4-2-5 Defense: Discussion & Slotting players

Veritate Duce Progredi

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We just wrapped up NSD and we know our roster.

Here's a list of resources on the 4-2-5 defense if anyone wants to read for a better understanding of how it can operate (no clue if this is how Elko runs his).

4-2-5 Defensive breakdowns

The 4-2-5 puts a primacy on speed. Decrease the size of the field at every position (maybe barring NT. Even the DT needs to be athletic enough to move).

They want the DEs to be able to move across the face of the OL, they want the LB/S's to fly down field after their read. They have position groupings that can be called differently, which gives the defense an incredible amount of variability since you can independently call three groupings.

If anyone has any info or better articles on the 4-2-5, please post them.

I'm interested most in seeing a guesstimated 2-deep given our current roster. We can use this to track how our guesses change over time and discuss the merits/detractions of the 4-2-5 base.

If a thread like this already exists, please merge. I did a search for "4 2 5" and "4-2-5" and it returned nothing.

Link to 85 man roster

My 2-deep:

SDE: Jay Hayes, Khalid Kareem (toss-up & Kareem could move inside?)
DT: Jerry Tilery, Jonathon Bonner
NT: Daniel Cage, Elijah Taylor
WDE: Daelin Hayes, Andrew Trumbetti (Okwara knocking on the door?)

LB1: Nyles Morgan, Greer Martini
LB2: Tevon Coney, Jonathon Jones?

Field Corner
FC: Shaun Crawford, Troy Pride Jr . (has Pride been impressing?)
Boundary Corner
BC: Donte Vaughn, Nick Watkins

Free Safety
FS: Devin Studstill, Isaiah Robertson
Strong Safety
SS: Elliot, Fertitta .

Rover: Tranquil, Bilal (or will Perry make a push?)

That's my best effort after some casual reading. I'd love some more knowledgable posters to explain the athletic make-up desired for each position in this variable defense.

Just found this gem on what types of athletes you want from CB & S in 4-2-5:
Physical makeup of the secondary and rover in the 4-2-5
 
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G

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How will the defensive change affect our roster? Seems like some of the DTs may be affected, but we had been a bit thin on the 1-tech there anyway so it will probably work itself out.

Thinking that our Rovers take many snaps from some of the LB depth, and guys like Martini could be somewhat marginalized.

CB with speed like Pride get a boost.

What else?
 
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Domina Nostra

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This is how I see it:

DT1
Starters: Daniel Cage, Jerry Tillery
Rotation: Darnell Ewell, Jonathan Bonner, Peter Mokwuah
Bench: Brandon Tiassum, Elijah Taylor, Jr., Kurt Hinish

SDE
Starter: Jay Hayes
Rotation: Kalid Kareem, Micah Dew-Treadway
Bench: Adetokunbo Ogundeji, Jonathon MacCollister, Myron Tagovailoa-Amosa

WDE
Starter: Daelin Hayes
Rotation: Andrew Trumbetti, Julian Okwara
Bench: Kofi Wardlow

LB
Starters: Nyles Morgan, Tevon Coney
Rotation: Greer Martini, Asmar Bilal, Jamir Jones
Bench: Josh Barajas, Jr., Jonathan Jones, Drew White, David Adams

Rover
Starters: Dru Tranquil
Rotation: Spencer Perry, DJ Morgan
Bench: Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah

SS
Starters: Jalen Elliot
Rotation: Nico Fertitta
Bench: Jordan Genmark-Heath

FS
Starters: Devin Studstill
Rotation: Isaiah Robertson, Nick Coleman
Bench: [Ashton White, Jr.]

CB
Starters: Donte Vaughn, Julian Love
Rotation: Shaun Crawford, Jr, Tony Pride, Jr., Nick Watkins,
Bench: Ashton White, Jr.
 
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IrishLax

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This is how I see it:

DT1
Starters: Daniel Cage, Jerry Tillery
Rotation: Darnell Ewell, Jonathan Bonner, Peter Mokwuah
Bench: Brandon Tiassum, Elijah Taylor, Jr., Kurt Hinish

SDE
Starter: Jay Hayes
Rotation: Kalid Kareem, Micah Dew-Treadway
Bench: Adetokunbo Ogundeji, Jonathon MacCollister, Myron Tagovailoa-Amosa

WDE
Starter: Daelin Hayes
Rotation: Andrew Trumbetti, Julian Okwara
Bench: Kofi Wardlow

LB
Starters: Nyles Morgan, Tevon Coney
Rotation: Greer Martini, Asmar Bilal, Jamir Jones
Bench: Josh Barajas, Jr., Jonathan Jones, Drew White, David Adams

Rover
Starters: Dru Tranquil
Rotation: Spencer Perry, DJ Morgan
Bench: Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah

SS
Starters: Jalen Elliot
Rotation: Nico Fertitta
Bench: Jordan Genmark-Heath

FS
Starters: Devin Studstill
Rotation: Isaiah Robertson, Nick Coleman
Bench: [Ashton White, Jr.]

CB
Starters: Donte Vaughn, Julian Love
Rotation: Shaun Crawford, Jr, Tony Pride, Jr., Nick Watkins,
Bench: Ashton White, Jr.

I would be surprised if Kareem isn't a starter in some capacity. I'm also really interested to see what happens with Okwara because I've heard he has an incredible amount of innate pass rushing skill but is like 20 pounds too light to play DE. Elko talked about a "Drop" position that might really fit him or Hayes or both. At the end of the day, it might end up being more a 3-4 look most of the time with Kareem/Tillery/Jay Hayes and a guy like Okwara/Hayes standing up as the "Drop" and a guy like Bilal at "Rover" as what most people call OLBs.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Asmar Bilal end up at Rover or that "Buck" linebacker spot... IMO, it's how he configures the DBs and OLBs that is going to be the most interesting thing to watch in spring practice.
 

Meatloaf

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http://irishsportsdaily.com/forums/1/topics/3011

Per Mike Frank, who spoke with Lyght:

Jalen Elliott to FS

Devin Studstill to SS

Nick Coleman could move to FS

Ashton White will get a look at FS.

Spencer Perry, DJ Morgan and Tranquill will play both SS, but could be more rover candidates moving forward.

Nicco will remain at FS.
 

Domina Nostra

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I would be surprised if Kareem isn't a starter in some capacity. I'm also really interested to see what happens with Okwara because I've heard he has an incredible amount of innate pass rushing skill but is like 20 pounds too light to play DE. Elko talked about a "Drop" position that might really fit him or Hayes or both. At the end of the day, it might end up being more a 3-4 look most of the time with Kareem/Tillery/Jay Hayes and a guy like Okwara/Hayes standing up as the "Drop" and a guy like Bilal at "Rover" as what most people call OLBs.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Asmar Bilal end up at Rover or that "Buck" linebacker spot... IMO, it's how he configures the DBs and OLBs that is going to be the most interesting thing to watch in spring practice.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. If they can figure out how to get Bilal to play fast, they'll have to play him.

My real hope is D-line rotation. We didn't have the players to do it for years, then we refused to when we could.
 

dwshade

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http://irishsportsdaily.com/forums/1/topics/3011

Per Mike Frank, who spoke with Lyght:

Jalen Elliott to FS

Devin Studstill to SS

Nick Coleman could move to FS

Ashton White will get a look at FS.

Spencer Perry, DJ Morgan and Tranquill will play both SS, but could be more rover candidates moving forward.

Nicco will remain at FS.

Correct and Lyght had Watkins and Vaughan at Boundary corner with Love, Pride and Crawford at Field corner. Crawford, when healthy, is a natural at nickel corner. Also listening to Lyght it sounded like Watkins and Love were likely starters. Said not having Watkins last year really hurt.
 

Dizzyphil

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I like everything I have read so far....

now just get the defense to wrap-up and put them on their backs.
 

Downinthebend

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What you linked was mostly the resources about TCU's brand of 4-2-5, I don't feel like its all too relevant to Elko's flavor.
 

Domina Nostra

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Correct and Lyght had Watkins and Vaughan at Boundary corner with Love, Pride and Crawford at Field corner. Crawford, when healthy, is a natural at nickel corner. Also listening to Lyght it sounded like Watkins and Love were likely starters. Said not having Watkins last year really hurt.

it sounded to me like they said everyone was going to try every position, rather than pigeon holing anyone.
 

dwshade

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it sounded to me like they said everyone was going to try every position, rather than pigeon holing anyone.

I don't think that's what they have in mind. A handful of players maybe but it's obvious who the corners are going to be and which side of the field they belong on. And it's clear Elliott is a FS while Studstill is a SS.
 

Wild Bill

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I would be surprised if Kareem isn't a starter in some capacity. I'm also really interested to see what happens with Okwara because I've heard he has an incredible amount of innate pass rushing skill but is like 20 pounds too light to play DE. Elko talked about a "Drop" position that might really fit him or Hayes or both. At the end of the day, it might end up being more a 3-4 look most of the time with Kareem/Tillery/Jay Hayes and a guy like Okwara/Hayes standing up as the "Drop" and a guy like Bilal at "Rover" as what most people call OLBs.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Asmar Bilal end up at Rover or that "Buck" linebacker spot... IMO, it's how he configures the DBs and OLBs that is going to be the most interesting thing to watch in spring practice.

Any info on how Kareem is developing? He could be good if he commits himself to the gym.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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What you linked was mostly the resources about TCU's brand of 4-2-5, I don't feel like its all too relevant to Elko's flavor.

You are free to post all of the links you can find describing Elko's 4-2-5 and the physical profile desired for certain positions. I'm sure you have something to offer besides complaining so I anxiously await your next post.
 

PANDFAN

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Downinthebend

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You are free to post all of the links you can find describing Elko's 4-2-5 and the physical profile desired for certain positions. I'm sure you have something to offer besides complaining so I anxiously await your next post.


Woah there bud, I was just pointing something out and don't feel like I deserved that response. I can post a ton on Long, but I'm not really a defensive guy. I'll post the 7 or so condensed games of elko i watched once I get to a computer.
 

BobbyMac

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Thank you. Studstill to SS was just what the dumb basketball player called for.

Now we're getting somewhere.
 

Luckylucci

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Thank you. Studstill to SS was just what the dumb basketball player called for.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I agree, always thought he was a better SS than FS. But his versatility to potentially play both was intriguing. Also, Elliot always had the better coverage skills, going all the way back to Irish Invasion. BVG for president. Elko now has to get them ready to play.
 

CIrishWin

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Does anyone know what kind of rotation Elko uses on defense. I could not find mention of it. I think that would go a long way to help the defense to create a competition between units. 1st team proving the 1st team and 2nd team letting them know they are right on their heels. Also helps create a sense of pride for the overall defense.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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The one thing this thread hasn't mentioned is the Drop position.

I'm not sure, but I get it's a hybrid position on the opposite side from the rover. Here is an Elko quote :

"The Drop, standing them on two feet allows you to create a range of what that kid can be," Elko said. "Whether it's a Daelin Hayes who is on the top end of it or a Julian Okwara who only was 220-something pounds right now, it just gives those kids a chance to be successful without being a 4-3 defensive end."
 
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Bogtrotter07

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So the way I see it you kind of have this :

** Buck ** Mike ** Rover
Drop **
** Lineman ** Lineman ** Defensive end
 

Downinthebend

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You are free to post all of the links you can find describing Elko's 4-2-5 and the physical profile desired for certain positions. I'm sure you have something to offer besides complaining so I anxiously await your next post.

Here is 1 hr and 20 minutes of condensed Elko Snaps versus various schemes https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvFI28CIIB09kZm39zJ5w47Bj5RtIGCJ2.

Three things in particular stand out to me,

the first is that he likes to do late line shifts,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=1m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=4m14s

the second is that he has this S blitz that when it works will look brilliant, and when it doesn't will remind people of BVG (the river-boat gambling type).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=2m31s

And the third is he loves to disguise coverage even versus no huddle check-with-me uptempo teams (like Indiana 2015,etc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=11m41s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=3m28s

And I guess a fourth is that occasionally players were timing the snap count even versus hurry up teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=3m43s

Finally, "complaining" isn't what I did earlier. Comparing Elko's and TCU's 4-2-5 is similar to comparing Charlie Weis's "pro style" with Long's "Pro Style" because they are both "Pro Style".
 
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Luckylucci

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The one thing this thread hasn't mentioned is the Drop position.

I'm not sure, but I get it's a hybrid position on the opposite side from the rover. Here is an Elko quote :

I think Lax touched on it a little bit in Post #4.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Here is 1 hr and 20 minutes of condensed Elko Snaps versus various schemes https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvFI28CIIB09kZm39zJ5w47Bj5RtIGCJ2.

Three things in particular stand out to me,

the first is that he likes to do late line shifts,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=1m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=4m14s

the second is that he has this S blitz that when it works will look brilliant, and when it doesn't will remind people of BVG (the river-boat gambling type).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=2m31s

And the third is he loves to disguise coverage even versus no huddle check-with-me uptempo teams (like Indiana 2015,etc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=11m41s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=3m28s

And I guess a fourth is that occasionally players were timing the snap count even versus hurry up teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=3m43s

Finally, "complaining" isn't what I did earlier. Comparing Elko's and TCU's 4-2-5 is similar to comparing Charlie Weis's "pro style" with Long's "Pro Style" because they are both "Pro Style".

Out sick today, so my apologies if I was Mr. aggressive guy. I honestly don't know that much about various defenses so I was hoping for what you provided above. And Studstill to SS also makes me happy.
 

Dizzyphil

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Here is 1 hr and 20 minutes of condensed Elko Snaps versus various schemes https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvFI28CIIB09kZm39zJ5w47Bj5RtIGCJ2.

Three things in particular stand out to me,

the first is that he likes to do late line shifts,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=1m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=4m14s

the second is that he has this S blitz that when it works will look brilliant, and when it doesn't will remind people of BVG (the river-boat gambling type).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m44s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=2m31s

And the third is he loves to disguise coverage even versus no huddle check-with-me uptempo teams (like Indiana 2015,etc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=11m41s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpmSjBnmfR4&feature=youtu.be&t=3m28s

And I guess a fourth is that occasionally players were timing the snap count even versus hurry up teams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TF0qxtgy_U&feature=youtu.be&t=3m43s

Finally, "complaining" isn't what I did earlier. Comparing Elko's and TCU's 4-2-5 is similar to comparing Charlie Weis's "pro style" with Long's "Pro Style" because they are both "Pro Style".

I like it - there's a lot of speed on that defense. If any part of the Irish 4-2-5 D is slow, it will get hammered.
 
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