All Things SkunkBear

[NDShark]

That's a Chip Kelly trade.

Maybe Harbaugh enjoyed sleeping on this kid's carpet more

 

[ulukinatme]

Nothing new here, fuck Michigan.

 

[TomHaverford]

Traded #30 for #65.. Alright then.

Lol I don't think these guys do their recruiting based on internet recruiting websites rankings. Just going to take a wild guess here and say they do their own scouting and evaluations.

 

[vmgsf]

I posted earlier in thread asking whether Harbass was being honest with these recruits. I was thinking if he is lying to them Harbass could get very negative public feedback that would damage Michigan's image and serve as the basis for rival coaches neg recruiting about his chickenshit tactics. Read the Chicago Tribune story. Harbass is juggling nitroglycerin. Harbass might get away with it or he might blow himself up. Harbass treatment of Swenson may have been a serious mistake where he just went TOO FAR with this crap.

 

[dublinirish]

I posted earlier in thread asking whether Harbass was being honest with these recruits. I was thinking if he is lying to them Harbass could get very negative public feedback that would damage Michigan's image and serve as the basis for rival coaches neg recruiting about his chickenshit tactics. Read the Chicago Tribune story. Harbass is juggling nitroglycerin. Harbass might get away with it or he might blow himself up. Harbass treatment of Swenson may have been a serious mistake where he just went TOO FAR with this crap.

he's recruited this way his WHOLE CFB career. Did the same thing every single season @ Stanford. I am always surprized people are reacting so much to this story.

 

[phork]

I posted earlier in thread asking whether Harbass was being honest with these recruits. I was thinking if he is lying to them Harbass could get very negative public feedback that would damage Michigan's image and serve as the basis for rival coaches neg recruiting about his chickenshit tactics. Read the Chicago Tribune story. Harbass is juggling nitroglycerin. Harbass might get away with it or he might blow himself up. Harbass treatment of Swenson may have been a serious mistake where he just went TOO FAR with this crap.

This is laughable at best. Welcome to big boy college football. Where the only thing that matters is winning and getting kids to the NFL. Ya we'll hold a spot for you, until something better comes along.

Kids and parents have to start getting smarter about these things. Then again, they want to win and get to the NFL soooo.... The beat goes on.

If anybody actually thinks this affects recruiting by these men at these schools they are fooling themselves.

 

[dublinirish]

I think in this day and age too when coaching changes happen its safe to say no recruit should ever think their spot is safe and coach's should not be expected to honour commitments made by their predecessors

 

[Legacy]

I think in this day and age too when coaching changes happen its safe to say no recruit should ever think their spot is safe and coach's should not be expected to honour commitments made by their predecessors

As far as Michigan goes, per 247's Timelines for each recruit's offer, only four players who committed were from Hoke's offers - (#1) Swenson (scholie withdrawn), (#2) Harding (decommit), (#3) Peters (signed LOI, enrolled early), (#4) Reese (decommit).

All other offers for Michigan including the other six decommits (see list above) were offered by and committed to Harbaugh, many after his camps during the summer. All are three star recruits except for Swenson.

 

[vmgsf]

Phork this is not the SEC. The Trib is a very infuential paper that spread this story. This might not play well in the Midwest. We will see.

 

[TomHaverford]

Phork this is not the SEC. The Trib is a very infuential paper that spread this story. This might not play well in the Midwest. We will see.

highly doubt it has any affect on Harbaugh's recruiting. Saban and Les Miles have done junk like this for years. Has it affected either of their schools recruiting?

The only thing that will affect his recruiting is if he's not successful on the field. If he starts winning 10-11 games every year and competing for the B1G CCG and a playoff spot, his recruiting will only get better.

Players want to win ball games in college and go to the NFL. As long as Harbaugh wins games he'll bring in top classes.

 

[phork]

Phork this is not the SEC. The Trib is a very infuential paper that spread this story. This might not play well in the Midwest. We will see.

Kids want to win and play in the NFL. Saban, Meyer, Miles & Harbaugh can get them there. Start filling up youur class with 3 stars and create a false sense of "Oh snap I better committ before it fills up" and God help you if the kid who wants to committ is better than you, because then you gone.

 

[dublinirish]

Kids want to win and play in the NFL. Saban, Meyer, Miles & Harbaugh can get them there. Start filling up youur class with 3 stars and create a false sense of "Oh snap I better committ before it fills up" and God help you if the kid who wants to committ is better than you, because then you gone.

again he had no problem winning games at stanford with this approach.

 

[phork]

F the Freep | mgoblog

LOL at the defensive front by the MGoblogites.

Paraphrasing here but one of my favorites is "if it isn't illegal I am ok with it".

 

[Legacy]

highly doubt it has any affect on Harbaugh's recruiting. Saban and Les Miles have done junk like this for years. Has it affected either of their schools recruiting?

The only thing that will affect his recruiting is if he's not successful on the field. If he starts winning 10-11 games every year and competing for the B1G CCG and a playoff spot, his recruiting will only get better.

Players want to win ball games in college and go to the NFL. As long as Harbaugh wins games he'll bring in top classes.

The only reason this is done by Harbaugh, Saban, Miles, etc is to obtain a competitive advantage.

But you are being unfair to Saban and Miles. Saban has had only three decommitments this year - two four stars who changed their minds to look around (Kareem and Shyheim Carter) and a punter. Miles has had four decommits - two recommitted after they did not fire him and two - Franks, a 4* QB who has ended up at Florida. and Chattman (3*).

Alabama's three decommits are higher than usual this year (usually one) as are LSU's. You have referred to Miles pulling a scholarship just before the kid was going to enroll. That happened with Elliott Porter in 2010 and to no one since.

Nothing like Harbaugh's recruiting behavior of accepting verbal commits then dumping them has happened with Saban, Miles, Meyer or anyone else that I can think of. He is now way over his total scholarship limit which will impact current players - few fifth years, transfers as scholarships are not renewed, medicals, grayshirt offers, etc. Those who are signing this year should be accepting the fact that nothing more than two years is guaranteed, which is similar to some SEC schools.

The only reason we are seeing these decommits vs oversigning all of those who've verbally committed is the Big Ten's cap of three over eighty-five after Signing Day.

We'll see how many three stars commit after his summer camps this year.

Michigan and Big Ten fans as well as recruits will just have to live with it and rationalize it for the next six years.

 

[vmgsf]

Of course I know this slimy stuff goes on. But Swenson laid it all out what happened. The degree of the bad publicity that Harbass gets from this is important. If this story gets a lot of publicity it will hurt Harbass. If it does not, Harbass will get away with it.

 

[dublinirish]

Of course I know this slimy stuff goes on. But Swenson laid it all out what happened. The degree of the bad publicity that Harbass gets from this is important. If this story gets a lot of publicity it will hurt Harbass. If it does not, Harbass will get away with it.

It will all be forgotten in a week when NSD rolls around.

 

[TomHaverford]

The only reason this is done by Harbaugh, Saban, Miles, etc is to obtain a competitive advantage.

But you are being unfair to Saban and Miles. Saban has had only three decommitments this year - two four stars who changed their minds to look around (Kareem and Shyheim Carter) and a punter. Miles has had four decommits - two recommitted after they did not fire him and two - Franks, a 4* QB who has ended up at Florida. and Chattman (3*).

Alabama's three decommits are higher than usual this year (usually one) as are LSU's. You have referred to Miles pulling a scholarship just before the kid was going to enroll. That happened with Elliott Porter in 2010 and to no one since.

Nothing like Harbaugh's recruiting behavior of accepting verbal commits then dumping them has happened with Saban, Miles, Meyer or anyone else that I can think of. He is now way over his total scholarship limit which will impact current players - few fifth years, transfers as scholarships are not renewed, medicals, grayshirt offers, etc. Those who are signing this year should be accepting the fact that nothing more than two years is guaranteed, which is similar to some SEC schools.

The only reason we are seeing these decommits vs oversigning all of those who've verbally committed is the Big Ten's cap of three over eighty-five after Signing Day.

We'll see how many three stars commit after his summer camps this year.

Michigan and Big Ten fans as well as recruits will just have to live with it and rationalize it for the next six years.

Lol not sure if srs.

Saban pretty much invented processing players.

Les Miles pulled the scholarship of a 3* kid that had early enrolled and was taking classes at LSU to make room for a 5* on NSD. Kid was already living in a dorm at LSU and going to classes and Miles told him he no longer had a scholarship.

Meyer did the same thing to Jamal Dean, who had to lose a year after transferring to Auburn because he was an early enrollee at Ohio State.

 

[Legacy]

Lol not sure if srs.

Saban pretty much invented processing players.

Les Miles pulled the scholarship of a 3* kid that had early enrolled and was taking classes at LSU to make room for a 5* on NSD. Kid was already living in a dorm at LSU and going to classes and Miles told him he no longer had a scholarship.

Meyer did the same thing to Jamal Dean, who had to lose a year after transferring to Auburn because he was an early enrollee at Ohio State.

I can't argue with your preconceptions and single examples, especially if you do not pay attention to what was written. Maybe Harbaugh will be the Saban of the North. Or maybe he will get a SEC job in the future where he has more leeway than the Big Ten allows.

Miles/LSU pulled Elliott Porter's scholarship in 2010. We have posted on Jamel Dean here before in the Oversigning/Ohio State topic with his coach's comments, which were very similar to Swenson's coach.

I'm pointing out you are providing individual examples from the past, but, for now, I'll accept that you feel Harbaugh is just as bad as Saban, Miles, Meyer, etc. where a student-athlete's welfare is concerned, although all are technically within the recruiting rules.

 

[BobbyMac]

Apparently Coach Hairball is going after his record for longest "Offer till Pull" set this past week with Erik Swenson.

He has now offered Concord (CA) De La Salle freshman TE Isaiah Foskey meaning he could actually go 3 full years between the time the carrot is dangled till when the rug is pulled from under him and his family's feet.

He makes me physically sick. I'd be more proud of being a Kentucky Basketball fan than a Michigan football fan.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Michigan?src=hash">#Michigan</a> is offer No. 1 for Concord (Calif) De La Salle '19 TE Isaiah Foskey, got called up to varsity for playoffs and has huge upside</p>— Greg Biggins (@GregBiggins) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregBiggins/status/689884184991563777">January 20, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[woolybug25]

Apparently Coach Hairball is going after his record for longest "Offer till Pull" set this past week with Erik Swenson.

He has now offered Concord (CA) De La Salle freshman TE Isaiah Foskey meaning he could actually go 3 full years between the time the carrot is dangled till when the rug is pulled from under him and his family's feet.

He makes me physically sick. I'd be more proud of being a Kentucky Basketball fan than a Michigan football fan.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Michigan?src=hash">#Michigan</a> is offer No. 1 for Concord (Calif) De La Salle '19 TE Isaiah Foskey, got called up to varsity for playoffs and has huge upside</p>— Greg Biggins (@GregBiggins) <a href="https://twitter.com/GregBiggins/status/689884184991563777">January 20, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This kid would be a god to me if he committed to SlimJim tomorrow, took all his visits, then flipped to flipped to ND on signing day after fours years of holding a spot. Leaving SlimJim with a sweet taste of karma in his mouth 4 years from now.

 

[Legacy]

I think Hoke took this kids (Swenson) commitment when he was in the 9th grade. That's something I also have a problem with. Not quite as bad as Lane Kiffen taking the commitment of a 7th grade QB but it's in the same ball-park. Beyond ridiculous.

We're all in agreement about these kind of offers.

 

[TomHaverford]

We're all in agreement about these kind of offers.

I don't mind a "hey kid, you got a verbal offer!" type deal as long as the kid is in high school, but to actually take said kids commitment is another thing. That is just flat out ridiculous.

Personally I hate verbal commitments of any kid. Way too many kids and coaches go back on them. There should be an early singing day in like Sept or October, and then the regular ass signing day on Feb. 3rd. The SEC is vehemently opposed to this and struck it down last time it was up for discussion. They were suppose to vote on implementing an additional signing day and having it be early, but the SEC go the vote delayed somehow. They were also opposed to guarantee scholarships for 4 years, so.

I think it'll eventually happen, and coaches will be more careful with offers and who they accept commitments from, and more kids will stick to their words and not commit early unless they intend to sign early. Or at least that's the hope.

 

[woolybug25]

I don't mind a "hey kid, you got a verbal offer!" type deal as long as the kid is in high school, but to actually take said kids commitment is another thing. That is just flat out ridiculous.

Personally I hate verbal commitments of any kid. Way too many kids and coaches go back on them. There should be an early singing day in like Sept or October, and then the regular ass signing day on Feb. 3rd. The SEC is vehemently opposed to this and struck it down last time it was up for discussion. They were suppose to vote on implementing an additional signing day and having it be early, but the SEC go the vote delayed somehow. They were also opposed to guarantee scholarships for 4 years, so.

I think it'll eventually happen, and coaches will be more careful with offers and who they accept commitments from, and more kids will stick to their words and not commit early unless they intend to sign early. Or at least that's the hope.

So we should expect your disappointment when this 9th grader commits?

 

[Legacy]

I don't mind a "hey kid, you got a verbal offer!" type deal as long as the kid is in high school, but to actually take said kids commitment is another thing. That is just flat out ridiculous.

Personally I hate verbal commitments of any kid. Way too many kids and coaches go back on them. There should be an early singing day in like Sept or October, and then the regular ass signing day on Feb. 3rd. The SEC is vehemently opposed to this and struck it down last time it was up for discussion. They were suppose to vote on implementing an additional signing day and having it be early, but the SEC go the vote delayed somehow. They were also opposed to guarantee scholarships for 4 years, so.

I think it'll eventually happen, and coaches will be more careful with offers and who they accept commitments from, and more kids will stick to their words and not commit early unless they intend to sign early. Or at least that's the hope.

You blame the SEC for all the recruiting problems, Tom. Why not "The SEC has come to the Big 10"? instead of, "I'm not a fan, but..."

Before the start of the season, Michigan had 23 verbals, and now has 22 verbals after nine "decommitments". How many more high schoolers will learn their commitment to Michigan is one-sided?

Why not you don't accept a high schooler's verbal unless you intend to honor it?

 

[VictorsValiant]

Legacy,

Neither program is perfect. There's going to be a bit of rationalization from both fan bases as long as we want to put out a winner, and as long as SEC teams do what they do. Harbaugh was hired to put out a winner. Kelly was hired to do the same thing. Both have succeeded, but neither has been perfect. For example, Harbaugh has been very good with academics, whereas it may not always be the case with Kelly.

In this case, we don't have all the facts and we probably never will because Harbaugh can't comment on it. We don't know, for example, if the offers were conditional. That makes a difference to me. We also don't know how attrition on the current roster will shake out. As far as I'm aware, everyone who has left has graduated. That makes a difference to me. As a fan base, I think there is near universal agreement that if Harbaugh cuts kids after they are enrolled when they don't have a degree, that would be crossing the line. So far at least, that hasn't happened. You shouldn't assume that it will.

 

[Johannes]

Legacy,

Neither program is perfect. There's going to be a bit of rationalization from both fan bases as long as we want to put out a winner, and as long as SEC teams do what they do. Harbaugh was hired to put out a winner. Kelly was hired to do the same thing. Both have succeeded, but neither has been perfect. For example, Harbaugh has been very good with academics, whereas it may not always be the case with Kelly.

In this case, we don't have all the facts and we probably never will because Harbaugh can't comment on it. We don't know, for example, if the offers were conditional. That makes a difference to me. We also don't know how attrition on the current roster will shake out. As far as I'm aware, everyone who has left has graduated. That makes a difference to me. As a fan base, I think there is near universal agreement that if Harbaugh cuts kids after they are enrolled when they don't have a degree, that would be crossing the line. So far at least, that hasn't happened. You shouldn't assume that it will.

Explain this statement. Are you criticizing Kelly for enforcing academic standards on his players and suspending them when those standards are not met? Kelly has been outspoken about the challenge of balancing the academic rigors of Notre Dame and the athletic demands of D1 football. He has pushed for the school to help athletes maintain that balance. What has Harbaugh done to be considered "very good with academics?" Suspend Norfleet? Push his players into Kinesiology?

 

[VictorsValiant]

Harbaugh's players graduate, and this includes Michigan's players. He stresses academics in his talk to players. He tweets the players' GPAs. He has no choice because the new university president came from the Ivy League and wants to enforce uniform standards.

My statement you highlighted mainly refers to the suspensions, and the fact that they extended beyond ND football. ND did take steps to rectify, but it happened first.

There have been ebbs and flows on the academic side for both schools. The low point for us was the end of the Carr era and the RR era. Standards improved with Hoke and they've carried on with Harbaugh.

As for majors, I never really understood how a player coming in with significantly lower credentials can somehow pull off a difficult major while playing football. I just looked at the incoming profiles for both schools. Standards have gone up for both. If the players on both teams were just regular students, the overwhelming majority would be at the very bottom. In fairness, Kelly has admitted this.

So either the major is easy, or it's easy to pass. Both dilute the value of the degree. Kinesiology is being honest with players, and it's giving them something that's somewhat related to what they're doing on the field.

 

[Legacy]

VV,

- Neither program is perfect. We're no different.
- Recruiting and its impacts on current roster players is in pursuit of putting the best team on the field
- a coach runs a team like a business
- players graduate or move on for better opportunities, it's their choice
- we're not violating any regulations
- we don't know all the facts

I've heard it before from Nick Saban and Alabama fans.

(I can get you Saban's defense of oversigning with comments, if you wish.) Overrecuiting just moves the deadline up.

Please explain how you are different, because I don't see it. I do see how neither Alabama, ND and Stanford, for instance, do not accept commitments from players who are not meeting their admission criteria, but wait until the end of fall semester to make a final judgement on acceptance. Harbaugh just defines "commitment" differently from his side, representing Michigan's new definition. (You can see our "Decommitment Tracker" Original Post (updated) if you care to.)

You are mudding the waters when you start with comparisons to other programs. Accepting thirty one verbal commitments hasn't happened at Michigan before Harbaugh. Prior to him, Michigan operated like almost all other programs.

Let's narrow this down and give you the opportunity to address Harbaugh's recruiting at specific positions with this class - WR, DT and CB.

 

[VictorsValiant]

Legacy,

You don't know for sure that other programs don't issue conditional offers. And you don't know how many of Harbaugh's offers were conditional offers. If your premise is that conditional offers are unethical, then I can't really argue with you, since there's a lot of smoke of Harbaugh doing that. My own view is that conditional offers are perfectly acceptable if the conditions are communicated to the recruit in an open, honest, and easy to understand manner.

Don't think this necessarily hurts recruits. They can simply decide not to commit, or they can commit knowing the risks. The fact that a lot of commits may have done so this year tells you something. I think it has to do with the perceived advantage associated with saying you're a Michigan commit, and that Harbaugh wanted you. Even if you know you might get cut, the fact that you committed may impress other schools, leading to better options.

A lot depends on luck. No one expected Kareem Walker to de-commit from OSU and commit to Michigan. This was bad news for Enis. On the other hand, Sean Mckeon may have been cut if Nauta committed, but now he's on board.

I know where you're going with WR / CB / DT. You're going to say that Richardson and Scott got cut to make room for Long, that Weaver is almost certainly going to get cut to make room for Rashan Gary and Conner Murphy, and that Nate Johnson is about to be cut to make room for Mcdoom and possibly Donald Stewart. Again, it all depends on whether you accept the premise of conditional offers.

 

[Legacy]

VV,

I see where you are coming from - "conditional offers", "risks" with verbal commitment", producing on the field, "cuts". I've heard it before.

If you get a scholarship offer to play football, you damn well better produce or someone else is going to take your place. Is that mean? Maybe, but I don't see you bitching about kids on academic scholarships that lose theirs because they don't keep their grades up. Produce and contribute, you'll be fine. Screw around and don't live up to your end of the bargain, tough, deal with it.

attributed to RollBamaRoll
Quoted in "A Final Word On Oversigning And Alabama" mgoblog, 2008

They know. They don't care. This is the fundamental disagreement. These Alabama bloggers universally declare that "THERE IS NO PROBLEM!" but if there is a problem, then well that's just life isn't it?

from same

The idea that commitments are never official until National Signing Day is absolutely true, and perhaps even moreso with Harbaugh at Michigan. It is not enough just to be dedicated to a cause, but you have to grow throughout the process and be willing to work the entire way.

from Final Thoughts on the Erik Swenson Situation

Even if you do, Michigan will cut you for a more talented player. Deal with it. That's the Meat Market.

We just disagree.