All Things SCOTUS

NorthDakota

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Similar to lawyers that need the legal standard of intent explained to them?

Anyways, are you saying leftists aren't upset about that ruling?
I dont follow.....

Regardless, I don't know any leftists. I have no idea if they are upset. They are (or should be) upset by an absurdly high percentage of court rulings at any level.
 

jprue24

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I dont follow.....
Fair enough, my memory was a bit off. "Willfully" (which describes someone's intent) was the standard you didn't know about or were you intentionally ignoring it to prove a point or something?

From the Trump Presidency thread in January.

2. Intent is not EVERYTHING, as that is not the legal standard. The standard is gross negligence. Leaving classified documents all over the place sounds pretty grossly negligent to me.

2. There is more than one legal standard that applies, "Willful" is a legal standard that gets attached to the level of negligence and that particular legal standard goes a very long way to determining the punishment.

From the DOJ - "An act is done 'willfully' if done voluntarily and intentionally and with the specific intent to do something the law forbids."


Reads like intent to me.


Tell me more about those spending 10 years in jail (if any time in jail) for unintentionally mishandling classified information (hint: there aren't any).

Intent is literally the reason the FBI gave for not recommending charges for Hillary Clinton. Here is the FBI saying exactly that.

Just to put a bow on this, here is what US code says.

"Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both." (emphisis mine)

 

jprue24

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willful and intentional are two different things.
For a criminal case!? I find that hard to believe when the DOJ and US Code use them in tandem when discussing the mishandling of classified docs. When I look up "willful", intentional is in every definition and when I look up "intentional" willful is in every definition's synonyms.

I haven't passed any bar though, and while there is evidence that I may be at a literacy level high enough to understand what the the DOJ and US Law are saying, but I may not be.

Cornell's law school site uses "intentional" as the first adjective to describe the term "willful" and then describes further how it applies to criminal law.

"The term willful refers to acts which are intentional, conscious, voluntary, and designed to achieve a particular result. The meaning of the term “willful” depends on the context in which it is used. For example:
  • In the context of criminal law, cases such as this one from Nevada, explain that “the word ‘willful’ when used in criminal statutes with respect to proscribed conduct relates to an act or omission which is done intentionally, deliberately or designedly, as distinguished from an act or omission done accidentally, inadvertently, or innocently.”


What am I missing?
 

NorthDakota

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Fair enough, my memory was a bit off. "Willfully" (which describes someone's intent) was the standard you didn't know about or were you intentionally ignoring it to prove a point or something?

From the Trump Presidency thread in January.
"(e) whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blue print, plan, map, model, note, or information, relating to the national defence, through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be list, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by imprisonment for not more than two years, or both." - 18 U.S.C. Section 793(e).
I said Biden could have been charged for being in possession of documents as well, because there is no requirement for him to have intentionally done so. Gross negligence is sufficient. Whether DOJ or whomever decides to charge may (rightly or wrongly) depend on whether the DOJ think he did so on purpose....but thats not the standard prescribed by the statute as far as I can tell.

Edit: I presume we were talking passed (past?) one another at that time.
 
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NorthDakota

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For a criminal case!? I find that hard to believe when the DOJ and US Code use them in tandem when discussing the mishandling of classified docs. When I look up "willful", intentional is in every definition and when I look up "intentional" willful is in every definition's synonyms.

I haven't passed any bar though, and while there is evidence that I may be at a literacy level high enough to understand what the the DOJ and US Law are saying, but I may not be.

Cornell's law school site uses "intentional" as the first adjective to describe the term "willful" and then describes further how it applies to criminal law.

"The term willful refers to acts which are intentional, conscious, voluntary, and designed to achieve a particular result. The meaning of the term “willful” depends on the context in which it is used. For example:
  • In the context of criminal law, cases such as this one from Nevada, explain that “the word ‘willful’ when used in criminal statutes with respect to proscribed conduct relates to an act or omission which is done intentionally, deliberately or designedly, as distinguished from an act or omission done accidentally, inadvertently, or innocently.”


What am I missing?
Stephen Brogan wrote a nice article on the subject for the Notre Dame Law Review back in the day.

Analysis of the Term Willful in Federal Criminal Statutes
 

jprue24

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Stephen Brogan wrote a nice article on the subject for the Notre Dame Law Review back in the day.

Analysis of the Term Willful in Federal Criminal Statutes
Ah, now I see why I am confused. You are introducing a primarily civil law definition into a criminal case (potential case back in Jan.)

From Brogan's conclusion,

"It is probably safe to assert that the type of offense charged still tends to
dictate how the court will define the term "willful." If the statute deals with a
crime involving turpitude then "willful" will generally be defined to mean with
a "bad purpose" or "evil motive."
A regulatory offense, despite a strong early
tradition to the contrary, will probably yield a definition that is no more than
an intentional or voluntary standard, and may be broad enough to include
negligent conduct."

He also clarified multiple times where that the broad definition is being used,

"The more regulatory or administrative the statute appears the more likely a court will resort to a less
strict standard. This is in contrast to the tendency to impose a stricter requirement
when a statute proscribes a more traditional common law offense."

As I have shown more than once, the statute is crystal clear about this. Thanks for the info though, interesting to read that, like many things on the civil side, willful developed a legal definition that looks at the act more broadly. I kinda see why it happened in some of the cases referenced (falsifying driver records, so they can drive more is fucking dangerous), but looking at it from the outside, it feels wrong to use the broad definition in a criminal case.

I have, and will continue to state that when it comes to classified documents/material - not just defense docs like the law you quoted - the person's intent drives the severity of criminal charges. You're "not always" makes sense if you totally misrepresent Trump and Biden's cases as they stood in Jan and currently stand.

So what were you doing there? Muddying this up on purpose? Trying your best to draw some ridiculous parallels between the Trump and Biden cases?
 

Bishop2b5

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No reason for Leftists to be concered...


I don't want to assume, but do you think outlawing race as a factor in college admissions is a bad thing? Personally, I think it's great. I can't think of a single justification for it being a factor.
 

NorthDakota

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Ah, now I see why I am confused. You are introducing a primarily civil law definition into a criminal case (potential case back in Jan.)

From Brogan's conclusion,

"It is probably safe to assert that the type of offense charged still tends to
dictate how the court will define the term "willful." If the statute deals with a
crime involving turpitude then "willful" will generally be defined to mean with
a "bad purpose" or "evil motive."
A regulatory offense, despite a strong early
tradition to the contrary, will probably yield a definition that is no more than
an intentional or voluntary standard, and may be broad enough to include
negligent conduct."

He also clarified multiple times where that the broad definition is being used,

"The more regulatory or administrative the statute appears the more likely a court will resort to a less
strict standard. This is in contrast to the tendency to impose a stricter requirement
when a statute proscribes a more traditional common law offense."

As I have shown more than once, the statute is crystal clear about this. Thanks for the info though, interesting to read that, like many things on the civil side, willful developed a legal definition that looks at the act more broadly. I kinda see why it happened in some of the cases referenced (falsifying driver records, so they can drive more is fucking dangerous), but looking at it from the outside, it feels wrong to use the broad definition in a criminal case.

I have, and will continue to state that when it comes to classified documents/material - not just defense docs like the law you quoted - the person's intent drives the severity of criminal charges. You're "not always" makes sense if you totally misrepresent Trump and Biden's cases as they stood in Jan and currently stand.

So what were you doing there? Muddying this up on purpose? Trying your best to draw some ridiculous parallels between the Trump and Biden cases?
Your own bolded statement says willful's meaning changes based on the crime.

I'm not muddying anything. Gross negligence is the standard for the statute I cited.
 

NorthDakota

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No reason for Leftists to be concered...


Leftists are all about class aren't they? If the issue is "some ethnic groups dont have equal access to education because they are poor" then they will still be able to get into schools based on their socioeconomic status. Justice Thomas states as much in his concurrence. So poor/middle class kids who don't have the resources of their wealthy peers can still get into good schools based on that.

"Leftists" have had twenty years to prepare for this. SCOTUS said a couple decades ago that this day was coming right around now.
 

Bishop2b5

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This Erica Marsh has to be a parody account, right? Surely a Lefitst wouldn’t say this out loud as she did.


This is exactly what white liberals think of Blacks. Their whole approach is "You CAN NOT succeed without our help." And then they pat themselves on the back for being such good people. That's a HUGE part of liberal ideology: doing something that makes them feel good about themselves despite the fact that it actually makes the situation worse or harms those they claim to be helping.
 

NorthDakota

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This Erica Marsh has to be a parody account, right? Surely a Lefitst wouldn’t say this out loud as she did.


Shes not a parody. She's one of the typical resister lib accounts. Just scroll through her feed a bit and you'll be shocked lol
 

TorontoGold

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Has to be lmao
Literally a troll account. Some alt right account did a whole investigation on her. Easiest answer is she's used to inflame GOP'ers (as we can see above) to push the idea that "all libz thunk liek dis". She's doesn't do the performative "look at me! look at me!" that the Brooklyn dad types do. The bot account compared that Babbit bozo to Bin Laden, of course the comments are filled with the divorced dad patriots screaming at her.

 

Irish#1

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Somehow I started getting her tweets awhile back. Every tweet began with “Breaking”. I blocked her after a week.
 

Bishop2b5

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She's likely a BOT, but there's no conclusive evidence whether she's a troll account or not. Doesn't really matter if she is or isn't. The views expressed on her Twitter account are typical of leftists/liberals and it's the same inaccurate bs we get from them in here every day. She's either a very typical liberal or a very skilled impersonator.
 

NorthDakota

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Literally a troll account. Some alt right account did a whole investigation on her. Easiest answer is she's used to inflame GOP'ers (as we can see above) to push the idea that "all libz thunk liek dis". She's doesn't do the performative "look at me! look at me!" that the Brooklyn dad types do. The bot account compared that Babbit bozo to Bin Laden, of course the comments are filled with the divorced dad patriots screaming at her.


I stand corrected. The twitter group chat is discussing lol
 

IRISHDODGER

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She's likely a BOT, but there's no conclusive evidence whether she's a troll account or not. Doesn't really matter if she is or isn't. The views expressed on her Twitter account are typical of leftists/liberals and it's the same inaccurate bs we get from them in here every day. She's either a very typical liberal or a very skilled impersonator.
I knew that pic was fake. Too pretty to be a lefty…j/k
 

drayer54

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Everyone knew this was unconstitutional. Nancy was right. Biden even said it was unconstitutional. 3 activist liberals who are applying politics are concerning to me. I'm back to zero student loan debt.

 
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NorthDakota

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When I listened to the oral arguments I had a feeling the individual plaintiffs were in trouble with standing.

But Missouri was legit gonna get bodyslammed by the plan. Happy the Court got it right.
 

IrishLax

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Everyone knew this was unconstitutional. Nancy was right. Biden even said it was unconstitutional. 3 activist liberals who are applying politics are concerning to me. I'm back to zero student loan debt.


For real. Anyone thinking that the President *should have* that kind of unilateral power is also a fucking moron. That’s not just a slippery slope it’s a sheet of ice headed off a cliff.
 

NorthDakota

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For real. Anyone thinking that the President *should have* that kind of unilateral power is also a fucking moron. That’s not just a slippery slope it’s a sheet of ice headed off a cliff.
I dont think anyone actually wanted POTUS to have the authority. Biden admit he didn't have it, Pelosi said he didn't have it. His DOE lawyers said the same. Then...all the sudden he decided it was actually OK. I warned all my friends with federal student loans (not many; most of us refinanced through our State Bank) to just go on living like this isn't happening. A few were considering making big purchases on the assumption 10-20k was getting forgiven.

The only people who wanted this wanted it because it benefit them. Not based on any desirable legal precedent. Like you were getting at, it would end up being a disaster.
 

Blazers46

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The only people who wanted this wanted it because it benefit them. Not based on any desirable legal precedent. Like you were getting at, it would end up being a disaster.
this basically goes for any policy.
 

jprue24

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I can't think of a single justification for it being a factor.
I know.
Your own bolded statement says willful's meaning changes based on the crime.

I'm not muddying anything. Gross negligence is the standard for the statute I cited.
No, you are muddying. Since we don't know what type of classified documents Biden had. The statute you cited may not even apply. That's why I stay pointing at usc 1924.

Leftists are all about class aren't they? If the issue is "some ethnic groups dont have equal access to education because they are poor" then they will still be able to get into schools based on their socioeconomic status. Justice Thomas states as much in his concurrence. So poor/middle class kids who don't have the resources of their wealthy peers can still get into good schools based on that.

"Leftists" have had twenty years to prepare for this. SCOTUS said a couple decades ago that this day was coming right around now.
I didn't introduce leftist to this particular conversation. I'm just pointing out that using the state legislature decision as proof that leftists fear about the current court, is unfounded is...well, not really rooted in reality.

This is exactly what white liberals think of Blacks. Their whole approach is "You CAN NOT succeed without our help." And then they pat themselves on the back for being such good people. That's a HUGE part of liberal ideology: doing something that makes them feel good about themselves despite the fact that it actually makes the situation worse or harms those they claim to be helping.
Lol.

No, it isn't.
 
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