Another Shooting

[Blazers46]

Why not both? What’s your solution for either? Other than blaming the government for being bad at stuff?

I thought you would never ask. Personally I own a 17 acre farm. I have a 10k sqft building sitting empty. I am building a house I intended to live in and then with cost of supplies being so low at the time we decided it would be fruitful to build 2 houses at once on the same land. We have an apartment attached to the building with the intent of adding apartment style buildings inside of the building.

The goal is start to a communal type facility for kids 15 to 21 aging out of the foster care system or even take in kids from fatherless situations and work with them on life skills, trade skills and also teaching them about community and how to just be a responsible adult.

You?

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

1. Easy access to getting what you want in terms of weapons
2. Internet
3. Decline in mental health
4. Rise in domestic terrorism
5. Pandemic

It's a Molotov cocktail of shit. 1 and 4 stick out to me most.

Since we're on Chicago, I lived there for 23 years. Been in the suburbs for 21. More recently, however, their mayor decided that closing down some mental health centers and schools to save tax payers a few million dollars would be beneficial. These centers and schools were predominantly on the South and West side of the city in predominantly non white neighborhoods. What happened next was a major spike in crime. Ended up being a horrible decision on just about every front possible. Civilian kids now had to walk further to school because the school a few blocks from home closed. They were going through gang infested neighborhoods and the gangs of today don't have much of a code for civilians, athletes, etc.

That mayor was everyone's favorite neoliberal "Wreck It" Rahm Emmanuel.

Prior to that, Mayor Richard M. Daley wanted Chicago to get the summer Olympics. He started a gentrification process on a very grand scale. This included tearing down multiple high rise housing projects on the city's south side to make way for potential structures for the Olympics to be built. Now the issue with this was two fold: 1) law enforcement was able to confine all of the gangs to these high rise buildings. Once the buildings were torn down, the tenants (civilian and gang) were dispersed out into neighborhoods within a small radius but spread nonetheless. The result was chaos. 2) Chicago's Olympic bid was the first one to be eliminated from the process and they hosted nothing. Daley walked away and made way from Wreck it Rom Com.

All that being said, a lot of what is being portrayed on both right wing and left wing media about Chicago is very exaggerated. When you break down the city's issues per capita, compare them to some of the places I mentioned earlier like St. Louis, Baltimore, Memphis, Little Rock, etc.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The bolded is just wrong. Even the shooting yesterday - the most recent one - the weapon was purchased legally.

Obtaining a gun legally and being a typical mentally stable law-abiding citizen are two different things. The guy who shot up the parade in Chicago was mentally unstable and there were all sorts of red flags that he was dangerous and had no business possessing a weapon of any kind. His having a gun is a shortcoming in our system for identifying such people and intervening before they kill. I'm 100% for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. I'm not in favor of disarming everyone else. It doesn't help.

 

[GATTACA!]

I thought you would never ask. Personally I own a 17 acre farm. I have a 10k sqft building sitting empty. I am building a house I intended to live in and then with cost of supplies being so low at the time we decided it would be fruitful to build 2 houses at once on the same land. We have an apartment attached to the building with the intent of adding apartment style buildings inside of the building.

The goal is start to a communal type facility for kids 15 to 21 aging out of the foster care system or even take in kids from fatherless situations and work with them on life skills, trade skills and also teaching them about community and how to just be a responsible adult.

You?

That’s very commendable of you. If I was ever in a station in life where it was possible for me to do something similar I’d heavily consider it. Unfortunately though that’s a micro solution for a macro problem and unless tens of thousands are inspired to do something similar we’re not going to see an major shift in the direction we need to go.

 

[Blazers46]

That’s very commendable of you. If I was ever in a station in life where it was possible for me to do something similar I’d heavily consider it. Unfortunately though that’s a micro solution for a macro problem and unless tens of thousands are inspired to do something similar we’re not going to see an major shift in the direction we need to go.

But it isn't. It does not take a lot for a community to be a community. There is a reason all these red flag kids are left to their own vices. People dont give a shit anymore. "I have my own life"...."I have my own family".... "I have my own problems"... "I just don't want to get involved".... "I can't afford to help".

 

[Bishop2b5]

I didn’t deflect. I mostly agree with you. The internet has bred a subset of hopeless losers that are mad at the world and are being fed a constant eco chamber of antisocial bullshit.

Mentally deranged people are the reason WHY. Not the reason HOW. That’s why I brought up other westernized nations. I doubt we’re the only one with an uptick in mentally deranged losers. Yet we’re the only one with a mass shooting problem that seems to be getting worse. The reason is obvious.

I agree with you on all but your last sentence. If you could magically remove every gun from the US, then yes, you'd obviously have less gun violence. If you could magically remove every car you'd have fewer drunk driving fatalities. Neither addresses the actual cause, only the method. We ALL want to see these shootings end. We just disagree on how to make that happen.

Other countries also have deranged people getting antagonized and worked up in echo chambers, but there are a lot of differences in all those places in cultural, ethnic, political, mental health use, law enforcement, and etc. I pointed out a month or so ago that if you remove the shootings from a handful of large cities in the US, our gun violence rates drop to some of the lowest in the world. The vast majority of shootings take place in overcrowded cities with overwhelmed mental health services, judicial systems unable or unwilling to remove and keep criminals off the streets, and high levels of gang/drug activity. Joe Average living In the rest of the country rarely if ever commits such gun violence, yet he's who you want to disarm.

How can you look at Chicago and then think more restrictive laws are the answer? That's like the old saying about doing the same thing but thinking you'll get a different result. It doesn't work in Chicago or Detroit or Los Angeles or Philly or DC or anywhere else in this country. Criminals gonna criminal. They'll get them from Mississippi or Indiana or wherever, and if you close off those sources, Mexico will gladly take up the slack.

Do you want to actually eliminate most of the gun violence, or do you want to keep pushing the same old useless and ineffective ideas? If you genuinely want to reduce it, address the underlying causes. Better mental health screening and treatment. Enforce the current gun laws instead of passing more (that won'tbe enforced either) just so politicians can hold a press conference and pat themselves on the back for "taking a stand" or "doing something." In other words, get the nuts and criminals off the streets. Do something that actually WORKS instead of what just sounds good.

 

[Blazers46]

I will add. Men/Boys today lack purpose. If these mass shooters had someone, specifically another man, teach them how to find purpose these things would not have happened. A man with a purpose doesn't commit acts of violence that go against their purpose... unless they find their own purpose.

Imagine being a fatherless 16 year old boy. No man to show you how to act or role model what a man is supposed to look like. Imagine being that same 16 year old boy spending time watching other kids play with their fathers, travel with their fathers, act like their fathers, changing oil with their fathers... and in that time this kid is on the internet being told masculinity is toxic, being a man is essentially bad. There is not man to teach him or show him how a man talks to a woman or treat a woman. But you watch the feminization of America on TV and Internet that men are sexist and toxic and not really even needed. He looks at his own situation where is father is absent and his mom is either living off government or working full time to make a living... in either case mom is "making it" without a man. He sees on socail media or TV all these Americans living the American dream. All these people making money, making a name for themselves... some for just really stupid stuff. This boy has a right to be angry. Its understandable hes confused. Its undertandable he has high expecations since he lives in this "utpian society" called America... there is not reason for him to fail... he is told he can do anything if he puts his mind to it. When this kid turns 18-19 he starts to realize life is hard... how do I become somebody? I have no skills, I have no knowledge.... all I have is this anger and frustration.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

But it isn't. It does not take a lot for a community to be a community. There is a reason all these red flag kids are left to their own vices. People dont give a shit anymore. "I have my own life"...."I have my own family".... "I have my own problems"... "I just don't want to get involved".... "I can't afford to help".

This has been the attitude and message for a global society focused on money and individualism for the last five decades. The bill is finally due and now that this line of thinking is intersecting with a series of major issues that we now face as a collective, how can anyone be surprised by the results? On top of it all, we were turned against each other when in reality the majority of far more in common than we realize.

So in addition to the anger, bitterness and spite....America is not a serious nation. Why would we be at this point? We currently have two political parties. One has a platform of "Own the Libs" and "Let's Go Brandon." The other are a bunch of corporate neocons in their 60s and 70s whose primary focus is not upsetting persuadable voters and think that "taking what we can get" is still going to work when the situation is for more urgent and dire for most of us who don't have a private jet to just get away when shit hits our fan.

The vast majority of people in this country would be united. Instead we're divided along political, ideological and religious lines so we get scraps and fight for what's left over.

 

[Blazers46]

This has been the attitude and message for a global society focused on money and individualism for the last five decades. The bill is finally due and now that this line of thinking is intersecting with a series of major issues that we now face as a collective, how can anyone be surprised by the results? On top of it all, we were turned against each other when in reality the majority of far more in common than we realize.

So in addition to the anger, bitterness and spite....America is not a serious nation. Why would we be at this point? We currently have two political parties. One has a platform of "Own the Libs" and "Let's Go Brandon." The other are a bunch of corporate neocons in their 60s and 70s whose primary focus is not upsetting persuadable voters and think that "taking what we can get" is still going to work when the situation is for more urgent and dire for most of us who don't have a private jet to just get away when shit hits our fan.

The vast majority of people in this country would be united. Instead we're divided along political, ideological and religious lines so we get scraps and fight for what's left over.

So then is your solution more government? Are we just giving up on people and depending on government now?

 

[Valpodoc85]

Denmark had a mall shooting July third. Killed three. Used a hunting rifle. Denmark has strict gun ownership laws. Seems like the times.
The fact that we are so obsessed with the individual and have neglected the group has generated this problem. Humans need to belong to a group. Need to be cared for by others. The common denominator is not weapons or psychiatric illness but loneliness

 

[GATTACA!]

But it isn't. It does not take a lot for a community to be a community. There is a reason all these red flag kids are left to their own vices. People dont give a shit anymore. "I have my own life"...."I have my own family".... "I have my own problems"... "I just don't want to get involved".... "I can't afford to help".

You're asking for what would amount to a cultural revolution. While I think that would have a positive effect, it's just not a realistic solution to this problem. Pandora's box has been opened.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

Denmark had a mall shooting July third. Killed three. Used a hunting rifle. Denmark has strict gun ownership laws. Seems like the times.
The fact that we are so obsessed with the individual and have neglected the group has generated this problem. Humans need to belong to a group. Need to be cared for by others. The common denominator is not weapons or psychiatric illness but loneliness

I think this is so accurate……every one of these dudes that decide to lash out at the world are loners with a score to settle with the world because they aren’t able to see another solution. They spend an inordinate amount of time online, by themselves just simmering in their loneliness. They plan on ways that they can get “revenge” against the people that make them feel that way. We can certainly try to keep guns out of their hands but it’s a monumental task any way you slice it.

 

[GATTACA!]

I agree with you on all but your last sentence. If you could magically remove every gun from the US, then yes, you'd obviously have less gun violence. If you could magically remove every car you'd have fewer drunk driving fatalities. Neither addresses the actual cause, only the method. We ALL want to see these shootings end. We just disagree on how to make that happen.

Other countries also have deranged people getting antagonized and worked up in echo chambers, but there are a lot of differences in all those places in cultural, ethnic, political, mental health use, law enforcement, and etc. I pointed out a month or so ago that if you remove the shootings from a handful of large cities in the US, our gun violence rates drop to some of the lowest in the world. The vast majority of shootings take place in overcrowded cities with overwhelmed mental health services, judicial systems unable or unwilling to remove and keep criminals off the streets, and high levels of gang/drug activity. Joe Average living In the rest of the country rarely if ever commits such gun violence, yet he's who you want to disarm.

How can you look at Chicago and then think more restrictive laws are the answer? That's like the old saying about doing the same thing but thinking you'll get a different result. It doesn't work in Chicago or Detroit or Los Angeles or Philly or DC or anywhere else in this country. Criminals gonna criminal. They'll get them from Mississippi or Indiana or wherever, and if you close off those sources, Mexico will gladly take up the slack.

Do you want to actually eliminate most of the gun violence, or do you want to keep pushing the same old useless and ineffective ideas? If you genuinely want to reduce it, address the underlying causes. Better mental health screening and treatment. Enforce the current gun laws instead of passing more (that won'tbe enforced either) just so politicians can hold a press conference and pat themselves on the back for "taking a stand" or "doing something." In other words, get the nuts and criminals off the streets. Do something that actually WORKS instead of what just sounds good.

To be clear I haven't advocated for banning guns anywhere on here. I am a gun owner myself. I think there should be some restrictions for heavy ammunition that no civilian needs to be owning, but I don't see how the government could ever forcible take guns from anyone nor should they try.

What should be done is a top to bottom rework of how background checks work. When I bought my gun I was shocked by how ridiculously easy it was. Bought it online, picked it up at a shop, interacted with one person IRL, and that was it. If I had just found out my wife was cheating on me and I wanted to kill her it would have been that easy. No cool down period. No way to make sure I knew how to operate it. How to properly store it. Nothing.

That kid in Chicago should have never been able to buy a gun legally. Would he still have gotten his hands on one illegally if his mind was set on doing something horrible? Maybe. But one more roadblock in the way is going to stop some portion of these assholes and won't effect law abiding citizens of sound mind.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

To be clear I haven't advocated for banning guns anywhere on here. I am a gun owner myself. I think there should be some restrictions for heavy ammunition that no civilian needs to be owning, but I don't see how the government could ever forcible take guns from anyone nor should they try.

What should be done is a top to bottom rework of how background checks work. When I bought my gun I was shocked by how ridiculously easy it was. Bought it online, picked it up at a shop, interacted with one person IRL, and that was it. If I had just found out my wife was cheating on me and I wanted to kill her it would have been that easy. No cool down period. No way to make sure I knew how to operate it. How to properly store it. Nothing.

That kid in Chicago should have never been able to guy a gun legally. Would he still have gotten his hands on one illegally if his mind was set on doing something horrible? Maybe. But one more roadblock in the way is going to stop some portion of these assholes and won't effect law abiding citizens of sound mind.

I am also a gun owner and agree with your points here however, just to pick your brain……let’s look at Bobby Crimo. I know he posted some graphic crap online, he was an aspiring rapper, was a loner, was in his early 20’s, had apparently worked at Panera a couple of years ago but I don’t believe he had any serious run ins with the law or bouts of documented mental illness. From what I have read so far, even those close to him didn’t think he was capable of what he did nor did anyone suspect it. We may hear more on that in the future. What would be the methodology in a more advanced background checking system to weed out someone like him? He was somewhat under the radar (as was the Uvalde shooter although in that situation, plenty of people came forward after the fact but no one brought that to anyone‘s attention before it was too late. It seems like many of these shooters are “under the radar” of law enforcement and they don’t seek out mental illness support so they don’t leave much of a footprint for a background check to find. I’ll look forward to hearing what you or anyone else thinks.

 

[Bishop2b5]

To be clear I haven't advocated for banning guns anywhere on here. I am a gun owner myself. I think there should be some restrictions for heavy ammunition that no civilian needs to be owning, but I don't see how the government could ever forcible take guns from anyone nor should they try.

What should be done is a top to bottom rework of how background checks work. When I bought my gun I was shocked by how ridiculously easy it was. Bought it online, picked it up at a shop, interacted with one person IRL, and that was it. If I had just found out my wife was cheating on me and I wanted to kill her it would have been that easy. No cool down period. No way to make sure I knew how to operate it. How to properly store it. Nothing.

That kid in Chicago should have never been able to buy a gun legally. Would he still have gotten his hands on one illegally if his mind was set on doing something horrible? Maybe. But one more roadblock in the way is going to stop some portion of these assholes and won't effect law abiding citizens of sound mind.

I'm not at all opposed to roadblocks that keep guns out of the hands of nuts and criminals. My problem is that many of the laws we have now to do that simply don't work, or at least aren't enforced in a way that works, and most of the new proposed laws are just as ineffective. Most are nothing more than gun grabs from law abiding citizens (who aren't the problem) or nothing more than another useless act that's only purpose is for political grandstanding. I want effective laws that actually work at keeping the nuts and criminals disarmed without disarming the innocent citizens who just want to protect themselves.

 

[Blazers46]

You're asking for what would amount to a cultural revolution. While I think that would have a positive effect, it's just not a realistic solution to this problem. Pandora's box has been opened.

Yikes. How do you think we got here in the first place? A cultural revolution. We were a community of people once but chose “progress”. Now we need to go the other way and can’t? You say I chose my guns over mass shootings but you are essentially chosing defeat or an unwillingness to be a community of peoples again. Chosing comfort over action. We are chosing our addiction to comfort over community. We are chosing comfort and deflecting responsibility to government. Bigger government = more corruption and less power to the people.

 

[GATTACA!]

Yikes. How do you think we got here in the first place? A cultural revolution. We were a community of people once but chose “progress”. Now we need to go the other way and can’t? You say I chose my guns over mass shootings but you are essentially chosing defeat or an unwillingness to be a community of peoples again. Chosing comfort over action. We are chosing our addiction to comfort over community. We are chosing comfort and deflecting responsibility to government. Bigger government = more corruption and less power to the people.

No I think choosing defeat would be to watch another school full of children or a parade get slaughtered and still decide that doing nothing is the right thing to do.

 

[Blazers46]

No I think choosing defeat would be to watch another school full of children or a parade get slaughtered and still decide that doing nothing is the right thing to do.

Who is implying we do nothing?

What will you do besides beg government to do something?

 

[GATTACA!]

Who is implying we do nothing?

What will you do besides beg government to do something?

You treating any solution involving actually doing something about firearms as a non starter isn’t even an implication. It’s clear.

 

[Irish#1]

That’s very commendable of you. If I was ever in a station in life where it was possible for me to do something similar I’d heavily consider it. Unfortunately though that’s a micro solution for a macro problem and unless tens of thousands are inspired to do something similar we’re not going to see an major shift in the direction we need to go.

If it stops one kid from growing up into a killer it's worth it.

 

[Irish#1]

I am also a gun owner and agree with your points here however, just to pick your brain……let’s look at Bobby Crimo. I know he posted some graphic crap online, he was an aspiring rapper, was a loner, was in his early 20’s, had apparently worked at Panera a couple of years ago but I don’t believe he had any serious run ins with the law or bouts of documented mental illness. From what I have read so far, even those close to him didn’t think he was capable of what he did nor did anyone suspect it. We may hear more on that in the future. What would be the methodology in a more advanced background checking system to weed out someone like him? He was somewhat under the radar (as was the Uvalde shooter although in that situation, plenty of people came forward after the fact but no one brought that to anyone‘s attention before it was too late. It seems like many of these shooters are “under the radar” of law enforcement and they don’t seek out mental illness support so they don’t leave much of a footprint for a background check to find. I’ll look forward to hearing what you or anyone else thinks.

The only way to get them on the radar is to have their internet activities automatically reported to the FBI and local law enforcement while their googling and we all know that will never happen for the obvious reasons.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

So then is your solution more government? Are we just giving up on people and depending on government now?

Never said either of those.

Efficient and better. Much of the process and structure needs tearing down and rebuilt, granted, which is easier said than done, but we've been there before. It's a vast nation in terms of land space and amount of people.

As for people, I still have some glimmer of hope. Certainly more than a lot of people in this thread and on this board. America ranks around 20th in the world in terms of Quality of Life. That's pretty sad. America used to write laws and strike down laws for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not poor people and education. You could afford to work hard and live life spending time with your family and neighbors. We took care of each other. Today we're far better at digesting garbage on Facebook and spewing bile about everything and everyone.

The Highland Park shooter's father sponsored his application for a gun permit. This was after the family had called police previously when the guy had threatened to kill everyone. Police showed up, the guy's knives were taken away. State couldn't prove he was dangerous so they sold him the weapons he used to kill seven people on Monday.

So this dude has a father and he seemed to be supporting him, but unfortunately is also kind of a goof himself as we're beginning to find out.

 

[Irish#1]

To be clear I haven't advocated for banning guns anywhere on here. I am a gun owner myself. I think there should be some restrictions for heavy ammunition that no civilian needs to be owning, but I don't see how the government could ever forcible take guns from anyone nor should they try.

What should be done is a top to bottom rework of how background checks work. When I bought my gun I was shocked by how ridiculously easy it was. Bought it online, picked it up at a shop, interacted with one person IRL, and that was it. If I had just found out my wife was cheating on me and I wanted to kill her it would have been that easy. No cool down period. No way to make sure I knew how to operate it. How to properly store it. Nothing.

That kid in Chicago should have never been able to buy a gun legally. Would he still have gotten his hands on one illegally if his mind was set on doing something horrible? Maybe. But one more roadblock in the way is going to stop some portion of these assholes and won't effect law abiding citizens of sound mind.

I don't own a gun, but have always supported the 2nd amendment. Given it was written during a different time when there wasn't law enforcement or the proper military to protect everyone it made sense. Today we have the worlds best military and police forces equipped to handle most things. Want to own a hand gun, rifle or shotgun? Sure go ahead. I see no need for an AR15 type gun or anything with a large magazine capacity.

 

[drayer54]

It isn’t hard to find videos of absolute mayhem and lawlessness in this country last weekend. Riots and large groups of people completely out of control. We have no regard for the law anymore and we have a political movement against locking people up and policing. Until we get serious on crime and policing- this shit will continue.

As long as we see mayhem undeterred by law enforcement and society- I don’t care to reduce my ability to defend myself. If I lived in a shitty neighborhood- I’d be carrying constantly these days.

Not sure how we stop a madman publicly plotting a rooftop disaster. I’m a 2A supporter, but have zero issue blocking and even locking up people who post the kind of shit this guy did.

 

[Blazers46]

You treating any solution involving actually doing something about firearms as a non starter isn’t even an implication. It’s clear.

I think you are treating government policy as something we can just turn on and off depending if we peasants are good or bad. When you give government power they rarely give it back.

 

[irishff1014]

I know this wasn't t one place but were is the outrage about this. And 36 robberies.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

The only way to get them on the radar is to have their internet activities automatically reported to the FBI and local law enforcement while their googling and we all know that will never happen for the obvious reasons.

Yep……also read that Crimo passed the firearms background checks 4 times in Illinois. He had a couple run-ins with the law but nothing resulted in anything from a criminal record standpoint other than an underage tobacco citation. It appears his mom is/was a bit of a loon so as usual, these human problems most likely begin in the home.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The only way to get them on the radar is to have their internet activities automatically reported to the FBI and local law enforcement while their googling and we all know that will never happen for the obvious reasons.

uh its already happening. Internet profiling is literally an art form right now. Its so well known what kind of a person a person is based on their internet and social media behaviors. You can literally psychologically profile a person and then target them with micro ads and recommendations. THe FBI is well versed in identifiying domestic terrorist pages and radicalization sites. If you dont think the government already has access to the same data that Facebook, Amazon, and Google or arnt on the dark web monitoring activties...do you are fooling yourself. The real issue is the legal justification of acting on said meta data. Its not that we dont have the data. Its absolutely available and up for sale. Like... the minority report and precogs... what are the moral implications of pre-crime deterence?

 

[irishff1014]

I saw lax's post about how he had been posting on you tube and other places about his intentions. Does other places not have the red flag law?

Maryland has one. I know for fact that it has been used. I know that someone got a divorce and his wife told the cops she thought he would be a danger to himself and others. They went and got a search warrant and took every gun he had. And the problem was she was completely lying.

Maryland’s Red Flag Law And Your Rights

On October 1, 2018, Maryland’s extreme risk protective order law took effect. The “red flag” law, as it has been called, was enacted to establish a process by which a petitioner may seek a court

www.sbwlaw.com

 

[irishff1014]

uh its already happening. Internet profiling is literally an art form right now. Its so well known what kind of a person a person is based on their internet and social media behaviors. You can literally psychologically profile a person and then target them with micro ads and recommendations. THe FBI is well versed in identifiying domestic terrorist pages and radicalization sites. If you dont think the government already has access to the same data that Facebook, Amazon, and Google or arnt on the dark web monitoring activties...do you are fooling yourself. The real issue is the legal justification of acting on said meta data. Its not that we dont have the data. Its absolutely available and up for sale.

And if it is on social media you know they see it. You make a post on facebook saying Zuckerburg is a piece of crap or a spy and within 10 minutes your post has been taken down. So don't tell me they don't see these other threats.