Another Shooting

Bishop2b5

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Word.

On the other hand, requiring gun owners to also have gun safes and holding them accountable (to a degree) if their gun is then used in a crime is something I don't think is unreasonable.

You want an AR-15? Cool, show me your certified gun safe.

*21 to buy a gun
*8-round clip law
*Pass a mandatory national background check (no violent crimes)
*Must own a gun safe

I'm close to being in complete agreement with you on all this. Yes, I know. I'm shocked too. I have one question/issue/whatever: Keeping your AR-15, hunting rifle, shotgun, pistol collection, etc. Locked up most of the time is reasonable, especially if you have kids in the house. What about the countless people who keep a pistol near their bed for family/home protection, especially at night or when the wife's home alone even during the day. Realistically, in the event of a daytime home invasion or a break-in at night, nobody has time to get to their gun safe and get their weapon. If you make reasonable allowances for people keeping a weapon for protection reasonably accessible yet still out of reach of the kids, then I'm 100% in agreement with you.
 

Bishop2b5

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They already do with bartenders. How much has that quelled sales of alcohol? None.

A bartender is not responsible for the actions of someone he sells alcohol to if they're of legal age and not already intoxicated (completely legal sale). He's only liable if he sells to a minor or someone who's already drunk (illegal sale).
 

no.1IrishFan

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Word.

On the other hand, requiring gun owners to also have gun safes and holding them accountable (to a degree) if their gun is then used in a crime is something I don't think is unreasonable.

You want an AR-15? Cool, show me your certified gun safe.

*21 to buy a gun
*8-round clip law
*Pass a mandatory national background check (no violent crimes)
*Must own a gun safe

As a gun owner and avid sport shooter/hunter this is perfectly reasonable to me.

I'm having a hard time seeing why anyone could possibly think something like this goes too far.
It will not SOLVE our problem, but it's a common sense start.
 
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Cackalacky

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A bartender is not responsible for the actions of someone he sells alcohol to if they're of legal age and not already intoxicated (completely legal sale). He's only liable if he sells to a minor or someone who's already drunk (illegal sale).

Wrong. There are plenty of instances when they are charged with knowingly selling to intoxicated legal age people who drive and get in accidents or pulled over at a minimum. A quick google check will show you are incorrect here. Its called a Dram Shop Law. And manslaughter is a possible charge. 38 states have enacted a version of it. There are also the Social Host laws which are very similar but both are laws that make it a crime to knowingly endanger the public by allowing drunk drivers to get on the road after serving them. .


https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=584

https://injury.findlaw.com/accident-injury-law/social-host-liability.html
 
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Bishop2b5

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Wrong. There are plenty of instances when they are charged with knowingly selling to intoxicated legal age people who drive and get in accidents or pulled over at a minimum. A quick google check will show you are incorrect here. Its called a Dram Shop Law. And manslaughter is a possible charge. 38 states have enacted a version of it. There are also the Social Host laws which are very similar but both are laws that make it a crime to knowingly endanger the public by allowing drunk drivers to get on the road after serving them. .


https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=584

https://injury.findlaw.com/accident-injury-law/social-host-liability.html

Pretty much exactly what I said. I think you misread my post. I said it's legal to sell or provide alcohol to adults who are NOT intoxicated. It's illegal to sell to those who ARE intoxicated and allow them to leave or drive. In that case the bartender or social host is certainly at risk of being held responsible for what the drunk person does.
 
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Cackalacky

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Pretty much exactly what I said. I think you misread my post. I said it's legal to sell or provide alcohol to adults who are NOT intoxicated. It's illegal to sell to those who ARE intoxicated and allow them to leave or drive. In that case the bartender or social host is certainly at risk of being held responsible for what the drunk person does.

Sorry. I did misread it. My point is that these same laws could easily be placed on lethal weapon sales and would help curb some of the larger problems we have with access and paper trails. Law abiding gun owners and honest sales people should have no qualms with these types of things. I think it would also improve paperwork and information gather because no one wants to be held liable for a death because an item they sold irresponsibly was used irresponsibly.
 

Irish YJ

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Hey YJ,. Long time no speak.

Well I can think of several things to do that would make an impact over time. But to the bolded, you make it criminal to allow unauthorized access to your guns. If your gun is used in a crime, you are liable. End of story. Bye bye go straight to jail. I bet the minute someone goes to jail over the fact their kid took their guns and committed crimes, we will see a big change in accessiblity. Also, if you sell a gun that is used in a crime, you are also liable like a bartenders serving alcohol. That would straighten up the gun shows and legal avenues of purchasing really quick as well. And lo and behold you end up later with a populace that is much more upstanding with gun ownership, much like people are with telling your friend to not drink and drive.... There are many possibles and the slippery slope argument is pathetic anyway becasue no on will ever own a Warthog or rail gun or tactical nuke to use against that terrible government oppressors.

Also, laws are not supposed to completely eradicate ALL events. This is the biggest strawman of all the arguments and its pointless to even argue against it or for it IMO so I suggest for arguments sake that people stop using it. If you look at what drunk driving laws have done, we still have 10,000's of incidents an fatalities per year, but the number per billion miles driven is getting smaller every year. With safety features in cars we lose less people in normally fatal accidents. People are now very aware of the problems with drunk driving and for the most part the population is doing pretty good precisely becasue of the stiff penalties and obvious pitfall of dying in an accident or committing vehicular manslaughter.

AS to the security issue, there are so many doors becasue of building codes require it. So... short of changing the INTERNATIONAL Building Codes it is impractical to stage a security guard at every conceivable entrance to every school. This is also a terrible point to try and argue, because these incidents are actually less risky than a possible fire or natural disaster are so the number of egress doors is required by law. So essentially take to the extreme, this argument means we should make schools like prisons and for most sane people, this is not an option either.

Howdy Cack.

As Connor pointed out, already laws on the books in some states about parents guns getting into the hands of kids. I fully support national laws doing the same. In short, we should hold parents accountable for both keeping their guns safe, and for knowing what the hell is going on under their own roofs.

I'm not supportive of holding legal sellers accountable. I'm OK with closing loopholes on sellers, but not holding them accountable for what someone else does.

In terms of security, I'm not saying have a guard at every door. There are other ways to secure doors. Schools should have a central entrance or two that is/are monitored. All other doors should be exit only secured by access control (which will alert when ajar). Access control is pretty standard these days for businesses of all types, and it's not overly complex or expensive. It's a new world, and schools need to do more. I can see a kid smuggling a handgun, but a kid should never be able to get a shotgun or rifle into a school without someone noticing.

All that said, my primary point is that if all these common sense measures and proposed legislation gets passed, when this stuff happens again (and it will), people will be screaming for even more laws and regs.
 
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Cackalacky

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Howdy Cack.

As Connor pointed out, already laws on the books in some states about parents guns getting into the hands of kids. I fully support national laws doing the same. In short, we should hold parents accountable for both keeping their guns safe, and for knowing what the hell is going on under their own roofs.

I'm not supportive of holding legal sellers accountable. I'm OK with closing loopholes on sellers, but not holding them accountable for what someone else does.

In terms of security, I'm not saying have a guard at every door. There are other ways to secure doors. Schools should have a central entrance or two that is/are monitored. All other doors should be exit only secured by access control (which will alert when ajar). Access control is pretty standard these days for businesses of all types, and it's not overly complex or expensive. It's a new world, and schools need to do more. I can see a kid smuggling a handgun, but a kid should never be able to get a shotgun or rifle into a school without someone noticing.

All that said, my primary point is that if all these common sense measures and proposed legislation gets passed, when this stuff happens again (and it will), people will be screaming for even more laws and regs.

They will be desiring laws that actually work IMO. Not everything will work. Some will. We need to solve the problems and we can’t if we don’t do something.
 
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Cackalacky

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Armed With Reason
Gun Safety: The Scientific Evidence
The Drunk Driving Fallacy: Why Gun Regulation is like Drunk Driving Laws
Posted By Evan DeFilippis
For our first post, we thought it would be an excellent idea to tackle one of the most popular analogies used to combat gun control proposals. Although it has been debunked numerous times (most memorably by Jon Stewart), it still somehow persists:

Myth:

“Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.” – Unknown

“Drunk driving. Do we go to the Ford Motor Company and tell them, stop making these automobiles because people get drunk and kill people in cars?” – Jesse Ventura discussing gun control

Overview of Pro-Gun Arguments:

It is hypocritical to treat fatalities from car accidents and fatalities from firearms differently. A life is a life. Yet gun control advocates suggest bans on firearms because they kill, but not on cars.
Regulation on cars and guns is ultimately futile as the real problem lies with the people using the object, not the object itself.
Why punish law abiding citizens for the mistakes of a few irresponsible people?
Reality:

We will establish a basic brightline to challenge all analogies of this sort: regulation is justified when the benefits outweigh the costs. Regulation in one area does not necessitate regulation in all conceivable areas. We could immediately reduce the number of automobile accidents to a trivial amount, for example, if we lowered the speed limit to 10 mph, but such a policy would have unacceptable consequences for productivity loss, economic growth, police enforcement, and so on. This framework is eminently valuable because it forces policymakers to rely on data and cost-benefit analysis, rather than intuition. It’s tempting to reduce policy proposals to argumentum ad absurdum by invitation of analogy, but this is not how good policy is formed. That something appears absurd in a completely different context is not an argument.

This analogy is non-responsive as the social utility of guns and cars differ in orders of magnitude. The fundamental purpose of a car, at its most basic level, is to convey someone from point A to point B. The purpose of a gun, on the other hand, is to inflict a significant amount of damage on whatever or whomever the gun is aimed at once the trigger is pulled. This is true regardless of whether a gun is used for self-defense, hunting, recreation, or murder. Although a life is a life, killing somebody by accident is not the same as killing somebody on purpose. Except in rare circumstances, killing somebody with a car is an accident. Even when intoxicated, the driver’s intent is not to harm another person. When a shooter fires his or her weapon at another person, whether it be in self-defense or not, the intent is to seriously injure or kill the target. Although gun accidents do happen, they result in a distinct minority of the casualties from gun violence (and we support regulation that minimizes the frequency and severity of gun accidents when they do happen). Guns are weapons, cars are a mode of transportation. There is a significant difference. This line of argument also ignores that the only gun ban currently being proposed is on assault rifles, and that there are many effective regulations other than bans to stem gun violence.

Even accepting the analogy as valid, however, leads to the opposite conclusion intended by gun advocates. Instead of illustrating the complete inanity and futility of gun regulation, the analogy highlights the empirical efficacy of car regulation with respect to decreased accident and mortality rates. Regulations on cars and driving have saved nearly 85,000 lives and $600 billion over the past two decades. Even the most simple and ubiquitous safety measures such as seat belts and airbags have reduced mortality rates. Over the past three decades, drunk driving fatalities have fallen 65%. While this staggering drop may not entirely be explained by regulation, the bulk of these changes are a direct result of such policies.

Though this examination of car safety laws is necessarily incomplete, it serves to demonstrate the disingenuousness of gun advocates’ claims: there is a middle ground in the decision between complete freedom and a total ban, and it is our obligation to investigate the options available to us in that respect.

If we wish to continue with the flawed car/gun analogy, we would like to posit a more accurate thought experiment:

Consider the hypothetical “Destroyer” (popularly referred to as the DEV-mobile [Destroy Everything Vehicle]), an armored car/tank hybrid developed for desert warfare by the military. After serving a brief but glorious career in the military, the model was quickly copied by a consortium of car manufacturers and converted for civilian use. Think of the DEV-mobile as a Batmobile facsimile with a couple of crucial differences. First, through a massive safety oversight, somebody forgot locks for the doors while converting the vehicle. Initial concerns were brushed off as who would possibly think of stealing a DEV-mobile, and of course kids would instinctively know not to play with such a fearsome vehicle. Second, through a bizarre loophole meant for segways, you do not need a license to drive a DEV-mobile. Although Congress investigated the issue several times, car manufacturers were able to convince enough lawmakers that licenses really weren’t necessary. Finally, despite the removal of it’s more militaristic features (such as heat-seeking missiles), these elements can be reinstalled if you know the right person at a car show.

As you can probably imagine, the DEV-mobile was an instant success. Manufacturers touted the DEV-mobile as the most macho way to drive anywhere and fully embraced both the name Destroyer and its military credentials. After several years, however, security concerns began to mount. High speed chases were suddenly becoming far more dangerous. Road rage often escalated into a lethal encounter. Children playing in the car would accidently push the wrong button. Gangs began winning street battles against police with remilitarized vehicles. Homicidal maniacs would drive them into crowded public places and push the self-destruct button, killing many innocent bystanders. In an attempt to stem the tide of negative press, manufacturers relabeled the DEV-mobile as the “All Purpose Off Road Camping Vehicle.” Safety concerns were construed by DEV-mobile manufacturers and owners as assaults on their fundamental liberties. DEV-mobile advocates argued Freedom of Movement under the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the United States Constitution gives every American citizen a sacrosanct right to own such a vehicle. When regulation proponents suggested that Americans didn’t need such a destructive, dangerous vehicle in order to satisfy Freedom of Movement– that a basic car was sufficient– DEV-mobile proponents accused regulators of paternalism, of initiating a slippery slope of increasingly reactionary regulations that would eventually reduce each citizens to bicycles and skateboards. Who were these faceless bureaucrats to decide for me and my family what was sufficient for our needs? Why punish law abiding citizens for the crimes of a few? Some DEV-mobile fans went further and suggested the only way to stop a bad guy with a DEV-mobile is a good guy with a DEV-mobile. More DEV-mobiles and easier access to the vehicles should be promoted, not more regulations or, heaven forbid, an outright ban.

Though this analogy, like all analogies, suffers from imprecision, it serves a valuable purpose in illustrating the absurdity of pro-gun rejoinders and, in particular, the weak justification for assault rifles. For starters, the lack of even basic safety measures is troubling. Moreover, the fact that anybody can purchase and drive one of these, without even a background check, is extremely problematic. Even if all the necessary safety measures are implemented, however, we are still left with the question of why anybody should be allowed to own such a vehicle.

However, even this analogy gives too much credit to assault rifles. Whereas one could argue that the DEV-mobile, with a few safety modifications, does potentially have positive purpose, albeit small (conveying a person from point A to point B safely off road), the sole purpose of an assault rifle is to kill or seriously harm as many people as quickly as possible. Unlike a pistol, it is not practical for self-defense. Unlike a hunting rifle, an assault rifle is not meant for hunting or recreation. It is a killing machine. Period. The only remotely plausible rationale (barring Zombies) advanced by gun advocates is that they serve as a useful deterrent against a future authoritarian government takeover. We will demolish this line of “reasoning” in a later post.

Finally, we would like to tackle the idea that gun safety laws and regulations “punish” law abiding citizens. Universal background checks to ensure that the person buying a weapon is not a felon or mentally unstable take a minute or two at most and are in the best interests of everyone. If we wish to return to car regulations, laws mandating airbags and wearing seat belts are not punishment or fundamental assaults on liberty (despite what some extreme libertarians may contend). To the contrary, these minor inconveniences which produce enormous safety benefits produce an environment that maximizes fundamental liberties– after all, you have no freedom once you’re dead. It’s hard for us to see why your right to not wear a seatbelt outweighs another person’s right to not be injured, or be burdened by your healthcare costs, once you become a flying projectile.

Likewise, requiring a license to own a gun, trigger locks, and safe storage requirements are not punishments but rather common sense proposals that make everyone, including the owner, safer. The same is true for banning assault rifles. Just as nobody seriously considers the ban of grenade launchers or Gatling guns an infringement on their right to self-defense or recreation, so to should we consider a ban on assault rifles a necessary response to a policy dilemma.
https://www.armedwithreason.com/the-drunk-driving-fallacy-why-gun-regulation-is-like-drunk-driving-laws/
 

IrishLion

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I'm close to being in complete agreement with you on all this. Yes, I know. I'm shocked too. I have one question/issue/whatever: Keeping your AR-15, hunting rifle, shotgun, pistol collection, etc. Locked up most of the time is reasonable, especially if you have kids in the house. What about the countless people who keep a pistol near their bed for family/home protection, especially at night or when the wife's home alone even during the day. Realistically, in the event of a daytime home invasion or a break-in at night, nobody has time to get to their gun safe and get their weapon. If you make reasonable allowances for people keeping a weapon for protection reasonably accessible yet still out of reach of the kids, then I'm 100% in agreement with you.

Affordable but secure bedside lock-boxes for handguns and other small valuables.

Finger-print activated and unlocked at the touch, just like cell phones.

Let’s start the business and get rich.
 

Irish YJ

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Word.

On the other hand, requiring gun owners to also have gun safes and holding them accountable (to a degree) if their gun is then used in a crime is something I don't think is unreasonable.

You want an AR-15? Cool, show me your certified gun safe.

*21 to buy a gun
*8-round clip law
*Pass a mandatory national background check (no violent crimes)
*Must own a gun safe

I'd be OK with most of this. 21, but 18 if you served in the military.

The gun safe, while I personally wish everyone had one, is not practical for handguns used for home security or things like shotguns for folks like farmers. I'm perfectly fine for mandatory safes for exotics like AK/ARs, etc.
 

Bishop2b5

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Sorry. I did misread it. My point is that these same laws could easily be placed on lethal weapon sales and would help curb some of the larger problems we have with access and paper trails. Law abiding gun owners and honest sales people should have no qualms with these types of things. I think it would also improve paperwork and information gather because no one wants to be held liable for a death because an item they sold irresponsibly was used irresponsibly.

No problem. Seemed pretty clear you'd just misread it. I don't really disagree with you on this. I think almost all of us want some realistic, common sense laws that are fair and reasonable, and allow law abiding, qualified people to own guns for hunting or self protection.

I may have misread you, but my interpretation of your earlier post was that you were in favor of even honest, legit gun sellers who made completely legal sales to qualified buyers still being held responsible for what those people did with the guns. I'm totally in favor of getting rid of illegal sales and holding the seller responsible for the buyer's action if the sale is illegal and/or the buyer not legally or mentally qualified to buy. I'm not in favor of holding the seller responsible if he's done his due diligence and makes a legit, legal sale. If I've misinterpreted you position, clarify please.
 

Bishop2b5

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Affordable but secure bedside lock-boxes for handguns and other small valuables.

Finger-print activated and unlocked at the touch, just like cell phones.

Let’s start the business and get rich.

I don't know that I completely agree with you that this is exactly the best solution or is totally practical, but we're getting close and making serious progress towards figuring out what could work and be acceptable to most. Have your people get in touch with mine and we'll buy a factory and get started.
 

Irish YJ

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They will be desiring laws that actually work IMO. Not everything will work. Some will. We need to solve the problems and we can’t if we don’t do something.

So you are proving my point. Nothing will ever be enough for some.

The problem is, people don't learn from passing laws that don't work. When a law doesn't work but still drives cost (of freedoms or financially), they never un-pass a law.
 
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Cackalacky

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No problem. Seemed pretty clear you'd just misread it. I don't really disagree with you on this. I think almost all of us want some realistic, common sense laws that are fair and reasonable, and allow law abiding, qualified people to own guns for hunting or self protection.

I may have misread you, but my interpretation of your earlier post was that you were in favor of even honest, legit gun sellers who made completely legal sales to qualified buyers still being held responsible for what those people did with the guns. I'm totally in favor of getting rid of illegal sales and holding the seller responsible for the buyer's action if the sale is illegal and/or the buyer not legally or mentally qualified to buy. I'm not in favor of holding the seller responsible if he's done his due diligence and makes a legit, legal sale. If I've misinterpreted you position, clarify please.

Re gun sales... yes I think it’s reasonable to hold them accountable to at least criminal negligence for not doing things properly should their wares be used to commit crimes. Clearly a legal sale of alcohol can lead to some terrible ends. It would place responsibility of proper sales to qualified people squarely in the salesman’s lap. Obviously it will not occur often if done to legit gun owners who are also held to the same standard by maintaining proper care or security at home. This would include tracking secondary points of sales and communicating to the original salesman where the gun is gone. A simple reportable database could be implemented. Should secondary point of sales get to people who commit crimes I think the original gun salesmen could be off the hook if documentation is correct and updated but the secondary sale would be liable after that

Manufacturers also were granted immunity from liability by a federal law in 2005.
 
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Cackalacky

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So you are proving my point. Nothing will ever be enough for some.

The problem is, people don't learn from passing laws that don't work. When a law doesn't work but still drives cost (of freedoms or financially), they never un-pass a law.

That’s not true. Are we still trying to pass drunk driving laws? No drinking alcohol is a right. Its not going anywhere and no one is trying to take it away. It has clear sociaetsl problems and we have a good way of handling it and it’s been effective. It wasn’t the only thing we tried though. We also improved the roads, and road safety and have stigmatized drunk driving to the point that people would rather take a cab than drive. And that is ok.
 

drayer54

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Word.

On the other hand, requiring gun owners to also have gun safes and holding them accountable (to a degree) if their gun is then used in a crime is something I don't think is unreasonable.

You want an AR-15? Cool, show me your certified gun safe.

*21 to buy a gun
*8-round clip law
*Pass a mandatory national background check (no violent crimes)
*Must own a gun safe

Certified gun safe? 8 round clips?

Why should I be able to serve my country and vote, but not own a gun?

Requiring guns to be locked up in a safe is really helpful in a home invasion. Magazine restrictions are another silly restriction that make non gun people feel better.

Here’s a few that may have helped in Texas:
Illegal modification to a weapon?
Prohibited possession from by a minor?
Possession of explosives?
Murder?
Possession on a school ground?
Felony theft?
 

drayer54

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So you are proving my point. Nothing will ever be enough for some.

The problem is, people don't learn from passing laws that don't work. When a law doesn't work but still drives cost (of freedoms or financially), they never un-pass a law.

You can look at knives and crime in Europe to see that people will never stop until everything that scares them is banned.
 

Legacy

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So you are proving my point. Nothing will ever be enough for some.

The problem is, people don't learn from passing laws that don't work. When a law doesn't work but still drives cost (of freedoms or financially), they never un-pass a law.

You would need to formulate your goal for legislation and define your desired outcome. Specify your criteria for works/is not working and time frame for evaluation. You should also consider which legislated issues are being impacted by factors not under your control, e.g. guns crossing state borders for state laws success.

Three interventions that come right to mind:
Background Checks
Waiting Periods
Red Flag Laws

NICS Turns 15: Stats Show Success of FBI’s Gun Background Check System (FBI)
-- with the amount of prohibited persons denied, it would argue to expanding background checks to cover all gun purchases

Waiting Periods (Giffords)
-- allow feds to complete further background checks, decreases crime from impulse, decrease suicides and homicides in domestic violence

Red Flag Laws (Everytown)
- nine states have enacted, twenty-eight more are considering or have considered
- study from 2009-16 show that in 42% of incidents, perps demonstrated warning signs
Red Flag Laws: Where the Bills Stand in Each State (The Trace)
 
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Irish YJ

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That’s not true. Are we still trying to pass drunk driving laws? No drinking alcohol is a right. Its not going anywhere and no one is trying to take it away. It has clear sociaetsl problems and we have a good way of handling it and it’s been effective. It wasn’t the only thing we tried though. We also improved the roads, and road safety and have stigmatized drunk driving to the point that people would rather take a cab than drive. And that is ok.

Actually drinking alcohol is not a "right". And drunk driving deaths are not nearly the lion share of deaths attributed to alcohol. Honestly I'd rather see alcohol and tobacco outlawed than guns. Alcohol and tobacco are responsible for more than 50+x more unnecessary deaths compared to guns. And I'm a smoker that enjoys a cocktail now and then that is saying this.
 

Irish YJ

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You would need to formulate your goal for legislation and define your desired outcome. Specify your criteria for works/is not working and time frame for evaluation. You should also consider which legislated issues are being impacted by factors not under your control, e.g. guns crossing state borders for state laws success.

Three interventions that come right to mind:
Background Checks
Waiting Periods
Red Flag Laws

NICS Turns 15: Stats Show Success of FBI’s Gun Background Check System (FBI)
-- with the amount of prohibited persons denied, it would argue to expanding background checks to cover all gun purchases

Waiting Periods (Giffords)
-- allow feds to complete further background checks, decreases crime from impulse, decrease suicides and homicides in domestic violence

Red Flag Laws (Everytown)
- nine states have enacted, twenty-eight more are considering or have considered
- study from 2009-16 show that in 42% of incidents, perps demonstrated warning signs
Red Flag Laws: Where the Bills Stand in Each State (The Trace)

How often have you seen DC formulate, and reverse a law based on success?
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Certified gun safe? 8 round clips?

Why should I be able to serve my country and vote, but not own a gun?

Because society said so. You can serve your country and vote and not buy a Bud Lite.

Requiring guns to be locked up in a safe is really helpful in a home invasion.

I said it would be a requirement to own a safe, not require that they be stored there. One is free to put their gun anywhere in their home, but if it leaves their possession and is used to kill someone, then you're doing time behind bars. If you leave your gun out and about, you're taking on that risk.

Magazine restrictions are another silly restriction that make non gun people feel better.

Uh huh. Seconds matter. Forcing an assailant to reload more often can save lives.

Stephen Paddock fired 1,100 rounds in his shooting. He had some magazines holding 100-round clips. It can't hurt to make those harder to obtain.

Here’s a few that may have helped in Texas:
Illegal modification to a weapon?
Prohibited possession from by a minor?
Possession of explosives?
Murder?
Possession on a school ground?
Felony theft?

Criminals breaks laws?!?!?!

No one makes laws based on one event. The idea is to make shootings less common and harder to accomplish for the criminal. Otherwise fuck it let's just embrace anarchy huh?
 

Irish YJ

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You can look at knives and crime in Europe to see that people will never stop until everything that scares them is banned.

I would love to see DC do something sensible, I really would. I'd be fine with passing all the things Buster listed plus a few more, but at the same time put a 20 year moratorium on additional gun laws, define clear objectives, and put a revoke clause on any law that doesn't have a noticeable impact.
 

drayer54

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Stephen Paddock fired 1,100 rounds in his shooting. He had some magazines holding 100-round clips. It can't hurt to make those harder to obtain.
Clearly, you are a firearm wizard. This is the other reason gun owners shut down when people who clearly don't know guns try to tell them that they should sacrifice their rights.

Yes, criminals break laws. So why pass more laws that only burden the law-abiding and will have nil impact on criminals? That's not supporting anarchy, that is opposing overreaching laws that unnecessarily infringe on our rights.
 

drayer54

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I would love to see DC do something sensible, I really would. I'd be fine with passing all the things Buster listed plus a few more, but at the same time put a 20 year moratorium on additional gun laws, define clear objectives, and put a revoke clause on any law that doesn't have a noticeable impact.

We already have thousands of laws on the books that restrict guns. Wouldn't it be common sense to gut the ones that aren't working now?

The archaic NFA restrictions are where I would start.
 

Legacy

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We already have thousands of laws on the books that restrict guns. Wouldn't it be common sense to gut the ones that aren't working now?

The archaic NFA restrictions are where I would start.

Drayer is referring to the National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons. The Act, which he implies is not working, has "archaic" restrictions and which he would start to "gut" was originally passed after Prohibition in 1934 in response to gangster killings. It was modified in response to SCOTUS decisions in 1968. The prohibited firearms that he would have legalized are:
Machine guns
This includes any firearm which can fire repeatedly, without manual reloading, "by a single function of the trigger."[8] Both continuous fully automatic fire and "burst fire" (e.g., firearms with a 3-round burst feature) are considered machine gun features. The weapon's receiver is by itself considered to be a regulated firearm. A non-machinegun that may be converted to fire more than one shot per trigger pull by ordinary mechanical skills is determined to be "readily convertible", and classed as a machine gun, such as a KG-9 pistol (pre-ban ones are "grandfathered").

Short-barreled rifles (SBRs)
This category includes any firearm with a buttstock and either a rifled barrel less than 16" long or an overall length under 26". The overall length is measured with any folding or collapsing stocks in the extended position. The category also includes firearms which came from the factory with a buttstock that was later removed by a third party.

Short barreled shotguns (SBSs)
This category is defined similarly to SBRs, but with either a smoothbore barrel less than 18" long or a minimum overall length under 26".

Silencers
This includes any portable device designed to muffle or disguise the report of a portable firearm. This category does not include non-portable devices, such as sound traps used by gunsmiths in their shops which are large and usually bolted to the floor.

Destructive Devices (DDs)
There are two broad classes of destructive devices:
Devices such as grenades, bombs, explosive missiles, poison gas weapons, etc.
Any firearm with a bore over 0.50 inch except for shotguns or shotgun shells which have been found to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. (Many firearms with bores over 0.50" inch, such as 10-gauge or 12-gauge shotguns, are exempted from the law because they have been determined to have a "legitimate sporting use".)

Any other weapon (AOW)
Firearms meeting the definition of "any other weapon" or AOW are weapons or devices capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive. Many AOWs are disguised devices such as pens, cigarette lighters, knives, cane guns and umbrella guns. AOWs can be pistols and revolvers having smooth bore barrels (e.g., H&R Handy-Gun, Serbu Super-Shorty) designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell. While the above weapons are similar in appearance to weapons made from shotguns, they were originally manufactured in the illustrated configuration and are not modified from existing shotguns. As a result, these weapons do not fit within the definition of shotgun or weapons made from a shotgun.[citation needed]

The AOW definition includes specifically described weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more but less than 18 inches in length from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading.

The ATF Firearms Technology Branch has issued opinions that when a pistol (such as an AR-type pistol) under 26" in overall length is fitted with a vertical fore-grip, it is no longer "designed, made and intended to fire ... when held in one hand," and therefore no longer meets the definition of a pistol. Such a firearm then falls only within the definition of "any other weapon" under the NFA.[9]

Source: National Firearms Act (Wiki)

More on machine guns and on devices that would convert a weapon into a machine gun. Source: ATF Rulings on ‘Bump Stocks’
Federal law defines a machine gun as a weapon that “shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.” The definition says it also includes “the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.”

Trump DOJ wants to speed up sales and transfers of machine guns (ABC)

This is an example of one item on gun dealer's - federally licensed or private - shopping list. They poured thirty million dollars into his campaign and expect a return.
 
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drayer54

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The prohibited firearms that he would have legalized are:


Source: National Firearms Act (Wiki)

More on machine guns and on devices that would convert a weapon into a machine gun. Source: ATF Rulings on ‘Bump Stocks’
.

I would legalize suppressors and SBR's. Tweak the language to AOW's. Not advocating for the full legalization of machine guns. States can handle that as they do now. DD's and SBS can stay on the list.

The first ATF decision on bump stocks was correct. They are a stupid novelty item. While I would personally shed no tears if they were banned or slid over to the NFA category, I try to not to passively support restrictions on items just because I do not use them. Since I expect that of non-gun owners, it is only fair to give that to the (very few) bump stock people.
 

Legacy

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Gun lobbies are active in pressing the ATF to change their regulations. The Rep controlled Congress has refused to approve a new ATF Director and frozen ATF's budget for years. Currying favor with the gun industry not only may release some funding, increase gun commerce but also may inhibit the work of enforcement that other branches of the ATF are tasked with.

Exclusive: Gun lobbyist helped write ATF official's proposal to deregulate (CNN)
Behind the scenes, a gun industry lobbyist provided comments that were directly incorporated into an internal memo at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, according to newly disclosed documents -- a white paper that suggested the agency peel back a number of gun regulations.

The white paper was produced by Acting ATF Deputy Director Ronald B. Turk and dated on President Trump's inauguration day, January 20, 2017. It says the agency should consider allowing gun dealers to sell across state lines, loosen restrictions on gun noise suppressors, and pull back on its scrutiny of gun shops.

Although the finalized white paper was leaked last year to the Washington Post, it was not known that Barnes -- a lawyer who has lobbied for the National Rifle Association, a gun show trade group, and gun manufacturers -- had helped draft it in the first place.

Documents revealing the white paper and its never-before-seen drafts were obtained in recent weeks by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a gun control group that sued ATF to release them under public records laws.
"I was surprised to see that the draft document had been emailed out to a gun industry lawyer and the final product took his suggestions as edits -- without any disclosure of that until we went to court to get these documents," said Avery W. Gardiner, co-president of the Brady Center.

Its revised title: "Federal Firearms Regulations: Options to Reduce or Modify Firearms Regulations."

As the Washington Post reported last year, the white paper suggested a number of ways to reduce the agency's regulation of gun manufacturers, dealers, owners and international trade. All of these reflected priorities of the gun industry.

For example, Turk suggested the agency limit its scrutiny of licensed gun dealers at the United States border with Mexico, a strategy meant to limit trafficking semiautomatic weapons to drug cartels in Mexico, where they are illegal. He also recommended that ATF reduce the reporting obligations placed on gun dealers that sell a high number of guns eventually used in crimes and traced by police, to pursue only shops that sold 25 such guns instead of 10. That change "would likely have a positive impact on the firearms industry," he wrote.

Turk's memo also proposed that ATF consider allowing gun dealers to sell across state lines at gun shows, which critics have noted would make it more difficult for law enforcement to track guns used in crimes.

But other provisions in the memo were authored by Barnes, the gun industry lawyer. The documents obtained by the Brady Center reveal the additions and edits that came from him.

In one case, Barnes proposed an entire new section of the memo calling for ATF to conduct "a new sporting purpose study," which would review the usage of AR-15 and AK-47 style semiautomatic rifles by the general public.

"These firearm types are now standard for such sporting activities as bore (sic), coyote, and prairie-dog hunting. ATF should re-examine it's (sic) almost 20 year old study to bring it up to date with the sport shooting landscape of today, which is vastly different than what it was in 1989 and 1998," Barnes added in. Almost identical language appears in the final document.

Gardiner said this addition could reflect the gun industry's anticipation of a court fight about the right to own semiautomatic, military-style long guns, sometimes referred to as "assault weapons." The Supreme Court's 2008 Heller opinion, a landmark case that protected a person's right to own a gun, included a note from Justice Antonin Scalia that asserts a person's right to own guns "in common use." Gun rights advocates could benefit in court from an ATF study that shows these rifles are commonly used.

Barnes also suggested that the ATF do away with the restrictions on imports of Russian weapons like the SKS rifle and Makarov pistol. That suggestion came at a time when the United States is taking the opposite approach, implementing economic sanctions against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine and other reasons. That language was not included in the final white paper.

Reached for comment on Tuesday, Barnes told CNN that there was nothing inappropriate about his contributions.

"We didn't craft anything. We just gave the bureau comments, which is not unusual. The bureau asks the trade for comments all the time," he said.

The NRA's comments on the white paper on its website are:
Turk’s letter displays a new favorability toward reducing regulation on suppressors and reworking importation rules governing “modern sporting rifles” and World War II era military weapons. Such reductions would be good for law-abiding citizens and law enforcement alike; easing the acquisition requirements for the former while lessening the workload of the latter.

When gun rights legislation like reciprocal carry law is stymied in Congress, the NRA pursues litigation, ATF regulatory changes, state pre-emptive laws which handcuff cities' laws, and create fear of a totalitarian government seizing all weapons to rake in donations.
 
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C

Cackalacky

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Actually drinking alcohol is not a "right". And drunk driving deaths are not nearly the lion share of deaths attributed to alcohol. Honestly I'd rather see alcohol and tobacco outlawed than guns. Alcohol and tobacco are responsible for more than 50+x more unnecessary deaths compared to guns. And I'm a smoker that enjoys a cocktail now and then that is saying this.

I am not a constitutional lawyer or such haha but the 9th Amendment says this :
Amendment IX – Non-Enumerated Rights (1791) The Ninth Amendment states, “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” This means that the rights citizens are not limited by those listed in the Constitution.

the 18th amendment prohibited producing and selling alcohol which by its very nature took the right non-enumerated right to imbibe, produce and sell alcohol away from the people. The 21st repealed it. In my ignorant opinion it is a right to imbibe, produce, and sell intoxicating spirits with known societal problems. I think most literalists would accept this assessment. That is not to say reasonable restrictions aimed at protecting citizens is unconstitutional.
 
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IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But won’t this stop law-abiding citizens from getting trench coats? If a bad guy wants a trench coat they’ll just find a way to get one. <a href="https://t.co/awWUIS15mj">https://t.co/awWUIS15mj</a></p>— Alex Wind (@al3xw1nd) <a href="https://twitter.com/al3xw1nd/status/998988724762566658?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 22, 2018</a></blockquote>
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