Another Shooting

[BGIF]

Interesting that Reuters thinks 240 is significant while CNN omits mention.

Interesting that Reuters thinks 240 is significant while CNN omits mention.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security/one-killed-in-paris-knife-attack-by-man-shouting-allahu-akbar-idUSKCN1ID0TK


WORLD NEWSMAY 12, 2018 / 2:51 PM / UPDATED AN HOUR AGO
One killed in Paris knife attack by man shouting 'Allahu akbar'
Ingrid Melander, Emmanuel Jarry

The country has been on high alert amid a series of attacks, commissioned or inspired by the Islamic State militant group, that has killed more than 240 people since 2015.

 

[Legacy]

Is a handgun a military-style weapon? Shotguns? Sniper rifles? It's a very silly term that doesn't actually describe anything. Like Bishop said, if you throw a spoiler on a Camry is it a "high-performance sport car?"

You aren't going to do the following:

A.) Get people to stop using semi-automatic rifles.
B.) Stop selling them to each other
C.) Take them away from folks

People are going to just ignore any laws your folks somehow pass anyway.

At least those people could abandon the pretense of being law-abiding citizens. That's something we gun-owners and non-gun owners, businessmen, physicians and law enforcement, have come to realization of. When it comes down to it, you'll disregard laws you disagree with and don't care about making the nation safer. You're exempting yourselves from the discussions the rest of us are having. Lessening existing gun regulations kills more people and enables more criminals. Stronger gun laws make you safer. Simple.

How NRA members differ from other gun owners | Pew Research Center

Among gun owners, NRA members have a unique set of views and experiences

Three-in-ten U.S. adults say they currently own a gun, and of that group, 19% say they belong to the National Rifle Association. While the demographic profile of NRA members is similar to that of other gun owners, their political views, the way they use their firearms and their attitudes about gun policy differ significantly from gun owners who are not members of the organization.

 

[NorthDakota]

At least those people could abandon the pretense of being law-abiding citizens. That's something we gun-owners and non-gun owners, businessmen, physicians and law enforcement, have come to realization of. When it comes down to it, you'll disregard laws you disagree with and don't care about making the nation safer. You're exempting yourselves from the discussions the rest of us are having. Lessening existing gun regulations kills more people and enables more criminals. Stronger gun laws make you safer. Simple.

How NRA members differ from other gun owners | Pew Research Center

People will ignore laws that violate their natural rights.

People would love a safe America. And we already live in a safe place. I've lived my whole life in two very gun friendly states. Never heard a gunshot other than for sport. Not particularly affluent areas either, particularly here in Flawwwwda.

Gun rights have consequences, it may lead to more deaths than a nation without, but..you've ignored a few basic truths.

1. People are not going to give up their guns. Your laws will mean nothing.

2. Do you want secession movements? Because it sounds like you do. I'm guessing you arent from a gun nut area, you go after guns... you are quite literally going after a way of life in a country that doesn't need any more of that than we already do.

If you want to cut down on bad shit, I'd consider enforcing laws on the books already. People will be more receptive to that. We are a very very very unique country. Dont bother trying to model off other countries. That dog wont hunt.

Lot of literally #fakenews about guns out there.

 

[Legacy]

People will ignore laws that violate their natural rights.

People would love a safe America. And we already live in a safe place. I've lived my whole life in two very gun friendly states. Never heard a gunshot other than for sport. Not particularly affluent areas either, particularly here in Flawwwwda.

Gun rights have consequences, it may lead to more deaths than a nation without, but..you've ignored a few basic truths.

1. People are not going to give up their guns. Your laws will mean nothing.

2. Do you want secession movements? Because it sounds like you do. I'm guessing you arent from a gun nut area, you go after guns... you are quite literally going after a way of life in a country that doesn't need any more of that than we already do.

If you want to cut down on bad shit, I'd consider enforcing laws on the books already. People will be more receptive to that. We are a very very very unique country. Dont bother trying to model off other countries. That dog wont hunt.

Lot of literally #fakenews about guns out there.

Scalia in Heller:

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.

I've touched on all these subjects before as well as included surveys on solutions broken down by gun-owners and non-gun owners. I am continually impressed by the fantasies of "take away my guns", that the 2nd Amendment should not allow any restrictions and that individual states and communities can't determine their own gun policies to address their differing situations. Same old fear-mongering rhetoric, which more and more Reps are rejecting. Imposing your views on others with federal restrictions when you live in different situations runs contrary to states rights of determination. NRA people just have radically different viewpoints than the rest of us. I have family members who've gone to war and will not touch a gun. They also see the devastation their fellow veterans have with PTSD that end up in suicides and may end up killing their partner or spouse. They stay in contact with their fellow veterans and intervene by taking away their guns when they are struggling. You say "people" will succeed and, basically, go to war with the rest of us. You really are arming yourself to kill other Americans who want to take measures to increase their safety? When you don't live in their situations, who are you to judge?

Article of interest to me whether you are on not:
Firearm ownership among American veterans: findings from the 2015 National Firearm Survey
https://injepijournal.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40621-017-0130-y

Talk to the other side if you lived in a rural area.
Rural and urban gun owners have different experiences, views on gun policy | Pew Research Center

 

[Legacy]

3 men charged with trafficking dozens of guns bought over Armslist.com to Chicago gang members (Chicago Trib)

Three men have been charged in federal court in Chicago in a firearms trafficking scheme involving dozens of weapons purchased in Kentucky through a controversial website before being resold to gang members and drug dealers in the city and suburbs.

The charges alleged that as many as 90 guns purchased through Armslist.com in 2016 and 2017 wound up on the streets in the Chicago area, including one that was recovered during an armed carjacking in Westchester and others found during narcotics and gang investigations.

Armslist has come under increased scrutiny in recent years by gun control advocates because the online marketplace does not require a would-be purchaser to register or identify himself or herself in any way. In a 2017 gun trace report, the city of Chicago noted that the number of guns available on Armslist had jumped to 148,000 from 12,000 — a 12-fold increase — since 2011.

In March, the Chicago Tribune reported that the Glock pistol used to kill Chicago police Cmdr. Paul Bauer had been sold through Armslist to a Milwaukee man in 2017 before winding up in the hands of a convicted felon who allegedly shot Bauer during a confrontation outside the Thompson Center.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

3 men charged with trafficking dozens of guns bought over Armslist.com to Chicago gang members (Chicago Trib)

So criminals don't follow the law?

 

[Legacy]

So criminals don't follow the law?

Exactly. But at this point, Armslist has some protection from liability for participation and enabling those criminal activities based on the NRA-backed Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act Reverting to prior that Act in 2005 would restore gun commerce liability to the same status as any other industry. The Act basically inhibits prosecution of this criminal activity and enforcement of current laws. A Wisconsin lawsuit against Armslist, which is found to be exempt from that Act, has moved forward as well as another against the criminal actions in disregard of public safety by Badger Guns.

 

[NorthDakota]

Exactly. But at this point, Armslist has some protection from liability for participation and enabling those criminal activities based on the NRA-backed Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act Reverting to prior that Act in 2005 would restore gun commerce liability to the same status as any other industry. The Act basically inhibits prosecution of this criminal activity and enforcement of current laws. A Wisconsin lawsuit against Armslist, which is found to be exempt from that Act, has moved forward as well as another against the criminal actions in disregard of public safety by Badger Guns.

So what's going to stop guys from gun running from North Dakota or similar states to Illinois?

You specifically said you want local areas to be able to "ban" certain weapons (GUNS) for the sake of safety. How are you going to stop gunrunners? Sounds like you just created a great market opportunity for an aspiring businessman.

 

[Legacy]

So what's going to stop guys from gun running from North Dakota or similar states to Illinois?

You specifically said you want local areas to be able to "ban" certain weapons (GUNS) for the sake of safety. How are you going to stop gunrunners? Sounds like you just created a great market opportunity for an aspiring businessman.

As you have rightly pointed out, criminals will continue their criminal activity. The only constitutionally allowable "bans" on weapons are the semi-automatic or "military style" weapons (states that have have detailed which models). High capacity mags, and certain accessories can also be addressed. Waiting periods, emergency gun violence restraining orders are a couple of other reasonable measures communities may consider.

We need to regulate in such a way that the law-abiding citizen's commerce is separated from those who are criminals. Not requiring background checks on private sales and having websites that facilitate weapons transfers among prohibited persons endangers each of us more not to mention the cost to victims and their families and to taxpayers for health care.

The "great market opportunity for an aspiring businessman" in illegal gun trafficking will mean he will pay a price for his actions under gun crime charging and sentencing guidelines.

 

[drayer54]

As you have rightly pointed out, criminals will continue their criminal activity. The only constitutionally allowable "bans" on weapons are the semi-automatic or "military style" weapons (states that have have detailed which models). High capacity mags, and certain accessories can also be addressed. Waiting periods, emergency gun violence restraining orders are a couple of other reasonable measures communities may consider.

We need to regulate in such a way that the law-abiding citizen's commerce is separated from those who are criminals. Not requiring background checks on private sales and having websites that facilitate weapons transfers among prohibited persons endangers each of us more not to mention the cost to victims and their families and to taxpayers for health care.

The "great market opportunity for an aspiring businessman" in illegal gun trafficking will mean he will pay a price for his actions under gun crime charging and sentencing guidelines.

Armslist, etc. are just a marketplace that make it easier to find a buyer for the gun. People still have to meet the legal requirements for the sale, which vary by state. People who want to discourage gun sales and gun ownership just want to complicate the sale by making it harder to find a buyer and adding a tax to the sale in the form of an additional background check. In my state, we check the permit of the buyer, which is a de facto background check with no added tax or complications. Works great.

I hope guy who stopped the shooting in Illinois today has no hard time getting a weapon.

 

[IrishLax]

Armed security guard in school in Illinois stops school shooting with zero fatalities.

 

[Irish YJ]

Armed security guard in school in Illinois stops school shooting with zero fatalities.

School shooters are weak ass predators. When confronted they shrivel like like a johnson taking a polar bear plunge. Of course anti gun folks will fail to realize the benefit for armed guards or teachers in schools.

 

[IrishLax]

School shooters are weak ass predators. When confronted they shrivel like like a johnson taking a polar bear plunge. Of course anti gun folks will fail to realize the benefit for armed guards or teachers in schools.

I think arming teachers is dumb. I think having trained, armed security officers in every school is smart. It's proven that deterrents work... in urban environments with heavy police presence and metal detectors and such there is only a tiny fraction of the school shootings that happen in suburban communities. Yet, the total amount of gun violence committed by youth in urban environments... often targeting current/former classmates... is higher. It shows that Step 1 in any policy to curb school shootings should be to make them stop looking like a "soft target."

 

[GowerND11]

I think arming teachers is dumb. I think having trained, armed security officers in every school is smart. It's proven that deterrents work... in urban environments with heavy police presence and metal detectors and such there is only a tiny fraction of the school shootings that happen in suburban communities. Yet, the total amount of gun violence committed by youth in urban environments... often targeting current/former classmates... is higher. It shows that Step 1 in any policy to curb school shootings should be to make them stop looking like a "soft target."

Agreed. In no way do I think teachers should be armed. I'm a teacher, and I could never support that.

 

[drayer54]

Not every teacher should be armed. A lot would never want to be. BUT, someone in the building should be. One or two trained people per school is reasonable.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Agreed. In no way do I think teachers should be armed. I'm a teacher, and I could never support that.

Curious...I'm very familiar with your area of PA. Would you feel the same way at a high school like Harrisburg or Chester with no metal detectors and no armed guards?

 

[NorthDakota]

I think arming teachers is dumb. I think having trained, armed security officers in every school is smart. It's proven that deterrents work... in urban environments with heavy police presence and metal detectors and such there is only a tiny fraction of the school shootings that happen in suburban communities. Yet, the total amount of gun violence committed by youth in urban environments... often targeting current/former classmates... is higher. It shows that Step 1 in any policy to curb school shootings should be to make them stop looking like a "soft target."

I have no problem with a school arming some teachers.

Say "rural" locations like my high school or smaller, Probably around 25% of our teachers were either hunters or very comfortable with a firearm. Definitely a group that could easily handle a firearm if needed and hopefully with additional training I'm sure many of them would be more than happy to take. They literally taught hunter safety in our schools in 5th or 6th grade, just like sex ed. 11 and 12 year olds handling (unloaded) guns in school.

In urban areas, I can see why some might be less comfortable with that. If they want to hire guards rather than arm teachers, I suppose that's fine as well.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I have no problem with a school arming some teachers.

Say "rural" locations like my high school or smaller, Probably around 25% of our teachers were either hunters or very comfortable with a firearm. Definitely a group that could easily handle a firearm if needed and hopefully with additional training I'm sure many of them would be more than happy to take. They literally taught hunter safety in our schools in 5th or 6th grade, just like sex ed. 11 and 12 year olds handling (unloaded) guns in school.

In urban areas, I can see why some might be less comfortable with that. If they want to hire guards rather than arm teachers, I suppose that's fine as well.

I'm with you on this. When I was in HS, there was a gun safety class and I can, just off the top of my head, think of at least 5 or 6 teachers who were hunters or former military and would've been very comfortable with and suitable for being armed. I can certainly see it being a reasonable option in small towns or rural areas where the local police force may only have a very few officers and having to keep a few of them at schools each day is difficult from a manpower & financial standpoint.

It's a sad commentary on what's happened in our culture, but lots of churches are now having one or more armed people at every service. My mom's church has at least two armed members at every service (one in the auditorium and one outside). Most of them are LEO's who are members of the church, but some are non-LEO's who are trained & comfortable with guns and have a CC permit. It's sad that our schools & churches have to do this now.

 

[Irish YJ]

I think arming teachers is dumb. I think having trained, armed security officers in every school is smart. It's proven that deterrents work... in urban environments with heavy police presence and metal detectors and such there is only a tiny fraction of the school shootings that happen in suburban communities. Yet, the total amount of gun violence committed by youth in urban environments... often targeting current/former classmates... is higher. It shows that Step 1 in any policy to curb school shootings should be to make them stop looking like a "soft target."

I'm not saying anyone should make a teacher carry. I'm saying they should be allowed to carry assuming they are willing to be stringently trained.

 

[pkt77242]

I have no problem with a school arming some teachers.

Say "rural" locations like my high school or smaller, Probably around 25% of our teachers were either hunters or very comfortable with a firearm. Definitely a group that could easily handle a firearm if needed and hopefully with additional training I'm sure many of them would be more than happy to take. They literally taught hunter safety in our schools in 5th or 6th grade, just like sex ed. 11 and 12 year olds handling (unloaded) guns in school.

In urban areas, I can see why some might be less comfortable with that. If they want to hire guards rather than arm teachers, I suppose that's fine as well.

You do realize that hunting an animal is nothing like confronting an active shooter right?

Most states struggle to find competent teachers and now you want to take the time away from perfecting their craft (teaching) to become fully trained in handling active shooter situations? That isn’t a good idea. Hire professionals that are trained for that job.

 

[Legacy]

Armslist, etc. are just a marketplace that make it easier to find a buyer for the gun. People still have to meet the legal requirements for the sale, which vary by state. People who want to discourage gun sales and gun ownership just want to complicate the sale by making it harder to find a buyer and adding a tax to the sale in the form of an additional background check. In my state, we check the permit of the buyer, which is a de facto background check with no added tax or complications. Works great.

I hope guy who stopped the shooting in Illinois today has no hard time getting a weapon.

We're all in agreement that private sales are used by criminals for gun trafficking. As NDakota implied, states putting such measures as background checks and records of transactions would drive a lot of gun commerce underground and create a "great market opportunity for an aspiring businessman" in that underground arms sales.

Mayors Against Illegal Guns found that states that do not require background checks for all handgun sales at gun shows are the source of crime guns recovered in other states at a rate more than two and a half times greater than states that do. Criminals will obtain guns. It's easy for one to travel to a gun show where private dealers don't do background checks and bring it back to commit a crime in a tough gun law state. Twenty-five to fifty percent of dealers at gun shows are private sellers without a federal license.

A study by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) from June 2000 reviewed over 1,500 ATF investigations and concluded that gun shows are a “major trafficking channel,” associated with approximately 26,000 firearms diverted from legal to illegal commerce.

Similarly, no one is arguing that guns are sold to prohibited people through the on-line marketplaces like Armslist, which is even easier and less conspicuous than having to go to a gun show.

3 men charged with trafficking dozens of guns bought over Armslist.com to Chicago gang members (Chicago Trib)

In Illinois, private sales to anyone without a Firearm Owners ID card, a credential that demonstrates the buyer is legally allowed to own a weapon, is forbidden. But just south of the Ohio River, individual gun owners can legally sell to others without performing any kind of background check or verification. The gang members from the above story were able to buy ninety guns through Armslist from someone in Kentucky.

Armslist's lawyers point out that in order to enter their website, users must attest that they agree not to use its website for any illegal purpose. That with the NRA-backed Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act immunizes them from liability lawsuits.

Check out their website:
Armslist website
Any dumb criminal can "Agree", set up an account, and begin buying weapons. In a 2017 gun trace report, the city of Chicago noted that the number of guns available on Armslist had jumped to 148,000 from 12,000 — a 12-fold increase — since 2011.

Armlist further separates sellers as "premium vendors" aka Federally Licensed, requiring a background check, or "private sellers". Users can limit their searches to private sellers, and users are not required to register so they can be anonymous. Plus there is no waiting period. There are cases where a domestic abuser with a restraining order preventing him from possessing a gun, buys one through Armslist, has it shipped to him (against the law) and kills his spouse or girlfriend.

As for a "tax to the sale in the form of an additional background check", wouldn't you prefer to have that additional level of determining if someone is a felon? But then, the NRA fought to make entering felons into the national background check system optional for states. Seven million felony convictions were missing by 2013 or 25% of all felony convictions. The Chicago gang members' convictions from the Armslist article above were in the background check system and would have shown up when the Kentucky seller(s) sold gang members ninety guns, which could have alerted law enforcement prior to their subsequent crimes.

 

[phork]

I love that video where they hire a young looking actor (say 13 I think) to try and go buy lottery tickets, cigarettes, alcohol, rent porn, and lastly buy a gun at a gun show.

Which thing was he allowed to purchase without question? Thats a problem.

 

[Cackalacky]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING UPDATE: Multiple students killed in shooting at Santa Fe High School in Texas, federal official says <a href="https://t.co/2zIWNaQvPa">https://t.co/2zIWNaQvPa</a> <a href="https://t.co/JciSevTXUN">pic.twitter.com/JciSevTXUN</a></p>— NBC Charlotte (@wcnc) <a href="https://twitter.com/wcnc/status/997482311485673472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 18, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[GowerND11]

Curious...I'm very familiar with your area of PA. Would you feel the same way at a high school like Harrisburg or Chester with no metal detectors and no armed guards?

I work with kids from those areas. Granted, they are in Juvie, so they can't be armed. But, yeah. When do you hear of school shootings at urban schools? Most (all) of them already have metal detectors and security. I'm all in favor of having armed security/police at the school, but I think having teachers armed is setting up for some kind of bad things.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I love that video where they hire a young looking actor (say 13 I think) to try and go buy lottery tickets, cigarettes, alcohol, rent porn, and lastly buy a gun at a gun show.

Which thing was he allowed to purchase without question? Thats a problem.

Honest question, as I really don't know. Are gun shows totally unregulated and would a 13-year-old be allowed to buy a gun at one?

 

[Legacy]

Honest question, as I really don't know. Are gun shows totally unregulated and would a 13-year-old be allowed to buy a gun at one?

Gun Shows: Brady Checks and Crime Gun Traces (ATF)

In general, this is a good review of laws on gun shows, including criminal activity. Federally Licensed dealers (FFLs) require background checks. Non-FFLs do not, making up 25-50% of dealers at gun shows. A parent may buy a gun for their child or juvenile (<18), which is effectively a straw purchase, from either type of dealer but there is usually no record of the transaction with non-FFLs. States differ on their laws for gun shows. California requires all dealers at gun shows to be licensed, perform background checks on all sales and with a waiting period. ATF investigations have shown (see above) a number of illegal transfers of weapons and documentation of many used in crimes afterwards. Federal law prohibits handgun possession by anyone under 18. But thirty states allow possession of a rifle or shotgun by a child/juvenile (under 18), including Texas.

In 30 states, a child can still legally own a rifle or shotgun (WaPo)

At this time, the shooter at Santa Fe H.S., is reported to be 17 with eight fatalities. Univ. of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston (UTMB), as a Trauma 1 hospital, probably accepts those with the most serious wounds, but all nearby hospitals would accept lesser serious wounds. Triage is done at the scene. Galveston is 20 miles away. Explosive devices found at the scene. The shooter reportedly had a handgun, a shotgun and a high-ballistic, semi-automatic weapon.

 

[NorthDakota]

Gun Shows: Brady Checks and Crime Gun Traces (ATF)

In general, this is a good review of laws on gun shows, including criminal activity. Federally Licensed dealers (FFLs) require background checks. Non-FFLs do not, making up 25-50% of dealers at gun shows. A parent may buy a gun for their child or juvenile (<18), which is effectively a straw purchase, from either type of dealer but there is usually no record of the transaction with non-FFLs. States differ on their laws for gun shows. California requires all dealers at gun shows to be licensed, perform background checks on all sales and with a waiting period. ATF investigations have shown (see above) a number of illegal transfers of weapons and documentation of many used in crimes afterwards. Federal law prohibits handgun possession by anyone under 18. But thirty states allow possession of a rifle or shotgun by a child/juvenile (under 18), including Texas.

In 30 states, a child can still legally own a rifle or shotgun (WaPo)

At this time, the shooter at Santa Fe H.S., is reported to be 17 with eight fatalities. Univ. of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston (UTMB), as a Trauma 1 hospital, probably accepts those with the most serious wounds, but all nearby hospitals would accept lesser serious wounds. Triage is done at the scene. Galveston is 20 miles away. Explosive devices found at the scene. The shooter reportedly had a handgun, a shotgun and a high-ballistic, semi-automatic weapon.

What the fuck is a high-ballistic semi automatic weapon?

High performance camry again?

 

[phork]

Honest question, as I really don't know. Are gun shows totally unregulated and would a 13-year-old be allowed to buy a gun at one?

No clue, but watch:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qJsmKQBx0eo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Cackalacky]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING UPDATE: Multiple students killed in shooting at Santa Fe High School in Texas, federal official says <a href="https://t.co/2zIWNaQvPa">https://t.co/2zIWNaQvPa</a> <a href="https://t.co/JciSevTXUN">pic.twitter.com/JciSevTXUN</a></p>— NBC Charlotte (@wcnc) <a href="https://twitter.com/wcnc/status/997482311485673472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 18, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

8 dead, subject in custody

 

[Irish YJ]

saying 10 dead now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/05/18/texas-school-shooting-suspect-dimitrios-pagourtzis/623438002/

Pagourtzis played defensive tackle on the Santa Fe High School junior varsity football team, and was a member of a dance squad with a local Greek Orthodox church. In a recap of an October Santa Fe High JV victory, Pagourtzis was among players credited with playing "a huge role" in stopping the Ball High School's JV running game in a 14-0 victory.

Social media accounts that appear to belong to Pagourtzis but were taken down in the aftermath of the incident featured photos of firearms, a knife, and a custom-made T-shirt emblazoned with the words "Born to Kill." He also posted a photo of a coat that included Nazi insignia.