you people moan that we are going to be eternally screwed by this process? We screwed ourselves by sucking! Go 11-1 this year and we have something to moan about but how do you extrapolate that to 12-0 or 11-0 Irish watching the playoffs at home? Complete chicken little sky is falling BS.

 

[EddytoNow]

As much as I hate to say this, it's obvious that style points count for more than strength of schedule. Ohio State didn't make the play-offs this year because of the strength of their schedule. They made the play-offs because they buried their competition under an avalanche of points. Notre Dame would do better to include a couple of easy wins rather than adding a 13th game against a quality opponent. If you want to make regular trips to the play-offs (like Ohio State), then replicate their formula. Schedule a number of teams you can beat by 40 points or more, and dominate the teams you should dominate instead of playing down to the competition. We lack a killer instinct, and this causes us to frequently win or lose close games against teams we should dominate based on level of talent available to both teams.

 

[wizards8507]

As much as I hate to say this, it's obvious that style points count for more than strength of schedule. Ohio State didn't make the play-offs this year because of the strength of their schedule. They made the play-offs because they buried their competition under an avalanche of points. Notre Dame would do better to include a couple of easy wins rather than adding a 13th game against a quality opponent. If you want to make regular trips to the play-offs (like Ohio State), then replica their formula. Schedule a number of teams you can beat by 40 points or more, and dominate the teams you should dominate instead of playing down to the competition. We lack a killer instinct, and this causes us to frequently win or lose close games against teams we should dominate based on level of talent available to both teams.

This. I never want to see an FCS program on Notre Dame's schedule, but instead of ONE of Temple, Rice, UMass, and Nevada, I'd like to see at least two of those (or similar caliber) per season.

 

[Crazy Balki]

This. I never want to see an FCS program on Notre Dame's schedule, but instead of ONE of Temple, Rice, UMass, and Nevada, I'd like to see at least two of those (or similar caliber) per season.

It wasn't O$U burying FCS nobodies in points, but Wisconsin that got them in the playoffs. Just look at TCU and Baylor, they buried their opponents in points and look where it got them.

 

[wizards8507]

It wasn't O$U burying FCS nobodies in points, but Wisconsin that got them in the playoffs. Just look at TCU and Baylor, they buried their opponents in points and look where it got them.

I said I DON'T want us to schedule FCS so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

If you're saying we need to bury teams like Purdue and Syracuse when we play them, then I totally agree.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I said I DON'T want us to schedule FCS so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

If you're saying we need to bury teams like Purdue and Syracuse when we play them, then I totally agree.

I think he's just commenting that OSU's style points at the end of the year were against Wisconsin, not some FCS or low level FBS team. Baylor and TCU whooped on some teams too this year and didn't make it in because OSU's came against a well respected B1G team in route to a championship. That's my interpretation of his post anyways.

 

[ickythump1225]

Sta, USC, Navy, B1G, some other Power 5 team.

One of those gets left out of OoC sched if ND in ACC. Somethin to chew on.

Keep USC and Navy. Don't care if we play another B1G team ever again honestly, and Stanford we can schedule occasionally.

 

[ickythump1225]

FSU didn't have a hard time with the Playoff Committee because of their conference affliation, this Committee seemed to value blowouts and FSU didn't do that like they did last year.

In quite a few games Winston and Company seemed to only play the second half. Opponents made the noise is the first half and then Jameis started to play.

The committee sure didn't have a problem with Alabama playing a few close ones. When MSU was gutting out a victories over Kentucky and Arkansas the narrative was "wow they just win."

 

[T Town Tommy]

The committee sure didn't have a problem with Alabama playing a few close ones. When MSU was gutting out a victories over Kentucky and Arkansas the narrative was "wow they just win."

MSU was ranked #1 for five or six weeks. I don't think the committee looked at MSU any differently. As far as "narrative" I guess that depends on who was talking. It sure doesn't seem to have been the committee.

 

[ND NYC]

you guys all make valid points...just goes to show how ridiculous this whole CFP selection process is.

its basically a subjective, "eye test" subject to the whims of popular opinion, bias--with "close calls" going to conference champs.

I think leaving it at 4 teams really makes the regular season matter wwhile going to 8 teams lessens the regular season. still not sure I want to go there.

I would only "go to 8" if by doing so you eliminate the conf champ games altogether and in their place you have 1 play 8 2 play 7 etc at the higher seeded home fields. then you slot the remaining 4 teams like they just did. would have to hhave some sort of revenue sharing for the conference and thee team with the higher seed who host the games, and ND if they hosted a game would have to share in such a game as well. some hard hurdles to clear...

 

[BleedBlueGold]

MSU was ranked #1 for five or six weeks. I don't think the committee looked at MSU any differently. As far as "narrative" I guess that depends on who was talking. It sure doesn't seem to have been the committee.

FSU was ranked #1 too....until the committee decided they don't look like a number one team. The committee was wildly inconsistent throughout the year with how they viewed teams.