LOVEMYIRISH
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Some can, yes.
But Walker is not a Premier RB in any sense. He's a VERY complete back...but unless he gets some jets he will never ever be considered for a Heisman-type award.
Some can, yes.
But Walker is not a Premier RB in any sense. He's a VERY complete back...but unless he gets some jets he will never ever be considered for a Heisman-type award.
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Fighting_Irish9
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I didn't realize we were only accepting Heisman RB's....Good luck with those expectations
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Fighting_Irish9
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Well there are 1 maybe 2 of them a year putting up "Heisman RB numbers so it seems pretty silly to call ours out for not doing such a thing
LOVEMYIRISH
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To be clear, what I am saying is that Walker will never be considered one of the top10 RB's in the country since he is not a great runner. He's a great blocker & receiver, but he does those better than he runs.
That's all I am saying.
We have definitely beat this horse before, but it's worth mentioning from time to time... We need to accept that we have a gap at RB and hope in future years that the new recruits will be able to block & receive as well as Walker. Because chances are they will be better rushers...and will, in the future, be a Top10 RB.
We have been really hurt on truly game-breaking RBs these past 10+ years. It would be awesome to have one again.
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dankus
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He didn't say Heisman RB.
He said premier.
Arkansas has TWO premier backs in McFadden and Felix Jones.
Clemson has TWO premier backs in Spiller and Davis.
And these players are young.
McFadden is a sophomore.
Jones is a sophomore.
Spiller is a freshman
Davis is a sophomore.
To expect at least a quality output from someone who has the vast majority of the carries is ignoring a dire need. Yes, he does block well, and yes he does catch the ball well. But which would you rather have, someone who's first role is to provide offense or someone who is merely a brick wall?
To put production into light, Davis of Clemson had 17 TDs this season. Walker had 8 and with 38 more carries. CJ Spiller, the person who split carries Davis, had 10 TD, with 109 less carries.
Desiring a premier running back is necessary when you are pulling in premier recruits like Aldridge, like Allen, like Tate.
Don't count Sharpley out of the QB race. The kid is a great athlete and has all the tools. He may well be a major surprise next year. Fraser is no slouch either. I think it will be a three horse race with Sharpley, Fraser and Jones. Clausen will spend the year as a redshirt learning the system and the speed of the game. Then watch out for him in '08.
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RipDirty
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Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by IrishDon103
You people do realize that Sharpley was about as highly rated as Fraser and Jones out of high school..right?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I'm not so sure that is the case.
Rivals rated all of them 4 Stars.
Jones was the #2 Dual QB (Tebow was the only 5 Star).
Frazer was the #9 ProStyle QB (Mustain and Stafford only 5 Stars)
Sharpley was the #12 ProStyle QB (Sanchez was the only 5 Star)
Frazer and Sharpley at #9 and #12 are a push (rankingwise) and it's hard to compare different style QBs particularly when you plug them into a different offense that what they ran in HS. Div 1 ball, especially CW's offense, is a hell of a lot more cerebral than HS ball. Carlyle Holliday lamented that aspect. Hard to adjust when just about everybody on the other side is big and fast.
Interesting to note that Sharpley was ranked 3 slots higher than a kid some of you may have heard of, he committed to Texas, Colt McCoy.
Rivals also had rating that show some separation. But I suspect these ratings are influenced by who is simply the better athlete, not necessarily the better QB.
Jones 6.0
Fraser 5.8
Sharpley 5.6
Kids develop physically and mentally at different rates. Some peak early (Powlus?). Some blossom late (Huarte).
Great comment Jiggs about Shark and Sharpley having similar career attempts.
Gonna be an interesting Spring!
Sharpley was a 3 star prospect. If he was 4 star he would have at least been recruited by Michigan.
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Famboo28
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You're putting wayyyy too much weight into how many stars a prospect is. The important thing is not so much how highly Rivals thinks of a player going into college, but how he performs at the college level. I mean, look at A.J. Hawk, he was a 3 star player going into his freshman year and he turned out to be the most dominant defensive player last year. Look at Garrett Wolfe, he was a meager 2 star coming into high school, and he wowed many people this year and last year. The fact of the matter is, the quarterback thought highest of by Rivals will not win the starting job. Rather, the quarterback who developes best under and best understands Charlie Weis' offense will be the starter.
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solo
Guest
I think you need to look at how much coaching these guys had as well. A 3 star guy coming in and getting coached up for 3 and 4 years can produce a great player. But how many 3 star guys that get Tyrone quality coaching amount to anything?
I clarified my original post where I had mixed Rival AND Scout ratings/rankings. It now shows both services.
Interesting that you mention Sharpley as a 3 Star prospect and then note that if he was a 4 Star Michigan would have recruited him. Michigan did recruit him. The GoBlueWolverine Staff did some detailed writeups on Sharpley and Schoenhoft. One went to ND and the other went to OSU as I recall. UM ended up with Jason Forcier (who wanted ND but wasn't offered if I recall correctly) who decommitted from ASU for the Wolverines.
Rivals rated Forcier the #15 Dual QB with a 5.6 Rating (Same as Sharpley!) and Rivals gave Forcier 3 Stars (Same as Sharpley!).
LOVEMYIRISH
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SHARPLEY RATINGS
Rivals = 3-star
Scout = 4-star
Until we see him play, we have no idea if he's a 1,2,3,4, or 5 star.
He's been given 2 passes all year...I have no opinion of him OR ANY OTHER ND QB at this moment...except for Quinn.
And ANYONE on this board who thinks they have any inkling of what to expect is fooling themselves. It's a black box until spring practice gentlemen.
Not being considered for the Heisman puts him in some the company of some very fine ND RBs, doesn't it?
ND's never had a Heisman RB in over 70 campaigns. ND notes that only a few ND RBs got consideration.
- Shakespeare 3rd '35
- Miller 4th '42
- Kelly 6th '43
- Sitko 8th '49
- Wolski 11th '65
- Eddy 3rd '66
- Ferguson 5th '79
- Pinkett 16th '83, Pinkett 8th '85
- Brooks 5th '92
Pinkett 4.6 ypc
Ferguson 5.2
Brooks 5.4
Sitko 6.1
Walker's averaged 4.9 this season and 4.73 in his career with one season to go. He just passed Julius Jones for 4th place on the ND All-Time Rushing Leaders. Jones averaged 4.8 ypc for his career.
LOVEMYIRISH
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It puts him in the company of most. Ryan Grant shares that distinction too.
Yup...but stats mean little next to true production...that which leads to scores.
And while I really like DW, I would not rate him as highly as I rate JJ.
"To put production into light", only 2 RBs in ND history scored 17 TDs in a season, Ferguson '79 and Pinkett '84. The Bus (a FB) in his best year scored 16. His last season at ND he scored 10! Julius Jones in his "breakout" 5th year season scored a total of 10 TDs on 229 carries, 4 fewer than Walker.
ND scored 49 Offensive TDs, 35 were through the air.
If you had the most prolific QB in ND history, a pair of ND TD recordholders at WR (6'-5 and 6'-2), and a TE (6'-4) that scores with one hand, played the season without a FB, and had an OLine that consistently failed to open holes, what kind of play would call in the Red Zone?
A pass play or a smashmnouthHoltz like Full House backfield running off tackle behind Aaron Taylor?
Yeah, I'd call a pass in the Red Zone too. (So would Tommy Bowden if he had Brady, Jeff, Rhema, and John!)
"To put production into light", ND rushed for 14 TD, Walker had 50%. When you take out the 3 WR TDs (Grimes, West, and Shark), a pair of QB keepers, and Fake Punt, the TBs accounted for 8 TDs. Walker had 7, that's 88% of the RB TDs!
"To put production into light", ND rushed for 1491 yds. Walker rushed for 1139 or 76.4% of the TEAM's Total Rushing Yds. When you eliminate the 7 FB rushes, QB "rushes" (predominately pass plays gone awry), WR rushes, and Fake Punt, ND's RBs rushed for 1331 yds. Walker produced 85.6% of RB yardage.
LOVEMYIRISH
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Jones scored 10 TDs on one of the WORST ND teams in recent memory. Imagine what he could do on a GOOD ND team. He had 10 TDs out of 13 total. The other 3 were Ryan Grant. The team in 2003 had 23 TDs TOTAL!!! And Jones had 10.
Walker has 7 TDs rushing. 2 of those came against opponents who won more than 4 games. (1 against Purdue, 1 against GT) He was blanked in 6 of 12 games.
This year 7 out of 49 TDs were his.
Last year 9 out of 53 TDs were his.
Because we are unable to run. Even Weis has said that establishing the running game is critical to his game planning.
Given that our running back can't turn a corner, you must pass. Walker is far too slow to go around an end like a premier back can.
AND since we don't have a good power runner this year like RPN, you have to pass... (RPN had 6 TDs on 31 carries last year...Thomas had 5 on 63 carries...)
Actually, Weis calls a pass because he can't get the ball run in. Running the ball is far less risky than passing in the Red Zone...Weis has stated that many times in his press conferences. However, we can't run the ball well...so we pass.
Out of Rushing TDs that were not TRICK plays... (there was 1 with Samardzija) Walker has 7 of 13. Grimes and West are far faster than Walker and were used because we could not reverse the ball with Walker as the main carrier...he's too slow.
Whoopee. He had the carries. Congrats to him. He was backed up by a TRUE Freshman. It shows the desperation to which our running game has fallen.
He's a great blocker.
He's a solid receiver.
He's slower than mud and cannot turn a corner to save his life.
Our running game blows and that's all there is too it. It's costing us games.
The OL bears some responsibility. That is important to note.
However, when you have a back as slow as or goes down as easy as Darius....well GOOD teams don't burn energy trying to stop him...so they drop back 7 into coverage knowing he is of minimal threat.
jiggafini19
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The running game needs more diversity. Travis Thomas and James Aldridge need to be more involved in 2007, as should Munir Prince.
It doesn't need to be a running back by committee or a "four headed monster." But mixing it up a bit could certainly help, especially with a new QB and new WR starting.
It doesn't need to be a running back by committee or a "four headed monster." But mixing it up a bit could certainly help, especially with a new QB and new WR starting.
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bigdon
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One small correction BGIF. ND had Lattner in 1953. Heisman RB
a small but notable correction.
not that i'm adding much to the discussion, but i'd just like to point out my appreciation of the ongoing debate between BGIF and Lovemyirish. both make some really good points, which is a refreshing change from the sniping and bickering that's dominated the boards lately. kudos to both for the spirited discussion.
i'd give you both some rep if i didn't have to spread it around first.
not that i'm adding much to the discussion, but i'd just like to point out my appreciation of the ongoing debate between BGIF and Lovemyirish. both make some really good points, which is a refreshing change from the sniping and bickering that's dominated the boards lately. kudos to both for the spirited discussion.
i'd give you both some rep if i didn't have to spread it around first.
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bigdon
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I agree completely. Thanks to both for some thoughtful discussion.
jiggafini19
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BigIrish, I've rep'ed you for having a lucid thought in your brain.
Haven't seen much of that here in the last month.
Haven't seen much of that here in the last month.
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TexasDomer
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Regardless of the RB, if the OL isn't creating holes up front, I doubt it matters who is holding the ball. Our OL seemed more comfortable pass blocking this year. What I miss is the old Moore-coached lines that put the DL two to three yards back before the RB even hit the line of scrimmage.
Looking at the video footage, I didn't see many holes for our RBs to run through.
Looking at the video footage, I didn't see many holes for our RBs to run through.
LOVEMYIRISH
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This is a valid point. Even the best runner can't bust through two Defensive Lineman.
However, last year we had a better line and more holes, but DW still has some speed issues in getting to the holes to exploit them.
Let's keep this in perspective though, I am not saying that DW sucks...I am merely saying he is not a premier back from a running standpoint, since he does not hit hard or have the ability to get a breakaway run when a hole does open up.
Our longest run in the 3 years DW has been running back was by Brady Quinn against USC for 60 yards.
Out of all the teams in NCAA DivI-A only these teams don't have a run over 60 yards in 3 years:
BC (57)
GT (56)
Iowa State (58)
Wisconsin (60)
UTEP (55)
Akron (57)
Buffalo (54) - can't confirm this one
CSU (49)
Georgia (52)
Mississippi (60)
Florida Atlantic (50)
North Texas (59)
Hawaii (53)
New Mexico State (42)
Utah State (51)
That's 15 out of nearly 120. Out of these teams only Georiga has been to a BCS bowl in the last 3 years if memory serves.
Our running game is less-than-dynamic...
jiggafini19
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I also think the offense missed LeVoir and Stevenson more than we could have ever realized.
LOVEMYIRISH
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Yeah, our OL is going to be painful for a couple years...but those guys were most definitely missed.
jiggafini19
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Painful? Maybe for a couple of MONTHS.
Young and Duncan secure the tackle spots, Carufel and Olsen join Sullivan in the middle. I think they'll be a very phyiscal group. There will be an adjustment period, naturally, hence the brutal September schedule. By the time all is said and done, these guys will be ripping people's heads off heading into 2008.
I will miss Santucci's holding penalties.
Young and Duncan secure the tackle spots, Carufel and Olsen join Sullivan in the middle. I think they'll be a very phyiscal group. There will be an adjustment period, naturally, hence the brutal September schedule. By the time all is said and done, these guys will be ripping people's heads off heading into 2008.
I will miss Santucci's holding penalties.
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TexasDomer
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I'll miss Morton missing stunting DLs and blitzing LBs.
jiggafini19
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In all fairness, RBs and TEs were missing blocking assignments too.
Holding penalties in mass quantities is not acceptable for 5th year guys. Santucci was getting one or two on the same drive during certain games this season.
Holding penalties in mass quantities is not acceptable for 5th year guys. Santucci was getting one or two on the same drive during certain games this season.
LOVEMYIRISH
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Yeah, that's very true. It gets very old too.
I am pretty sure holding and getting penalties is not part of the offensive playbook of CW.
It's not a small correction, don, it's a hugh one.
But I purposely left Lattner out.
I expected an immediate, "Now wait an minute. What about Johnny Lattner?"
I was sandbagging as Lattner didn't have "Heisman numbers" for a RB according to this thread.
Lattner didn't average 5.0 ypc, he only averaged 4.9 his junior and senior seasons the same number Walker produced this year.
Lattner didn't score 17 TD like the Clemson RB that was used to judge Walker's "production". Lattner only scored 9, all of 2 more than Walker did on the ground (one of Walker's 8 TDs was on a reception)
Lattner didn't rush for 1000 yds like Walker did. Lattner had 651, more than 500 yds less than Walker. Walker actually rushed for more yards as a freshman (in a Willingham offense and he sat out the first game!) than Lattner did in his Heisman Season. Walker rushed for more yards in his first two years than Lattner did in 3 seasons as an upperclassman.
Latter did catch passes out of the backfield like Walker but only caught about 1/3 as many.
By the standard of this thread and the Aldridge, Prince should share the carries with Walker thread from during the season Lattner would be judged just another "mediocre"RB like Walker. (mediocre was the lable you pinned on him, Love)
Thanks don for actually reading the post and for recognizing ND history.