BVG Fired

[MNIrishman]

I'd replace him with Greg Mattison before Rhoads I think. Would love to steal me some Chizik too. He seems like a straight shooter.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Are we assuming Van Gorder picks up a head coaching gig this offseason? Because even though I have my qualms with this d, firing him would be a crazy, crazy decision.

Would it? We're #40 in Total Defense, and were #73 last year. The kids hate the system, whether they say it or not (no kid wants to play in a defense thats harder to learn than a second language) and it allows smart guys who cant play in space like Joe to stay on the field while guys like Morgan warm the bench. I'd rather just have a good solid DC who has a simpler system where the best players can get on the field and just fly around.

 

[irishff1014]

Would it? We're #40 in Total Defense, and were #73 last year. The kids hate the system, whether they say it or not (no kid wants to play in a defense thats harder to learn than a second language) and it allows smart guys who cant play in space like Joe to stay on the field while guys like Morgan warm the bench. I'd rather just have a good solid DC who has a simpler system where the best players can get on the field and just fly around.

Who is going to hire him for a head coaching job? That would be a huge mistake.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Who is going to hire him for a head coaching job? That would be a huge mistake.

I dont really expect him to go anywhere, I'm just speaking about my preference.

 

[kmoose]

Would it? We're #40 in Total Defense, and were #73 last year. The kids hate the system, whether they say it or not (no kid wants to play in a defense thats harder to learn than a second language) and it allows smart guys who cant play in space like Joe to stay on the field while guys like Morgan warm the bench. I'd rather just have a good solid DC who has a simpler system where the best players can get on the field and just fly around.

Yes, it would.

In ND's 11 games thus far, only 3 teams(Virginia, UMass, and Pitt) have scored higher than their season average against ND. And in two of those games, Pitt(42) and UMass(62), ND scored enough to play a little looser on Defense.

ND has played 5 teams(Ga Tech, Clemson, Navy, USC, Temple) that average over 30 points a game. In 3(UMass, Navy, Temple) of those 5 games, the Defense held their opponent to double digits under their average. ND held ALL of them to under their average.

No one has scored more than 5.6 points(Umass) above their season average against this defense.

The Defense is not dominant by any stretch of the imagination, and you could make an argument that they have underachieved........ but to fire BVG now? Dumb. Unless you have the 50 year old Dick LeBeau or the 45 year old Buddy Ryan waiting to replace him, then you absolutely stay with him.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Yes, it would.

In ND's 11 games thus far, only 3 teams(Virginia, UMass, and Pitt) have scored higher than their season average against ND. And in two of those games, Pitt(42) and UMass(62), ND scored enough to play a little looser on Defense.

ND has played 5 teams(Ga Tech, Clemson, Navy, USC, Temple) that average over 30 points a game. In 3(UMass, Navy, Temple) of those 5 games, the Defense held their opponent to double digits under their average. ND held ALL of them to under their average.

No one has scored more than 5.6 points(Umass) above their season average against this defense.

The Defense is not dominant by any stretch of the imagination, and you could make an argument that they have underachieved........ but to fire BVG now? Dumb. Unless you have the 50 year old Dick LeBeau or the 45 year old Buddy Ryan waiting to replace him, then you absolutely stay with him.

I dont want him fired lol. He shouldn't be. I'm simple advocating for a more simplistic defensive scheme to get the most out of every guy on the roster.

 

[kmoose]

I dont want him fired lol. He shouldn't be. I'm simple advocating for a more simplistic defensive scheme to get the most out of every guy on the roster.

Well............ someone said firing him would be a crazy idea, and you questioned if it really would. I just answered your question.

 

[ThePiombino]

It would not be crazy, but something needs to give. Either he, much like BK, sees the writing on the wall and adjusts his approach or we start recruiting smarter (and likely less athletic) kids. How is it that teams with far less talent produce far better results? The parts are all there for ND and it's obvious there's room for improvement. I think that means scheme change. Can BVG be the guy to implement if? If so, good. If not, sayonara.

 

[IrishinSyria]

It would not be crazy, but something needs to give. Either he, much like BK, sees the writing on the wall and adjusts his approach or we start recruiting smarter (and likely less athletic) kids. How is it that teams with far less talent produce far better results? The parts are all there for ND and it's obvious there's room for improvement. I think that means scheme change. Can BVG be the guy to implement if? If so, good. If not, sayonara.

I just hope that we're finally through the growing pains stage of implementing his system. Last year was rough, and I get why. This year has been better, but it's still frustrating that we need certain players on the field to make sure everyone else "gets it". Next year, knowledge of the D should be rock solid throughout the program. New guys should be able to pick it up quicker because they'll be surrounded by veterans who "get it". The position coaches will all be on the same page. Guys will have been recruited to play in the D, so physically they'll fit the scheme.

If that's not the case, then I'll be worried. But we're 10-1 right now despite picking up a barge load of injuries. Don't rock the boat.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Would it? We're #40 in Total Defense, and were #73 last year. The kids hate the system, whether they say it or not (no kid wants to play in a defense thats harder to learn than a second language) and it allows smart guys who cant play in space like Joe to stay on the field while guys like Morgan warm the bench. I'd rather just have a good solid DC who has a simpler system where the best players can get on the field and just fly around.

Funny how people were clamoring for a more complicated defense for all of 2013 after Diaco was exposed by Alabama.

I said preseason that I think the defense will be around ~#35 this year for a ten-win season. I don't think the production warrants regime change, but if Kelly made the call I wouldn't complain I guess.

We know what this defense is. It's not awful. It's not great. It's mostly solid play but is prone to giving up big plays.

 

[IrishLax]

Funny how people were clamoring for a more complicated defense for all of 2013 after Diaco was exposed by Alabama.

I said preseason that I think the defense will be around ~#35 this year for a ten-win season. I don't think the production warrants regime change, but if Kelly made the call I wouldn't complain I guess.

We know what this defense is. It's not awful. It's not great. It's mostly solid play but is prone to giving up big plays.

Yup. Everyone wanted an aggressive, complex defense. Now everyone bitches about an aggressive, complex defense.

Bottom line is that Diaco really hamstrung BVG with his recruiting. Just not a lot of bodies at safety or ILB. And I think like 85% of the issues that happen on defense are because 1) there are a lot of blown assignments (particularly from the safety position) 2) Joe Schmidt is limited in what he can do 3) the defense is based around pressure and we haven't exactly gotten consistent pass rush from the DEs.

It's all probably going to get worse before it gets better. Secondary should take a step back next year, and LB might take a step back too with up to 3 new starters. DL loses at least Sheldon Day and Okwara, and possibly everyone.

 

[arndtjc]

Don't rock the boat.

Burn it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dmort]

Just proves that ND fans are near impossible to satisfy,so why bother ? BVG and the D are keeping us in games so I dont want to see any change at the top.Both sides of the ball have seen injuries to key players and we are still in contention,amazing job of coaching.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Yup. Everyone wanted an aggressive, complex defense. Now everyone bitches about an aggressive, complex defense.

Bottom line is that Diaco really hamstrung BVG with his recruiting. Just not a lot of bodies at safety or ILB. And I think like 85% of the issues that happen on defense are because 1) there are a lot of blown assignments (particularly from the safety position) 2) Joe Schmidt is limited in what he can do 3) the defense is based around pressure and we haven't exactly gotten consistent pass rush from the DEs.

It's all probably going to get worse before it gets better. Secondary should take a step back next year, and LB might take a step back too with up to 3 new starters. DL loses at least Sheldon Day and Okwara, and possibly everyone.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the general consensus is that we'll be better at practically every level on defense in 2016. We lose Day, but get Jones back, along with Rochell, Tillery, Trumbetti and Cage. Bonner, Blankenship and Randolph will all be in their 3rd year of the system.

At LB, we lose Jaylon and that sucks, but at SAM and MIKE, we'll be DRASTICALLY better. Joe is a good guy and all, but he's just not good. Not athletic enough, too small and banged up. If Morgan or Martini (or anyone) isn't ready by then, then we need to start cutting ties with Elston/BVG. Coney has the makings of a really good one, and he's replacing Jaylon, so I'm a little less worried. Tranquill will be back and I see him moving to SAM and becoming the starter. I like Onwualu, but he's not an effective blitzer and can get jammed by big blockers. Tranquill is much more physical and can blitz very well.

The secondary will have similar issues as this year, but Redfield has to come around eventually. It's seems like ND safeties turn it on in their final season (that's a trend that CANNOT continue) and we might be getting Sebastian back there at SS. Perry is EE IIRC, so he'll be able to backup Sebastian. May want to move Butler to Safety, but it might be too late at this point. CB should be better with Watkins, Crawford and Coleman both should see increased play and one of them start opposite Luke. I REALLY can't wait to see Crawford play.

 

[GBdomer]

I read the first page of this thread and cracked the fack up

 

[IrishLax]

I couldn't disagree more. I think the general consensus is that we'll be better at practically every level on defense in 2016. We lose Day, but get Jones back, along with Rochell, Tillery, Trumbetti and Cage. Bonner, Blankenship and Randolph will all be in their 3rd year of the system.

We lose Day and Okwara, and maybe Jones and Rochelle too. There is no guarantee at all that Jones and Rochelle are coming back. Blankenship might transfer, as might Jay Hayes. So you're looking at Trumbetti+Cage+Tillery+??? as the DL. There is no way that would be better than what we have this year. So it's wait-and-see who comes back.

At LB, we lose Jaylon and that sucks, but at SAM and MIKE, we'll be DRASTICALLY better. Joe is a good guy and all, but he's just not good. Not athletic enough, too small and banged up. If Morgan or Martini (or anyone) isn't ready by then, then we need to start cutting ties with Elston/BVG. Coney has the makings of a really good one, and he's replacing Jaylon, so I'm a little less worried. Tranquill will be back and I see him moving to SAM and becoming the starter. I like Onwualu, but he's not an effective blitzer and can get jammed by big blockers. Tranquill is much more physical and can blitz very well.

Why will be drastically better at SAM? It's still going to be Onwualu+whoever. I'll get to Traqnuill in a second. MIKE should be better. It should be Martini or Morgan or otherwise superior to Schmidt regardless of who plays. Coney should be very good, but he's not Jaylon Smith.

The secondary will have similar issues as this year, but Redfield has to come around eventually. It's seems like ND safeties turn it on in their final season (that's a trend that CANNOT continue) and we might be getting Sebastian back there at SS. Perry is EE IIRC, so he'll be able to backup Sebastian. May want to move Butler to Safety, but it might be too late at this point. CB should be better with Watkins, Crawford and Coleman both should see increased play and one of them start opposite Luke. I REALLY can't wait to see Crawford play.

It won't be "similar issues"... the safety depth chart is a complete joke, and CB is only marginally better. I'm assuming Redfield comes back, and I'm hoping Cole Luke does. So then at safety you have Redfield, Mykelti Williams, Drue Traqnuill, and Avery Sebastian. That's it for experienced players. So one guy who is not good, two guys who can't stay healthy, and a guy in Williams we have no idea what he is capable of. At corner, assuming Luke is back, you at least have one really good player. But then you have Butler and Watkins who haven't shown anything, and Nick Coleman who should be good. If Luke leaves... things get dicey. The wildcards are Ashton White and Shaun Crawford, two guys we don't really know anything about. Crawford is supposed to be good. But CB is probably OK as long as Luke stays.

So in total, you're looking at downgrades across the board depending on who goes pro. If everyone comes back, then we'll be fine on the DL and OK on the back end... if everyone who can leave does in fact leave, the defense is going to be very suspect.

 

[BGIF]

I read the first page of this thread and cracked the fack up

That page was created and filled shortly after the 17-14 win over Stanford and endorphins raged.

Seven days later UNC scored 43 points and as did most everybody else for the rest of the season and the fans raged and ragged, and ragged, and ragged.

 

[Crazy Balki]

We lose Day and Okwara, and maybe Jones and Rochelle too. There is no guarantee at all that Jones and Rochelle are coming back. Blankenship might transfer, as might Jay Hayes. So you're looking at Trumbetti+Cage+Tillery+??? as the DL. There is no way that would be better than what we have this year. So it's wait-and-see who comes back.

There's next to no chance that Jones and Rochell leave early. Jones needs to return and prove that he's truly developed and gotten over his injuries. I don't see him getting drafted in the first 4 rounds right now, but with a healthy season, he could jump into the top 3 rounds. Rochell is also a guy who could use another year with Gilmore. He's a very good player, but he's still not quite the pass rusher you want at DE. He needs to get his degree and show the NFL scouts his game has a higher ceiling at a pass rusher. Honestly, both would be bloody fools to leave early.

Why will be drastically better at SAM? It's still going to be Onwualu+whoever. I'll get to Traqnuill in a second. MIKE should be better. It should be Martini or Morgan or otherwise superior to Schmidt regardless of who plays. Coney should be very good, but he's not Jaylon Smith.

Tranquill is should be a LB/Dime next season, and Onwualu with another year in the system should be better than this season. Constant improvements. I've already stated Schmidt's limitations and they're a major problem. Coney should only be a modest downgrade, just because Jaylon is a freak of nature, but Coney is no slouch either. Upgraded at 2 positions, downgrade at 1 but a manageable downgrade.

It won't be "similar issues"... the safety depth chart is a complete joke, and CB is only marginally better. I'm assuming Redfield comes back, and I'm hoping Cole Luke does. So then at safety you have Redfield, Mykelti Williams, Drue Traqnuill, and Avery Sebastian. That's it for experienced players. So one guy who is not good, two guys who can't stay healthy, and a guy in Williams we have no idea what he is capable of. At corner, assuming Luke is back, you at least have one really good player. But then you have Butler and Watkins who haven't shown anything, and Nick Coleman who should be good. If Luke leaves... things get dicey. The wildcards are Ashton White and Shaun Crawford, two guys we don't really know anything about. Crawford is supposed to be good. But CB is probably OK as long as Luke stays.

So in total, you're looking at downgrades across the board depending on who goes pro. If everyone comes back, then we'll be fine on the DL and OK on the back end... if everyone who can leave does in fact leave, the defense is going to be very suspect.

As of right now, our secondary is Max Redfield, Elijah Shumate and a ham sandwich at Safety. Farley can play Safety, but he just isn't a good Safety. Sebastian or possibly Tranquill (if he's improved in coverage) can fill in for Shumate, and there will be bodies behind them whereas right now, there isn't really anybody. Not saying the Safety position is in good shape (it certainly is not), but it's going to be improved. Not to mention, Redfield should be improved as a Senior.

Cole Luke shouldn't even have the NFL on his radar at this point. He's been okay, but he has some major things to improve on before moving on to the league. First off, Luke can't tackle for jacksh*t, probably our worst tackler on defense. Secondly, while he's been pretty good in coverage, it's not that good. Russell should return as well, but I don't know if he's even able to. I'm very hyped about Crawford and Coleman in particular. We have a ton of athletes at the corner. Watkins and Butler should also be serviceable to solid as backups.

 

[ulukinatme]

This defense is the opposite of bend, don't break. That can be good and bad. For one, somewhere mid season somebody said we were in the Top 10 for 3 and outs, which is good. Downside is we had to be the last team in the country when it came to defending flea flickers. When the defense is clicking, it's really clicking. They're bottling up the run, and occasionally the secondary is shutting down passes. When they're not clicking, it's ugly. It's a dice roll I guess, but we do seem to do better in the 2nd half after adjustments. Would just be nice to get the adjustments done in the 2nd quarter.

 

[Grahambo]

Its almost as if players are more important then scheme.

 

[JughedJones]

I think we should stay with him for as long as CBK stays with us.

I'm a huge fan of stability, and I'm a huge fan of a staff that can eek out 11 wins from a team without starters at key positions. I think this staff should have a bronze statue in wait of the National Championship that we'll win. It could very well be this year. It might be next. Maybe two in a row?

Who knows?

 

[dang227]

This is disconcerting

Last 2 seasons, #NotreDame defense allowed 41 scoring drives of 75yds+. 40 of 41 TDs. 6 other score drives between 70-74 yds in '14, all TDs

 

[kmoose]

This is disconcerting

Last 2 seasons, #NotreDame defense allowed 41 scoring drives of 75yds+. 40 of 41 TDs. 6 other score drives between 70-74 yds in '14, all TDs

Why is that disconcerting?

 

[ThePiombino]

Why is that disconcerting?

Probably because giving up an average of ~two 70+ TD drives per game is garbage. Just a guess...

 

[kmoose]

Probably because giving up an average of ~two 70+ TD drives per game is garbage. Just a guess...

Without context, it is meaningless. It could be a sign of a poor defense, sure. But what if Alabama, Ohio State, LSU, and Michigan State all averaged 3 70+ yard TD drives per game? Then that changes the context, and our D suddenly looks pretty good. Or you might discover that the Defense has only given up 1 scoring drive of less than 70 yards in the last two seasons, which could indicate that either the defense is not great, but really makes teams earn their points; or that our offense is kicking ass and leaving opponents to start each and every drive from inside of their own 30.

 

[dang227]

Why is that disconcerting?

Because our defense has consistently allowed teams to drive the length of the field and covert TDs. For an "aggressive" defense they rarely force turnovers and our guys are more concerned with running to a spot on the field instead of reading keys. I just think BVG overuses the zone blitzes. It looks like week in and week out our back seven is doing more thinking than reacting. God help us if we give teams a short field. It is an auto Magic TD.

 

[ThePiombino]

Without context, it is meaningless. It could be a sign of a poor defense, sure. But what if Alabama, Ohio State, LSU, and Michigan State all averaged 3 70+ yard TD drives per game? Then that changes the context, and our D suddenly looks pretty good. Or you might discover that the Defense has only given up 1 scoring drive of less than 70 yards in the last two seasons, which could indicate that either the defense is not great, but really makes teams earn their points; or that our offense is kicking ass and leaving opponents to start each and every drive from inside of their own 30.

And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. The reality is that teams like Bama, OSU, LSU, and the like are not giving up 3, or even 2 TD drives of 70+ yards per game. So this actually IS in context. If we were cutting that # in 1/2 and replacing it with FGs then the overall scoring # wouldn't be so bad, but damn that is A LOT of looooong TD drives to be giving up. If we were members of the BIG12 then maybe there would be something to be excited about here...

 

[kmoose]

The reality is that teams like Bama, OSU, LSU, and the like are not giving up 3, or even 2 TD drives of 70+ yards per game.

Then how about coughing up their averages, so we can make a reasonable comparison?

 

[kmoose]

Because our defense has consistently allowed teams to drive the length of the field and covert TDs. For an "aggressive" defense they rarely force turnovers and our guys are more concerned with running to a spot on the field instead of reading keys. I just think BVG overuses the zone blitzes. It looks like week in and week out our back seven is doing more thinking than reacting. God help us if we give teams a short field. It is an auto Magic TD.

Actually, ND's #8 ranking in 3rd down defense indicates that scoring from anywhere on the field is no "auto Magic TD".

 

[Irish#1]

I think we should stay with him for as long as CBK stays with us.

I'm a huge fan of stability, and I'm a huge fan of a staff that can eek out 11 wins from a team without starters at key positions. I think this staff should have a bronze statue in wait of the National Championship that we'll win. It could very well be this year. It might be next. Maybe two in a row?

Who knows?

Yes sir.