Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[ACamp1900]

If they look clownish against the Tri Op again I think any reasonable criticism coming the staff's way will be justified... no question.

 

[Irish Insanity]

You keep saying that you "never said the coach should be fired" if they don't hit your "floor of 10 wins".

So answer that... what exactly is supposed to happen?

A good ol ass whooping. A spanking. Make sure they understand it's not acceptable.

Or. He could change his 'system' that keeps the better, sometimes younger, athletes off the field. He could delegate responsibilities better. He could allow one of his coordinators to call the plays. We could look at the way the schedule is balanced......

Again, I've haven't called for anyone to be fired......yet. To me the 8, 9 on a good year, wins are becoming the norm.

 

[kmoose]

A good ol ass whooping. A spanking. Make sure they understand it's not acceptable.

Or. He could change his 'system' that keeps the better, sometimes younger, athletes off the field. He could delegate responsibilities better. He could allow one of his coordinators to call the plays. We could look at the way the schedule is balanced......

Again, I've haven't called for anyone to be fired......yet. To me the 8, 9 on a good year, wins are becoming the norm.

Could you give us an example or two of who you mean, with this?

A better athlete isn't always a better choice at a position. Will Fuller is less talented than Randy Moss was... but I would take Fuller over Moss every day. Tarean Folston is less talented than Lawrence Phillips was... but I would take Foltson over Phillips, and it isn't even close.

 

[gkIrish]

Navy: no argument. That's 1.
Tulsa: Tulsa went 10-3 in 2010. There's no doubt that ND is a better historical program, but there's a lot of doubt as to whether 2010 ND was superior to 2010 Tulsa.
Purdue: We beat Purdue by double digits. Debatable whether or not you could call that "struggling mightily".
Pitt: ND won by 6 points, but Pitt was 8-5 that year, the same as us. Debatable as to whether we were more talented.



USF: USF went 5-7 that year. No excuses. That's 2.
Pitt: 6-7 that year, we beat them by 3 points. That's 3
Wake Forest: 6-7 that year, we beat them by a touchdown. That's 4
Boston College: went 4-8 that year, we beat them by 2 points. That's 5



Purdue: went 1-11 that year, we beat them by one touchdown. That's 6
Navy: Navy went 9-4 in 2013. So it's debatable, again, if we were the better team that season
Pitt: Pitt went 7-6 that year, and they beat us by a TD. That's 7



I'm just going to concede all 5 of these, while pointing out that all but one (UNC) came after the defensive was absolutely decimated by injuries.

So, in summary, in 5 seasons, we have a total of 12, by my count. That's a far cry from "6-7 times a season". There's certainly room to criticize the coaches and demand more from the program, but it should be reasoned and quantifiable criticism.

Rather than argue about whether a game should be on the list, let's just compare to Alabama. And remember, I didn't even include any games we flat out lost. And to make it easy, let's just refer to these games we are including on the lists as "headscratchers."

2010: None (Ole Miss is the closest thing, maybe a 0.5) Alabama 2010 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN


2011: None Alabama 2011 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN


2012: None Alabama 2012 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

2013: A&M turned out to be pretty bad but they were ranked #6 at the time so I would say 0.5 there. Alabama 2013 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

2014: Arkansas, and maybe another 0.5 for West Virginia Alabama 2014 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

So being generous, Alabama has 2.5 "Headscratcher" games since 2010 (and didn't lose any of them). Compare that to Notre Dame's minimum of 12 and also realize that Alabama lost so much less in general in games that don't qualify as headscratchers. For the love of God just look at those margins of victory though.

So if Alabama is the model program, ND isn't even remotely close. Not in the same universe.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

2010: None (Ole Miss is the closest thing, maybe a 0.5) Alabama 2010 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

I'm confused by this because in 2010 #1 AL was upset by #19 SC by two TDs...and you're not calling that a headscratcher?

 

[gkIrish]

I'm confused by this because in 2010 #1 AL was upset by #19 SC by two TDs...and you're not calling that a headscratcher?

They lost @ the number 19 team in the country and a program led by Steve Spurrier. No, I don't consider that a headscratcher but if you want to say 3.5 go for it. Doesn't change anything.

 

[kmoose]

Rather than argue about whether a game should be on the list, let's just compare to Alabama. And remember, I didn't even include any games we flat out lost. And to make it easy, let's just refer to these games we are including on the lists as "headscratchers."

2010: None (Ole Miss is the closest thing, maybe a 0.5) Alabama 2010 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN


2011: None Alabama 2011 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN


2012: None Alabama 2012 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

2013: A&M turned out to be pretty bad but they were ranked #6 at the time so I would say 0.5 there. Alabama 2013 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

2014: Arkansas, and maybe another 0.5 for West Virginia Alabama 2014 Schedule - Crimson Tide Home and Away - ESPN

So being generous, Alabama has 2.5 "Headscratcher" games since 2010 (and didn't lose any of them). Compare that to Notre Dame's minimum of 12 and also realize that Alabama lost so much less in general in games that don't qualify as headscratchers. For the love of God just look at those margins of victory though.

So if Alabama is the model program, ND isn't even remotely close. Not in the same universe.

But here's the thing........ we aren't discussing Alabama, or their coaching staff. So they are irrelevent to the discussion that we are having.

Poster A makes a hyperbolic statement, as if it were not hyperbolic. Poster B points out that the statement IS, in fact, hyperbolic. So Poster A comes back with, "Well, our coach is demonstrably worse than the best coach in all of college football". That may be correct, but no one has said it isn't.

 

[gkIrish]

But here's the thing........ we aren't discussing Alabama, or their coaching staff. So they are irrelevent to the discussion that we are having.

Poster A makes a hyperbolic statement, as if it were not hyperbolic. Poster B points out that the statement IS, in fact, hyperbolic. So Poster A comes back with, "Well, our coach is demonstrably worse than the best coach in all of college football". That may be correct, but no one has said it isn't.

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

But here's the thing........ we aren't discussing Alabama, or their coaching staff. So they are irrelevent to the discussion that we are having.

Poster A makes a hyperbolic statement, as if it were not hyperbolic. Poster B points out that the statement IS, in fact, hyperbolic. So Poster A comes back with, "Well, our coach is demonstrably worse than the best coach in all of college football". That may be correct, but no one has said it isn't.

Was just typing this. It's not really apples to apples. Bama does things different than ND. They are the definition of a football factory. Can ND compete with them on occasion? Yes. But will ND ever be Alabama? No.

 

[gkIrish]

Was just typing this. It's not really apples to apples. Bama does things different than ND. They are the definition of a football factory. Can ND compete with them on occasion? Yes. But will ND ever be Alabama? No.

Give me the name of a program you aspire to compete with in the next 5 years.

 

[LoveThee]

Has anybody made the comparison to Nebraska yet? Bo went 9-4, 10-4, 10-4, 9-4, 10-4, 9-4 and 9-3. His teams were always underwhelming in the big game. Conversely, Kelly's teams struggle with "playing down" to lesser opponents. At a certain point, 4 or 3 losses get tiring. If the ceiling has been reached, its probably time to move on.

That said, I'm not ready to say Kelly has reached his ceiling here

 

[kmoose]

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

Right, we are talking about NOTRE DAME, not Alabama. Nick Saban would not work in South Bend, just like Randy Moss wouldn't have worked. Don't tell me what I want or expect. I'm well aware of my wants and expectations. Do I want or expect ND to adopt the "football factory" culture of Alabama, Florida State, Oregon, USC, et al, in order to win multiple championships? No. But I do want to, and expect to, win at least a championship soon. But it is HARD to do. You and others act like there is some magical bullet out there; that if we just had this ONE thing going for us, then we would be where we want to be. That's not the way it works..... unless you want ND to abandon it's commitment to academics and scruples?

 

[gkIrish]

Is Michigan St. a football factory? The 3 stars they get don't think so...

2010: beat Purdue by only four so 1
2011: 0.5 for Minnesota
2012: Struggled with Eastern Michigan, Northwestern and Indiana, lost to Indiana: 4
2013: Western Michigan
2014: None

So 6.5, maybe 7.
By the way, they won BCS games and Big Ten championships.

And since we are counting every season for all the other teams let's add a 0.5 and 0.5 for Purdue and BYU in 2012. So ND is at a minimum at 13 headscratchers and possibly up to 17 if you agree with my view.

Michigan St has 7 at most.

 

[MNIrishman]

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

You're right, let's hire Nick Saban.

 

[kmoose]

Is Michigan St. a football factory? The 3 stars they get don't think so...

2010: beat Purdue by only four so 1
2011: 0.5 for Minnesota
2012: Struggled with Eastern Michigan, Northwestern and Indiana, lost to Indiana: 4
2013: Western Michigan
2014: None

So 6.5, maybe 7.
By the way, they won BCS games and Big Ten championships.

And since we are counting every season for all the other teams let's add a 0.5 and 0.5 for Purdue and BYU in 2012. So ND is at a minimum at 13 headscratchers and possibly up to 17 if you agree with my view.

Michigan St has 7 at most.

So you want to compete with Michigan State?

Brian Kelly is 3-1 against Michigan State, in his tenure at ND.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

Alabama has also had the #1 recruiting class 4 of the last 5 years or is it 5 consecutive now? How many FBS teams have they played? I'm not trying to bail out Kelly or ND but some comparisons are silly. We are seeing the most dominant recruiting machine in the modern era of CFB.

Further, Saban is a damn good coach. Probably the best or at least in the top 3.

I believe Kelly is in the group just below that right now. He doesn't have the same advantages built-in to his program that Saban does.

I'd say Kelly has done well upgrading the program, stocking the roster and prepping us to make a run. Some of the rest just comes down to luck. We don't want to believe luck plays a part but it does. Kelly can't coach injuries out of this team. We've lost our offensive backbone in our #1 QB, #1 RB and #1 TE (and our #1 NT and #1 nickel).

Last year, I doubt any school could claim as many casualties and we were a very young team. What was it, 11 starters knocked out or something like that? Did that even include the frozen five?

Kelly has us as prepared as we could be to make a run. You do realize we made it to a NC game with Rees and a frosh Golson as our QBs??

People have the right to complain and to bring in another below-par coach who sinks this program again and I'll be the first in line to tell you to shut your fvcking mouth since all you wanted to do was b!tch about the job Kelly has done.

 

[ulukinatme]

I don't think Michigan State is a great example. Until the last few years I believe they were in the same division as Wisconsin (When it was Legends/Leaders). After they switched the B1G to East/West I think they ended up in the East division which is a better division with tOSU, and the occasionally decent PSU and scUM. Some could still say that the B1G on a whole is fairly weak aside from the 2-3 teams at the top.

My point is that our schedule is typically better than Michigan State's. In any given year even a struggling Pitt is probably better than a directional Michigan/MAC school.

 

[ulukinatme]

So you want to compete with Michigan State?

Brian Kelly is 3-1 against Michigan State, in his tenure at ND.

There should be an asterisk after that 1. Play clock was at 0, and Michigan State's player was holding two of our guys to leave their receiver open on that fake.

 

[gkIrish]

So you want to compete with Michigan State?

Brian Kelly is 3-1 against Michigan State, in his tenure at ND.

You love deflecting.

Brady Hoke was 2-2, does that make him equal to BK?

 

[ACamp1900]

Brady Hoke was 2-2, does that make him equal to BK?

Shame on you for putting that evil on this board....

 

[kmoose]

You love deflecting.

Brady Hoke was 2-2, does that make him equal to BK?

You want to keep comparing us to these other teams........ how about we compare ourselves where it matters? On the field?

 

[gkIrish]

You want to keep comparing us to these other teams........ how about we compare ourselves where it matters? On the field?

We can do that but then you have to concede that Michigan has been a better program than us since 2010. Your logic, not mine. Northwestern and Tulsa too. Undefeated against BK.

 

[ulukinatme]

On any given Saturday any team can win, as evidenced by Michigan getting the better of us 3 of the last 5 years. They wanted it more, and our coaches blew the game in a couple cases. Were they necessarily the better team? Maybe that day, but overall I would say no based on records and the fact they're on their 4th coach in about a decade while we're still on our 2nd.

 

[gkIrish]

On any given Saturday any team can win, as evidenced by Michigan getting the better of us 3 of the last 5 years. They wanted it more, and our coaches blew the game in a couple cases. Were they necessarily the better team? Maybe that day, but overall I would say no based on records and the fact they're on their 4th coach in about a decade while we're still on our 2nd.

Obviously I totally agree but kmoose wants to dismiss MSU's clear dominance as a program over our program because BK has their number. Can't have it both ways.

 

[EddytoNow]

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

We'd all like Notre Dame to be a top five team every year and win national championships just like Alabama. Unfortunately, many of the athletes attending Alabama could never be admitted to Notre Dame. Additionally, as we have discovered during the Kelly reign, some athletes either can't or won't put in the academic work to remain at Notre Dame once they do get there. You and others can dismiss the injuries all you want, but Notre Dame has suffered long-term injuries and/or career-ending injuries to some key players during Kelly's reign. The facts regarding the injuries cannot be denied.

Kelly plays by the rules that Notre Dame has set up. Has he made some mistakes during his years at Notre Dame? Yes he has, but he makes no excuses and he protects his players, even those who have left Notre Dame because of their own mistakes or actions. Your ideal of annually competing for national championships just isn't going to happen at Notre Dame. Challenging for a play-off spot every five years or so would be a realistic goal for the Irish. With a little luck (lack of injuries, athletes staying eligible, fewer transfers, and a few lucky bounces or calls) Notre Dame might just win a national championship during one of those years.

I'm 63 years old. During my lifetime Notre Dame has won four national championships. That rounds off to about one national championship every 15 years. We had some pretty good coaches during that time (Ara Parseghian, Dan Devine, Lou Holtz) and a few that weren't so great. Brian Kelly is a top-ten coach by most people's standards. If he leaves we will have very little chance of replacing him with one of the other top-ten coaches. Let's allow Coach Kelly to do his job. Right now he's not whining about losing his top-two running backs and his top-two quarterbacks to injuries, transfers, and whatever. He's getting their back-ups ready to play Georgia Tech. Win or lose I will be watching Coach Kelly and our team every time they play, and I will be cheering for DeShone Kizer, C.J. Procise, and the others.

 

[woolybug25]

We are debating whether Brian Kelly is the right person to lead this program.

IMO, the right person to lead this program is someone who can make our resume competitive with Alabama's in the next five years. So if you don't want to compare to Alabama, that's on you. Just means you don't want or to expect to ever win a championship. Completely fine, but also completely pointless to debate with you.

If you want me to concede that it's not actually 6-7 times a season but it's actually 4-5 then sure. Doesn't change what I'm talking about. Don't ignore the actual point of this thread.

To be fair.. there is a chasm of difference between "being capable of winning a title" and "Alabama".

 

[koonja]

I accept that ND cannot win 10 games every year because of the academic focus and the fact that we employ suicide by schedule. This is inclusive of injuries because yes they happen, but you also have to have the depth there to take care of business. But here's what I want from a ND coach (not saying who I want):

Over a 4 year span, I expect to two have 8/9 win seasons, but never below. **** happens, so we're not winning 10 games a year, but at least not embarrassing ourselves with 7 shouldn't happen.

We make the playoffs at least 1 year out of 4. At that point, everything is a crap shoot so demanding to win it, or even to make the championship game is further than I'd go.

A 10 win year.

If BK wins 10 this year, he's not too far off of what I expect as a ND fan given our current state.

 

[ulukinatme]

I think 10 win seasons every other year is attainable, but we've seen that even with good recruiting things will always happen with academics and injuries that hurt us in depth. If we continue to recruit well at OL and skill positions, and we can maybe pickup a few more good players at DL, I think good things will happen. We're better off today under BK than we were when he started.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I personally would be happy with the success that Stoops has had at OU. He has a championship. He has roughly an 80% win rate. He's only 50% in the bowl games though. But his OU teams regularly finish in the Top 10 or Top 15. It seems every 5 years, there's an 8-win season....only to followed with a string of 10+ win seasons. I know people will throw out how the Big12 isn't very competitive and teams are notorious for not playing defense. But there's no denying the success of that program over the last 15 years. I'm not saying I want Stoops at ND. But I would love to see ND find even a fraction of that kind of success AND maintain it. I truly feel like BK is close and w/o the shit luck over the last 2 seasons (and counting) he may still be riding high post 2012 season. EG getting suspended in '13 and the injuries in '14 (and so far in '15) have really hurt that.

 

[ThePiombino]

Could you give us an example or two of who you mean, with this?

A better athlete isn't always a better choice at a position. Will Fuller is less talented than Randy Moss was... but I would take Fuller over Moss every day. Tarean Folston is less talented than Lawrence Phillips was... but I would take Foltson over Phillips, and it isn't even close.

Are we really going to let this one slip by? lol

Not even including the ALL GALAXY pro career he had... In one year (1997) at Marshall, he put up the following #s:

96 receptions for over 1800 yards and 26 TDs
Oh, and he's was a Heisman finalist...which happens all the time with receivers...not really.

Love Fuller, but Fuller ain't no Moss (which you admittedly stated), but why wouldn't you want Moss over that? Because he's not a Notre Dame Man?