Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[loomis41973]

Tommy its all a very good point except for one thing --no blue blood will take on Notre Dame and the culture because their hands will be tied. They just wouldn't take on the job and the ones who will Notre Dame wouldn't want. No big time coach is going to take on the restrictions that Notre Dame puts on a coach and his program. The real question is this -is this the right thing to do. By keeping a high college experience culture can you win. Lou says you can I'm not so sure in todays $$$$, win at all cost college football culture. I'm not casting stones at the admn I'm just asking the question can this be done. We are all proud of being Notre Dame fans but watching schools pass you by because they have made the decision to win is hard to swallow. By the way I have a coaching profile that I would like to recommend--someone like Mark Riecht. Good man, values, 2nd chance guy who draws a line in the sand on his rules etc-- but a guy like this wouldn't even consider Notre dame because he knows the difficulty in winning here and even a coach like that has to get players in who are players first and students second. This whole debate is like being caught in a revolving door that keeps coming back to the same issue--do you want to win at any cost and Notre Dame says no. I'm ok with that but the product on the field is far below what Notre Dame could and should be.

Nailed it

 

[Bishop2b5]

Bama fans were and still are some of the most entitlement fans out there. During that timeframe, it seemed the program had no identity, no focus, too many people that thought they knew how to fix it... from who the coach was, should be, wouldn't be, and on and on. When desperation set in, some thought the only way to fix it was to buy their way out of it. In the end it was as simple as making the correct coaching hire. Once that happened, the whole thing changed. That's why I still think Notre Dame can be a top 10 program and challenge every 4-5 years for a title. Just takes a blue blood one correct hire and then it starts.

I agree with TTT. We were a complete disaster in so many ways between Stallings and Saban... miles below where you guys are right now. Turning things around and getting to where we are now wasn't really about schemes, the school, or any of that. It was about getting the right coach. I don't think it has to be Saban or Meyer. They aren't available. It's about finding the next Saban or Meyer that has the right attitude and knows how to build a program at a place like ND, instill the right mindset, overcome any obstacles, and finds the challenge appealing.

Think of the challenge Saban walked into 10 years ago: unreasonable expectations, lack of talent, a job where no amount of success would ever make you the most popular coach in school history (or at least that's what we thought then), meddling boosters, outdated facilities, coming off probation, impatient fans, a losing attitude throughout the entire program, and a belief from top to bottom that we were entitled to greatness but would never recapture the greatness of our past. It took the right coach to rise to that challenge, overcome all those obstacles, and change everything.

I totally believe that with the right guy, regardless of the difficulties at ND (and ALL schools have some issues that work against them), you guys would be perennial top-10 and challenging for the title most years.

 

[IrishLax]

Define "work" in major college football.

I one million percent guarantee if Notre Dame switched to a true triple option the criticism would be outrageously loud from all corners.

You could take at least 25% recruiting stars away right off the bat by the switch. God knows that won't be popular. Notre Dame's traditional tight ends would all but disappear. Smaller, less highly touted linemen would be targeted which would lead to plenty of bitching about not being tough enough when the run game sputters. Obviously, receiving recruiting would struggle.

I'm not really sure what the positives are to switching to a true flexbone. Player development would have to be off the charts to off-set fewer blue-chips in recruiting. Run game would have to be absurdly effective to counter any games when we get behind and struggle throwing--Jesus, the complaining when that happens.

We already saw this play out during Holtz' mid-to-late tenure. And that was paired with stout defenses who could keep the Irish in games when the offense sputtered. There was virtually nothing more critical among the fan base than the offense during that time. I can't imagine what it would be like 25 years later when opponents can score twice as many points.

I mean, part of me kind of would like to see it but I think deep down mostly everyone knows it'd be a disaster. Maybe a Mirer-era tweaked flexbone. Maybe. But a true Coach N flexbone, no thanks.

What's the intellectually non-lazy argument in favor?

I don't think believe in it for the reasons you said, but here's my devil's advocate approach:
1. It would be hard for opponents to defend for the same reason teams really struggle to stop Navy right now... teams generally don't recruit to stop or practice enough to stop it. So Notre Dame would have a serious advantage against "soft" teams from the Big 12 or PAC12 or some of the ACC. Similar logic to why Stanford's culture clash power football had a really successful run against defenses in their conference that had been built to stop team speed. So there's a built in schematic advantage.

2. While Notre Dame won't get elite recruits, on offense they will still get solid 3 talent that is much better than what Navy is winning with. ND would get the best run-first option QB every year. And many times, there are special guys out there like Denard Robinson that could be a dominant player in this type of offense.

3. On defense, recruiting would be detached, so with the right guy you're talking about still being able to get good talent and put a good product on the field. Navy is a top 25 team two years in a row despite a woefully undersized front 7 that can't match up with anyone.

Realistically, it's a bad idea because if it doesn't go right people will immediately panic and there WILL be a transition period... so panic is unavoidable, and then you get crap like this year where the internet is unreadable.

 

[Crazy Balki]

The problem with Auburn is that last year, they struggled to get any form of passing threat. Nobody respected the passing ability of Jeremy Johnson, thus it was easy to snuff out the run because that's all they had. Johnson also fell flat as a runner. He was beyond a disappointment. White isn't a great fit in this scheme, but he does just enough to get things rolling and he's improving week by week.

It really irks me because Auburn has a very good defense, and they have an established identity on offense and continue to get better. Whereas it seems like we have no identity on offense and continue to get worse.

Malzahn knows what he wants to do and they don't shy away from it. They don't "take what the defense gives them" or stupid crap like that. They want to be masters of their craft, not jack of all trades. Right now, ND is doing far too much to react to what the defense is doing. They can't do that. They need to establish an identity and roll with it. There's too much complexity within the scheme that's all about conforming to what you see on the other side of the ball. Kizer has a lot of pressure to do everything, when we do so much better when the QB doesn't have to do too much. Last year, Kelly took the pressure off of Kizer by attacking the sidelines with Prosise and going inside with Adams later on, and then Kizer was able to find a streaking Fuller downfield a lot.

This year, he doesn't have that. Prosise is gone, Adams is clearly not healthy, and as good as St Brown is, he's not quite Fuller yet, and isn't going to be open as often. Not to mention, there needs to be some major changes in how we block up front. What we're doing this year isn't working. Ditch the zone blocking and go straight man, because clearly our guys are not reacting quickly to guys in their zone and almost every play a defender is getting free to make the play. Also, STOP LETTING KIZER CHECK OUT! He's clearly not checking into the right plays more often than not. He doesn't see the field or the defense as well as he probably thinks he does and whatever he's doing, the defense seems to have little difficulty sniffing out his audibles.

EDIT: I'll also add that how Malzahn is using Truitt, that is how we should be using Sanders. The fact that he had 1 catch for 6 yards against Stanford is totally unacceptable. Shame on you Kelly.

 

[ThePiombino]

Bama fans were and still are some of the most entitlement fans out there. During that timeframe, it seemed the program had no identity, no focus, too many people that thought they knew how to fix it... from who the coach was, should be, wouldn't be, and on and on. When desperation set in, some thought the only way to fix it was to buy their way out of it. In the end it was as simple as making the correct coaching hire. Once that happened, the whole thing changed. That's why I still think Notre Dame can be a top 10 program and challenge every 4-5 years for a title. Just takes a blue blood one correct hire and then it starts.

I can dig this

 

[Sherm Sticky]

This is generally a very good post, but the ultimate conclusion and some of the bolded is very questionable.



1) NFL draft picks and the general amount of talent placed in the NFL tells a different story about "player development" . Harrison Smith raved about his coaching. Same with Will Fuller. Same with a lot of players. ND has put more talent in the NFL under Kelly than all but a few schools. Players are being developed, and being developed on both sides of the ball.



2) Kelly has never been reluctant to play young players. BVG was reluctant to play guys he didn't "trust" and Kelly has made a conscientious move to correct this issue. In fact, he talked about it at length after firing BVG and proof has been in the pudding. Under Diaco this was never the case (see Farley and KVR staring in 2012 on defense with no experience). And it's not been the case on offense. You could make stronger argument that he should be red shirting more guys (see: Okwarax2) than that he "isn't playing young guys." Really, there are only a handful of examples him sticking with an "under performing veteran" and they're almost exclusively on defense under BVG with Joe Schmidt being the one everyone points to.



3) Some people might legitimately be turned off by Kelly's antics in the USF game (he hasn't gone "red face" in 5 years) and by his general coaching style. This is legitimate. But Harbaugh and Saban... who will sign the top two classes this year... are 10x worse, and they still get it done on the trail. So I don't really buy that it's a huge issue.



4) Notre Dame's graduation rates obviously destroy the argument that average kids "can't make it at ND," so there's really no point discussing this. If a recruit is "questioning" that, then they're an idiot. Every school has academic attrition, we just pay attention to ours more closely.



5) The idea that there are tons of high star guys ready to play and not being given the opportunity for no reason is just a fallacy. People look at the Nyles Morgan situation as proof of this, but he's the exception not the rule. Jay Hayes vs Trumbetti... well, Trumbetti was a 4 too and people were complaining that he wasn't playing more behind Okwara (who was simply much better and an NFL caliber player). Sometimes there's a reason someone is sitting. Same with people calling for Redfield over FArley cuz Refield had the stars... guess which one is in the NFL getting snaps and which one is on the street with seemingly no future. And with Hayes, again, Kelly moved to correct that once he ditched BVG. Again, looking at 7 years of results proves this isn't the case overall. Lynch, Tuitt, etc. got reps immediately after getting on campus. Fuller got reps as a frosh. They went to more talented Golson as a RS frosh in 2012 over more experienced Tommy Rees strictly on upside/arm talent.



5B) Wimbush got reps as a true frosh. QBs usually take at least a RS year at every major program. DeShone Kizer was the returning starter coming off a 10 win campaign and was pilled as a top NFL draft pick. There is literally no kid that will look at a (happy) Brandon Wimbush who has the opportunity to be a 3 year starter and say "oh my gosh they did him wrong!" This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how college QBs are groomed if there is someone good ahead of them. At the point where the team committed to Kizer, they had to sit Wimbush this year to preserve that year of eligibility. Anything else would be malpractice for both him and the team.



6) For the majority of Brian Kelly's tenure, the defense has not been a "failure." It has been a failure for the past 3 seasons. Part of that is recruiting... which is a chicken & egg kind of the thing. If Diaco and Cooks and BVG had recruited harder, then we wouldn't have been stuck with so many roster holes and having to go with the youth movement. If the scheme wasn't terrible under BVG, then the defense would've produced better and it would've been easier for him to attract recruits. No recruits right now care about that past, though. They're waiting to see who the DC hire is. They're looking at early PT... something you're saying doesn't exist, despite the fact that there is a massive youth movement on that side of the ball... and they're looking at player development. If you're a defensive recruit, you'd be foolish NOT to look at Notre Dame if your goal is to get PT and get to the NFL. Or you're interested in an elite education. Or (insert a number of other attractive aspects)... as long as the DC is someone you believe in, and that DC is a good salesman. There was a serious issue under BVG of many players questioning whether they were being put in a position to succeed that did not exist under Diaco/Cooks/Elliot/Elston. The new staff... whether or not Lyght, Elston, or Gimore is retained... has to re-establish the credibility Notre Dame had for the first four years under Kelly.

Right, it's all about identity, continuity, and recruiting to be successful in your identity. Diaco had an identity and got enough playmakers (by recruiting hard) in the 2011 class that even with attrition they contributed in major roles with the Weis guys on that 2012 team.



Problem with BVG was that the identity didn't work... and then he didn't have/didn't go get the players to fit it, either.



MSU proved for years you can run a very good defense with strictly 3-star players that no one else really wanted. Same with a lot of schools. I fully believe that Notre Dame can play very strong defense without going into the deep south and signing a bunch of 5 DL... but for that to happen, you need the right guy who knows how to do the whole-greater-than-sum-of-the-parts thing not just develop individual players to be good and put them in a scheme where their talents are minimized.

You are on fire!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Irish#1]

Geez, with the reasoning around these parts, PPatterson would lose his job at TCU and Dantonio would be gone at Mich St.

Funny how a lot of folks here were saying we should try to get Herman, but I doubt that's the case with losses to SMU and Navy within the last 3 weeks. Internet forum fans are a fickle bunch.

Let's go back to 2013 when folks thought BK may jump to the NFL. Who of those on that list would we clearly still want. Here's the list of people referenced then:

1. Urban - sure, we'd still want him, but it's not happening.
2. Bill O'Brien - sure, we'd want him, but he's not going to leave Houston/NFL until he gets pushed out. He's doing an ok job at Houston.
3. Tom Clements - I doubt anyone would be thrilled considering he's old at age 63. I think he'd be good, but again do we really want someone that old?
4. Skip Holtz - not exactly lighting the world on fire. At best, this is a slight downgrade, especially considering his struggles at USF.
5. Chuck Martin - he hasn't done well at Miami, so no.
6. Diaco - he hasn't done well at UConn, so no.
7. Strong - I wanted him over BK back in 2009. He's struggled at Texas, so he's probably a lateral move at best now despite his success at Louisville. I doubt many would be excited.
8. Fitzgerald - he's done historically well at NU (his alma mater), which is pretty solid. I'm just not seeing him as being an upgrade to BK, and I don't see many excited even if he did come.
9. Bob Stoops - perennially good at OU, but who knows if he'd leave OU. I'm pretty sure most would be excited if we managed to nab him.



So note that there are only 4 names from the prior list, with Clements as the only likely option out of that bunch. Schiano and Fedora are the best options of those I think we'd get, so if they don't excite you, then perhaps we should stop clamoring to get rid of BK who's been rather solid over the years especially when you factor in dumb, off-field crap that has hindered this team repeatedly.

Clements is old at 63 and Stoops isn't at 60? Clements isn't too old. Given the average tenure for coaching at ND, he wouldn't be around long enough for age to become a factor.

Not sure about Miles. He did decent at LSU with his defenses, but offense was no where to be found.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I find it funny that I have never seen another comment like this before. I find it odd that he's acting butt hurt because HE didn't want to take a second language.

Or maybe, just maybe, he's being honest and we're being butt hurt because he chose that shity school instead.

 

[Rocket89]

I don't think believe in it for the reasons you said, but here's my devil's advocate approach:
1. It would be hard for opponents to defend for the same reason teams really struggle to stop Navy right now... teams generally don't recruit to stop or practice enough to stop it. So Notre Dame would have a serious advantage against "soft" teams from the Big 12 or PAC12 or some of the ACC. Similar logic to why Stanford's culture clash power football had a really successful run against defenses in their conference that had been built to stop team speed. So there's a built in schematic advantage.

2. While Notre Dame won't get elite recruits, on offense they will still get solid 3 talent that is much better than what Navy is winning with. ND would get the best run-first option QB every year. And many times, there are special guys out there like Denard Robinson that could be a dominant player in this type of offense.

3. On defense, recruiting would be detached, so with the right guy you're talking about still being able to get good talent and put a good product on the field. Navy is a top 25 team two years in a row despite a woefully undersized front 7 that can't match up with anyone.

Realistically, it's a bad idea because if it doesn't go right people will immediately panic and there WILL be a transition period... so panic is unavoidable, and then you get crap like this year where the internet is unreadable.

1. Yeah I can see a raised floor for the offense. But, the ceiling might come down quite a bit too.

2. Loading up on a bunch of RB and athletic QB's would be fun.

3. Maybe, I still think a flexbone puts a ton of pressure on your own defense. There might be some tackling/fundamentals that would improve in practice I guess. Eating more clock would help. But in the long run the defense probably struggles paired with such a one dimensional offense.

You brought up a good point though. The flexbone would have to come out of the box working well and leading to wins. Any struggles would be really hard to weather.

 

[irishff1014]

Or maybe, just maybe, he's being honest and we're being butt hurt because he chose that shity school instead.

I don't care where he goes. Just don't feed that bullshit line of how much academics mean and blah blah blah. At least he did it now and not 8 weeks from now. We can try to fill his spot.

 

[gkIrish]

I find it funny that I have never seen another comment like this before. I find it odd that he's acting butt hurt because HE didn't want to take a second language.

From Jeter's thread re: Jeter posting an apology tweet:

Something I noticed within that apology tweet was Damar Hamlin's father responding telling him not to apologize for "speaking facts." That, they felt the same way.

 

[Irish Insanity]

^

 

[gkIrish]

If this class starts to fall apart I see no good reason whatsoever to keep BK.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I don't care where he goes. Just don't feed that bullshit line of how much academics mean and blah blah blah. At least he did it now and not 8 weeks from now. We can try to fill his spot.

We may have plenty more spots by the time this is all done

 

[koonja]

If this class starts to fall apart I see no good reason whatsoever to keep BK.

Besides the alleged $30 Million we'd owe his staff to buy out. But if that didn't matter I'd totally agree. I'd actually say there's no reason whatsoever to keep him even if the class stayed together if money wasn't an issue.

 

[irishff1014]

I believe in one of the video's that Kelly spoke in he said this is the youngest team since the 70's if i remember correct.

If we were winning people would be tooting the staffs horn about being so young. So isn't it reasonable that we are having problems because of youth?

 

[gkIrish]

I believe in one of the video's that Kelly spoke in he said this is the youngest team since the 70's if i remember correct.

If we were winning people would be tooting the staffs horn about being so young. So isn't it reasonable that we are having problems because of youth?

In year 7 you should not have massive problems due to youth. It's not like we had a bunch of players leave early for the draft.

 

[BoredIrish]

One other interesting note to think over is the number of top programs who are playing really bad defense this year.

Even just landing a top level DC this winter might be challenging given the competition.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

In year 7 you should not have massive problems due to youth. It's not like we had a bunch of players leave early for the draft.

Huh? Isn't there at least a few who left with eligibility on the table? Maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[irishff1014]

In year 7 you should not have massive problems due to youth. It's not like we had a bunch of players leave early for the draft.

Maybe i should have said youth as in playing time. Our O-line has very limited playing time.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Anyone think the the star is starting to dim a little for Herman since they've dropped a couple of they games they shouldn't have? Especially SMU this past weekend?

I hope he sticks out another year at Houston and we get him at the end of 2017 since apparently we get to go 8-5 or worse next year too, since Captain Jack says we are in great shape.

 

[gkIrish]

Huh? Isn't there at least a few who left with eligibility on the table? Maybe I'm mistaken.

Will Fuller, Jaylon, and Prosise were the ones that left in their Junior years. I think a couple others had eligibility but they had been with the team for 4 years. I am just saying there wasn't a mass exodus and the positions we are short on in terms of depth are not the positions those 3 played.

 

[NDRock]

Will Fuller, Jaylon, and Prosise were the ones that left in their Junior years. I think a couple others had eligibility but they had been with the team for 4 years. I am just saying there wasn't a mass exodus and the positions we are short on in terms of depth are not the positions those 3 played.

Elmer and Corey Robinson as well.

 

[gkIrish]

Elmer and Corey Robinson as well.

Also not problem positions. Nobody in the secondary or on the defensive line left early that I recall (Russell had a year but he was here for 4 years).

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Will Fuller, Jaylon, and Prosise were the ones that left in their Junior years. I think a couple others had eligibility but they had been with the team for 4 years. I am just saying there wasn't a mass exodus and the positions we are short on in terms of depth are not the positions those 3 played.

True.

Although, injuries and dismissals should count for something (Watkins, Redfield). And didn't K. Russell have the opportunity to petition for a 5th year? (Albeit a risky endeavor).

 

[NDRock]

Also not problem positions. Nobody in the secondary or on the defensive line left early that I recall (Russell had a year but he was here for 4 years).

I think we could have used both of them especially for leadership which this team sorely lacks. RG play sure didn't look great last game.

 

[Luckylucci]

FWIW, if we are basing our decisions off of what Jeter and Mario Hamlin tweet, then we should look at the countless kids that have said good things of BK and their dealings with him.

Heck, we just got a commitment from Elijah Hicks, who BK personally recruited to some degree, and had a big impact on landing. The PA boys, outside of Jeter, have all had really good things to say about BK. The list goes on.

I don't want to come across as a BK apologist but this board is taking things and running with them, as if all recruits hate BK. That just isn't true.

Not to mention who they are coming from. It was said that Hamlin's family never wanted Damar to leave home but ND was doing a good job of convincing him to do so. They wanted the staff to keep a spot open for him as long as he wanted, and the staff didn't want to do so, knowing how important it was to land another CB recruit. Got Pride instead. So now, a possibly, butt hurt dad is tweeting about BK, color me not surprised, nor does that change my opinion about BK. There might be other things that do, but that certainly isn't one of them.

On to Jeter, this is a kid who came out in support of BK and staff, just a few weeks ago. Then he decommitts because he said he got wrapped up in the moment committed too fast, and now needed to take his time. Doesn't want to play for a mediocre team. He then turns around and commits to UM on his first visit. So much for taking his time. After doing so, blasts BK for not "being cool" and easy accessible. Really, we're going to use these two as examples of how players and recruits, view BK. Seems like a stretch to me.

 

[NDgradstudent]

FWIW, if we are basing our decisions off of what Jeter and Mario Hamlin tweet, then we should look at the countless kids that have said good things of BK and their dealings with him.

Heck, we just got a commitment from Elijah Hicks, who BK personally recruited to some degree, and had a big impact on landing. The PA boys, outside of Jeter, have all had really good things to say about BK. The list goes on.

I don't want to come across as a BK apologist but this board is taking things and running with them, as if all recruits hate BK. That just isn't true.

Not to mention who they are coming from. It was said that Hamlin's family never wanted Damar to leave home but ND was doing a good job of convincing him to do so. They wanted the staff to keep a spot open for him as long as he wanted, and the staff didn't want to do so, knowing how important it was to land another CB recruit. Got Pride instead. So now, a possibly, butt hurt dad is tweeting about BK, color me not surprised, nor does that change my opinion about BK. There might be other things that do, but that certainly isn't one of them.

On to Jeter, this is a kid who came out in support of BK and staff, just a few weeks ago. Then he decommitts because he said he got wrapped up in the moment committed too fast, and now needed to take his time. Doesn't want to play for a mediocre team. He then turns around and commits to UM on his first visit. So much for taking his time. After doing so, blasts BK for not "being cool" and easy accessible. Really, we're going to use these two as examples of how players and recruits, view BK. Seems like a stretch to me.

You're absolutely right that we shouldn't base assessments of BK on what a couple of recruits say. The case for releasing him is sufficient to justify doing so apart from what any recruit says. That said, many BK defenders believe that recruiting will completely tank if we make a change. This sort of event raises questions about that claim.

 

[dwshade]

In year 7 you should not have massive problems due to youth. It's not like we had a bunch of players leave early for the draft.

What we don't have that other schools have are 5th year seniors. Stanford has 15, we have a couple.

 

[dwshade]

If this class starts to fall apart I see no good reason whatsoever to keep BK.

Much to your chagrin the class isn't falling apart. We have someone like Jeter every year. I know you despise Kelly but fortunately he will return next year.