AL MVP: Cabrera or Trout

[Irishnuke]

WAR is such a bullshiit stat. Not taking anything away from Triut because he had an awesome season, but Cabrera should win. Trout has more weapons around him. Three guys on the Angels have 90+ RBIs. Fielder is the only other Tiger with even 75 RBIs. Also, WAR is such a bullshiit stat. Anyone who thinks the Tigers would only win 7 fewer games without Cabrera is insane.

Lol...oops. Really trying to get my point across!

Also stand by my statement that Trout is surrounded by better hitters. He is. Other than Fielder, Cabrera has no protection. Trout has 3 teammates with 90+ RBIs (Hunter, Pujols, Trumbo). Cabrera has one. That's why I believe he is the Most Valuable Player.

 

[4irishnation]

MLB - Players - Yahoo! SportsLook at situational hitting not even close Cabrera hands down .420 with risp and 2 outs CLUTCH

 

[gkautz10]

Just curious, for what reason(s)?

For real, has he done something I am unaware of or is this just a personal opinion?

Here is a little taste of what I was referring to. Miguel Cabrera's off-field issues again overshadow his on-field excellence - MLB - Sporting News

I for some reason also remember him getting into another dispute with his wife before spring training of this season. I can't find an article on it though. I think his character is questionable and how he treats women is wrong IMO. I also understand that he could have done worse things but...

 

[Mr. Larson]

The RBI stat is not important

How do you figure?

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Lol...oops. Really trying to get my point across!

Also stand by my statement that Trout is surrounded by better hitters. He is. Other than Fielder, Cabrera has no protection. Trout has 3 teammates with 90+ RBIs (Hunter, Pujols, Trumbo). Cabrera has one. That's why I believe he is the Most Valuable Player.

Again i ask why you think RBI's are so important to this discussion and you do think WAR is valid

 

[KPENN]

How do you figure?

A lot of people look at it as a team stat. It's largely dependent on guys getting on in front of you.

 

[gkautz10]

I tend to believe that WAR is one of the most unbiased and useful stats in regard to a player.

 

[KPENN]

Lol...oops. Really trying to get my point across!

Also stand by my statement that Trout is surrounded by better hitters. He is. Other than Fielder, Cabrera has no protection. Trout has 3 teammates with 90+ RBIs (Hunter, Pujols, Trumbo). Cabrera has one. That's why I believe he is the Most Valuable Player.

Guess who hits in front of Hunter, Pujols and Trumbo to give them RBI chances?

 

[Irishnuke]

Again i ask why you think RBI's are so important to this discussion and you do think WAR is valid

Not trying to be a dick, but are you f'ing kidding me? RBI's are the most important offensive stat in baseball. Can't rely on the opponent making errors to score runs. Hitters have to drive them in. And NO, I don't think WAR is valid.

 

[jason_h537]

Not trying to be a dick, but are you f'ing kidding me? RBI's are the most important offensive stat in baseball. Can't rely on the opponent making errors to score runs. Hitters have to drive them in.

Preach

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

How do you figure?

It's a raw number, that is largely dependent on the players around him. If you want to use RBI at all you should use something like RBI-percentage which is the number of RBIs a player has minus his home runs and divided by runners on. FWIW I think Cabrera led the league in it or was at least in the top 3 while Trout was significantly lower. But this still isn't a very complete picture of what a player is doing on offense because it doesn't account for the other ways in which a player creates runs for his team. Stolen bases, taking extra bases, extra base hits, ect all need to be considered. Basically the RBI stat doesn't tell much about a player, is largely out of the players control, and can be misleading. It's comparable to judging the success of a starting pitcher by using the win total. There are so many things left out that are more important to a players performance

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Not trying to be a dick, but are you f'ing kidding me? RBI's are the most important offensive stat in baseball. Can't rely on the opponent making errors to score runs. Hitters have to drive them in. And NO, I don't think WAR is valid.

Not to be a dick, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[4irishnation]

Dumbest thing I've ever heard CLUTCH check out BA 2 outs and runners on.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

It's a pet peeve of mine when MVP arguments are centered around value as not equivalent to being the best player. The second year of the modern MVP award (1932) the writers gave it to Chuck Klein on a 7th place 61-92 team.

Anyhow, the idea that the Tigers would not be in the playoffs without Cabrera is a sound one but that same argument can be made about, what, a dozen players across the league? The Tigers also wouldn't be in the playoffs if Verlander, Fielder, Austin Jackson or even Max Scherzer weren't there.

Finally, for the life of me, I have no understanding of why RBI are considered a more important statistic than runs.

 

[jason_h537]

It's a raw number, that is largely dependent on the players around him.

You van use that argument for any number of things. The players around you determine how a pitcher approaches you.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Not trying to be a dick, but are you f'ing kidding me? RBI's are the most important offensive stat in baseball. Can't rely on the opponent making errors to score runs. Hitters have to drive them in. And NO, I don't think WAR is valid.

No, you are relying on your players to get on base. RBI is all about luck. A base hit to center field is the same thing no matter who is onbase or how many outs there are.

 

[greyhammer90]

a vote for trout is a vote for terrorism.

 

[4irishnation]

Not doing it again

 

[jason_h537]

a vote for trout is a vote for terrorism.

Let me ask you something. Do you love America? It's a simple yes or no question, Do you Love America?

I think we all know which player loves America. Pick a side we're at war!!!

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

You van use that argument for any number of things. The players around you determine how a pitcher approaches you.

agreed. That's where the value in using more encompassing stats is. My point is just that if you are going to be singular in throwing out stats (which is not a good way to argue) then tossing around RBIs is not a good move

 

[Mr. Larson]

A lot of people look at it as a team stat. It's largely dependent on guys getting on in front of you.

Sure, but you still have to drive them in. Cabrera was more productive with RISP this season than Trout:

Cabrera .356 BA, .424 OBP, .580 SLG, 1.004 OPS
Trout .327 BA, .396 OBP, .564 SLG, .960 OPS

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Sure, but you still have to drive them in. Cabrera was more production with RISP this season than Trout:

Cabrera .356 BA, .424 OBP, .580 SLG, 1.004 OPS
Trout .327 BA, .396 OBP, .564 SLG, .960 OPS

Was this grossly more productive or more productive on average? I'm not arguing; I'm asking.

 

[IrishLax]

I want to change my vote to Teddy. Clutch win tonight for the best team in the MLB.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Was this grossly more productive or more productive on average? I'm not arguing; I'm asking.

Trout was better in Win Probability Added, if that's your thing.

It's a stat that measures "clutch" by giving additional weight to good performance in games late and close. It's also a cumulative stat so Trout's month in the minors counts against him.

 

[Mr. Larson]

Was this grossly more productive or more productive on average? I'm not arguing; I'm asking.

F*CK...I had a careless spelling error and you "bolded it up" for everyone to see!

I would say a 44 point difference in OPS is substantial.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

F*CK...I had a careless spelling error and you "bolded it up" for everyone to see!

I would say a 44 point difference in OPS is substantial.

Haha my bad, I didn't even notice that. That's not what I was asking actually but someone gave me something close to what I was looking for. I like OPS but Cabrera is a power guy and it favors him over Trout who is an on-base guy. OPS+ is the stat I like and Trout is 169 and Cabrera is 167. Very close

 

[IrishLax]

Is there an MLB open thread anywhere??? Can't seem to find it.

This OAK vs. TEX game is awesome. Talk about a pretty epic choke job by Texas... both in this game and overall. Went from clearly best team in AL to "meh, best team in AL... at least for sure while Yankees are hurt... sorta" to "holy crap they're gonna be in a one game playoff."

 

[Ironman8]

Is there an MLB open thread anywhere??? Can't seem to find it.

This OAK vs. TEX game is awesome. Talk about a pretty epic choke job by Texas... both in this game and overall. Went from clearly best team in AL to "meh, best team in AL... at least for sure while Yankees are hurt... sorta" to "holy crap they're gonna be in a one game playoff."

Did you see Josh Hamilton's dropped pop up?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Is there an MLB open thread anywhere??? Can't seem to find it.

This OAK vs. TEX game is awesome. Talk about a pretty epic choke job by Texas... both in this game and overall. Went from clearly best team in AL to "meh, best team in AL... at least for sure while Yankees are hurt... sorta" to "holy crap they're gonna be in a one game playoff."

Really cheering for Oakland. Brandon McCarthy is my favorite baseball player and I would love to see his team win it all even if he can't play right now. They're one of the hottest teams in baseball right now. Oakland vs. Cincinnati is my dream World Series right now.

 

[jason_h537]

Oakland vs. Cincinnati is my dream World Series right now.

Braves, gotta root for Chipper.