3-4 Defense

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm focusing on more down the road though.... Let's say in 3 years, all 3 of the guys mentioned above are all-american type players (possible?). I, along with everyone else, probably wants all 3 of them occupying a starting spot, not rotating at DE. I think that's why everyone pegs him as a LT, or RT (Next Sam Young?), assuming Tuitt and Lynch end up starting at DE.

This is a little off-topic, but I worry about Lynch getting utilized properly in our 3-4. He strikes me as one of those rare elite 4-3 pure pass rushing DEs. In a 4-3, he'd ideally be about 275 lbs and would be free to just rush the edge on every play.

Right now, I'm assuming he'll see the field on every obvious passing down in our standard 4-3 look (Nix goes off, Johnson slides inside with KLM, Fleming/ Williams drops down, and Lynch comes in.) He'll no doubt be very effective that way.

But will he ever start as a 3-4 DE for us? Do we want him to him to bulk up to ~300 lbs and focus on controlling his lanes? That kinda seems like we'd be trying to force an elite 4-3 DE into a 4-3 DT just to suit our system.

Hope I'm wrong.

 

[koonja]

This is a little off-topic, but I worry about Lynch getting utilized properly in our 3-4. He strikes me as one of those rare elite 4-3 pure pass rushing DEs. In a 4-3, he'd ideally be about 275 lbs and would be free to just rush the edge on every play.

Right now, I'm assuming he'll see the field on every obvious passing down in our standard 4-3 look (Nix goes off, Johnson slides inside with KLM, Fleming/ Williams drops down, and Lynch comes in.) He'll no doubt be very effective that way.

But will he ever start as a 3-4 DE for us? Do we want him to him to bulk up to ~300 lbs and focus on controlling his lanes? That kinda seems like we'd be trying to force an elite 4-3 DE into a 4-3 DT just to suit our system.

Hope I'm wrong.

As you pointed out, when we go 4-3 our DE (Johnson) slides inside. I'm betting that Tuitt will do this considering he has the size/frame to grow into a NT, and Lynch will stay out on the end (remember, we go 4-3 ~ 40% of the time). I don't think Lynch will be a problem at end when we are in 3-4. There will be a blitzing backer to soak up some of the mess in the middle. Or perhaps Niklas does end up at end, and he slides inside during a 4-3 like Johnson does now? It really doesn't matter at this point. We'll figure it out.... I'm just glad we got the monsters in the trenches.

 

[TerryTate]

This is a little off-topic, but I worry about Lynch getting utilized properly in our 3-4. He strikes me as one of those rare elite 4-3 pure pass rushing DEs. In a 4-3, he'd ideally be about 275 lbs and would be free to just rush the edge on every play.

Right now, I'm assuming he'll see the field on every obvious passing down in our standard 4-3 look (Nix goes off, Johnson slides inside with KLM, Fleming/ Williams drops down, and Lynch comes in.) He'll no doubt be very effective that way.

But will he ever start as a 3-4 DE for us? Do we want him to him to bulk up to ~300 lbs and focus on controlling his lanes? That kinda seems like we'd be trying to force an elite 4-3 DE into a 4-3 DT just to suit our system.

Hope I'm wrong.

He and Tuitt will be KLM and Ethan Johnson. He's going to be a freak. He was 6'6 245 when he was being recruited and he's put on 10 lbs as of the spring game. He's going to grow.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

As you pointed out, when we go 4-3 our DE (Johnson) slides inside. I'm betting that Tuitt will do this considering he has the size/frame to grow into a NT, and Lynch will stay out on the end (remember, we go 4-3 ~ 40% of the time). I don't think Lynch will be a problem at end when we are in 3-4. There will be a blitzing backer to soak up some of the mess in the middle. Or perhaps Niklas does end up at end, and he slides inside during a 4-3 like Johnson does now? It really doesn't matter at this point. We'll figure it out.... I'm just glad we got the monsters in the trenches.

I agree that this is a great problem to have.

Do you get my concern though? Most fans assume that Lynch will be a starting DE in 2012 (if not sooner), but for him to get a lot of reps in our 3-4 looks, he'd have to bulk up significantly and forgo being a QB-seeking missile. I don't really want to see him do that.

 

[koonja]

I agree that this is a great problem to have.

Do you get my concern though? Most fans assume that Lynch will be a starting DE in 2012 (if not sooner), but for him to get a lot of reps in our 3-4 looks, he'd have to bulk up significantly and forgo being a QB-seeking missile. I don't really want to see him do that.

Yeah I see what you're saying.... Kelly claims his staple is changing strategy/schemes to fit personel. So instead of having Lynch give up his speed/athleticism for adding weight, I'd bet they play more 4-3 when these guys become starters.

 

[TerryTate]

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Help me understand this, Terry.

I know Green Bay runs a 3-4; how would that correspond to our personnel?

I know that EJ is our bigger run-stuffing DE, and KLM is supposed to be more of a pass rusher, but I thought that being a 3-4 DE (or NT for that matter) is fundamentally at odds with pass-rushing; it's just not part of their job description. They're not trying to penetrate; am I wrong?

 

[koonja]

Help me understand this, Terry.

I know Green Bay runs a 3-4; how would that correspond to our personnel?

I know that EJ is our bigger run-stuffing DE, and KLM is supposed to be more of a pass rusher, but I thought that being a 3-4 DE (or NT for that matter) is fundamentally at odds with pass-rushing; it's just not part of their job description. They're not trying to penetrate; am I wrong?

That's why if I had to guess, when we have Lynch and Tuitt (perhaps Niklas) starting on the D-line, the majority of our plays will be ran from a 4-3.

 

[DaBLKIrishman]

Help me understand this, Terry.

I know Green Bay runs a 3-4; how would that correspond to our personnel?

I know that EJ is our bigger run-stuffing DE, and KLM is supposed to be more of a pass rusher, but I thought that being a 3-4 DE (or NT for that matter) is fundamentally at odds with pass-rushing; it's just not part of their job description. They're not trying to penetrate; am I wrong?

Penetration is always good its when they overpenetrate it becomes a liability and opens up lanes. In passing situations you want penetration so that the QB can't step up in the pocket and have to run right into your outside pass rush.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Penetration is always good its when they overpenetrate it becomes a liability and opens up lanes. In passing situations you want penetration so that the QB can't step up in the pocket and have to run right into your outside pass rush.

I'm pretty certain that 3-4 D-linemen are never trying to penetrate. Their primary responsibilities are to (1) control their gaps; and (2) keep the O-linemen off their LBs, thereby giving the LBs freedom to run to the ball. If they penetrate, their LBs start getting blocked by O-linemen, and the opposing RB can rip off big chunks of yardage.

Maybe that changes if they read pass instead of run, but I doubt it. It's just a complete change of philosophy for a 3-4 D-linemen to penetrate.

 

[TerryTate]

That was actually the Packers "Psycho" package on third down where they had 5 LBs walking around and only a NT on the line. Pretty funny to watch teams try to handle that.

If I learned anything last year, it's that the defense adjusted throughout the entire season. Diaco learned where the better parts of our defense were and played to our strengths. If we are more dangerous moving a Tuitt type end inside and having Lynch and Ishaq line up on the edges on first down, then we'll do that. But Kelly & Diaco want a 3-4 for a reason, and I think they have a good idea for how they'll be able to use these guys. I think the size and speed of our new LBs will allow our ends to get after the quarterback a little more than we're seeing now.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If I learned anything last year, it's that the defense adjusted throughout the entire season. Diaco learned where the better parts of our defense were and played to our strengths. If we are more dangerous moving a Tuitt type end inside and having Lynch and Ishaq line up on the edges on first down, then we'll do that. But Kelly & Diaco want a 3-4 for a reason, and I think they have a good idea for how they'll be able to use these guys. I think the size and speed of our new LBs will allow our ends to get after the quarterback a little more than we're seeing now.

Totally with you on trusting Kelly & Co. to get the most out of our talent.

I guess it comes down to this: I just don't see Lynch as a 3-4 DE. He's too talented as a pass rusher to be asked to bulk up and control a lane.

Here's hoping we see a lot more 4-3 looks after we get out to an early lead.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I just want to point out that most 3-4 base teams do frequently use 4-man lines in passing situations, but those packages are generally "sub" packages and feature 5 or 6 DB's. It is pretty rare that you would see a 3-4 team play "4-3" (a base package).

And generally 3-4 linemen's primary duty is to eat blockers and free the linebackers to make plays (especially NTs, which is what makes a NT so much different that a 4-3 DT), but that isn't always the case. Every 3-4 isn't the same - its just the way that the defense is lined up to start the play. What happens after the snap varies from system to system. For instance, when Wade Philips coached the Bills (as DC and later as HC), Bruce Smith was a sack machine from the 3-4 DE spot. A creative defensive coach will get his players in position to do what they do best within the context of the defense. For Lynch, that means getting after the QB. I am not an expert on Diaco's system, but I'm willing to bet that Lynch will be asked to get after the QB however he is deployed in the defense.

 

[Zibby32]

Since when do 3-4 DE's not rush the passer? So on passing downs they just sit there and pound sand? Is this a real concern here? We are worried that Lynch will become to big and too athletic? Is this real life?

let me ask you a few questions...Do you know why Defensive Coordinators blitz? Whats the basic premise for sending 6 Dmen against 5 blockers?

Answers to the above:

- Defensive Coordinators hate blitzing, its stupid. Why send extra guys when you expose yourself to the big play. Blitzing is risky and if done incorrectly can be damaging.

-You bring 6 guys because you cant get to the QB with 3,4, or 5 guys. Letting the QB sit back and pick is horrifying to even the best secondarys.

If you are able to get to the QB without blitzing your in DC Heaven. Send 3 guys and drop 8? hmm sure ask Tom Brady how that went in the Super Bowl!

What makes athletes like Lynch so valueable is that they can do it all. Big enough to stop the run, but skilled/fast enough to get to the QB.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I don't think the issue is whether the linemen rush the passer in a 3-4, but rather how they rush the passer. Ends in a 3-4 tend to be more interior rushers, as opposed to 4-3 Ends that come off the edge. I basically agree with you that this shouldn't be too much of a concern. As I said above, I anticipate the they will use Aaron in a way that best utilizes his skill set, and with his speed and athleticism they will find a way to get him rushing off the edge, especially when they expect pass, even if he is playing 3-4 end. It will just require a slight alteration of the scheme. I don't think we need to worry about Aaron's skills being wasted because we play a 3-4, but I also don't think we'll see them switch defenses (to a 4-3), as someone suggested.

 

[Riddickulous]

He and Tuitt will be KLM and Ethan Johnson. He's going to be a freak. He was 6'6 245 when he was being recruited and he's put on 10 lbs as of the spring game. He's going to grow.

And a lot.

I'm pretty certain that 3-4 D-linemen are never trying to penetrate. Their primary responsibilities are to (1) control their gaps; and (2) keep the O-linemen off their LBs, thereby giving the LBs freedom to run to the ball. If they penetrate, their LBs start getting blocked by O-linemen, and the opposing RB can rip off big chunks of yardage.

Maybe that changes if they read pass instead of run, but I doubt it. It's just a complete change of philosophy for a 3-4 D-linemen to penetrate.

Pretty much this, although Aaron Lynch's role will probably be relegated to "pass rush specialist" this year.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

First, apologies for highjacking the Niklas thread, and thanks to the incomparable Terrence Tate who transferred this over here.

Since when do 3-4 DE's not rush the passer? So on passing downs they just sit there and pound sand? Is this a real concern here? We are worried that Lynch will become to big and too athletic? Is this real life?

let me ask you a few questions...Do you know why Defensive Coordinators blitz? Whats the basic premise for sending 6 Dmen against 5 blockers?

Answers to the above:

- Defensive Coordinators hate blitzing, its stupid. Why send extra guys when you expose yourself to the big play. Blitzing is risky and if done incorrectly can be damaging.

-You bring 6 guys because you cant get to the QB with 3,4, or 5 guys. Letting the QB sit back and pick is horrifying to even the best secondarys.

If you are able to get to the QB without blitzing your in DC Heaven. Send 3 guys and drop 8? hmm sure ask Tom Brady how that went in the Super Bowl!

What makes athletes like Lynch so valueable is that they can do it all. Big enough to stop the run, but skilled/fast enough to get to the QB.

I'm sorry if my concern struck you as pointless.

I've read plenty of articles on the 3-4 which basically say that 3-4 D-linemen do the dirty work; they occupy blockers, control lanes, and allow their LBs to rack up the gaudy stats like Tackles for Loss and Sacks.

I don't know enough about this subject to authoritatively discuss rules and exceptions for 3-4 DEs. It just seems to me that Lynch is a prototypical 4-3 Right DE who should be penetrating into the backfield on every play. As a 3-4 DE, he won't be able to do that, and might have to sacrifice some speed in order to put on the necessary bulk to play the position correctly.

I hope I'm wrong, and I'm certainly open to correction. If Lynch can be both a pass rushing bad a$$ and a starting DE in our base 3-4 look, I'll be ecstatic. But nothing you've written thus far, Zibby, has resolved my doubts that Lynch's natural talents are at odds with the responsibilities of a 3-4 DE.

 

[TerryTate]

First, apologies for highjacking the Niklas thread, and thanks to the mod (NDinLA?) who transferred this over here.

You're welcome

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You're welcome

Fixed!

 

[DaBLKIrishman]

I'm pretty certain that 3-4 D-linemen are never trying to penetrate. Their primary responsibilities are to (1) control their gaps; and (2) keep the O-linemen off their LBs, thereby giving the LBs freedom to run to the ball. If they penetrate, their LBs start getting blocked by O-linemen, and the opposing RB can rip off big chunks of yardage.

Maybe that changes if they read pass instead of run, but I doubt it. It's just a complete change of philosophy for a 3-4 D-linemen to penetrate.

In any system the number 1 job of the defensive line is create a new line of scrimmage and you do that by penetrating no more than 2 yards deep. I've never heard a coach tell a d-lineman not to penetrate because that would be telling him not to fire off the ball. I agree that in a 3-4 defense it is imperative for the interior lineman to occupy blockers and "2-gap" so that the lbs are free to make plays but you do that by getting off the ball and making "3 point contact" and knocking them back to create a new line of scrimmage.

 

[Zibby32]

I hope I'm wrong, and I'm certainly open to correction. If Lynch can be both a pass rushing bad a$$ and a starting DE in our base 3-4 look, I'll be ecstatic. But nothing you've written thus far, Zibby, has resolved my doubts that Lynch's natural talents are at odds with the responsibilities of a 3-4 DE.

If Lynch puts on the correct weight, he will be a faster version of DaQuan Bowers. Your right, what a waste of talent.

 

[adsnorri]

He seemed to do pretty well in a simple defense in the blue and gold game against starters. I have a feeling that you could put this kid at safety and he would still lead the team in sacks. We have some play makers coming to town...a couple already here!

 

[ryno 24]

There are two types of DE's in the system. The DE on the Cat backers side would be more of the gap control side. Since the Cat is similar to a DE you have basically two DEs this is the type of player like Tuitt who is strong and can play DT. The other side is closer to a 4-3 end who rushes the passer. The Dog linebacker is more of a normal linebacker Lynch will be more of a normal DE he will not be on the same side as Ishaq and will be able to rushe passer. He will be utilized

 

[rtrn2glory]

something that also needs to be considered is how much our defense tends to be on the field with the level of up tempo offense coach Kelly likes to run. Our 3 deep defensive personnel is going to be utilized and get a lot of reps across the board giving them all ample opportunties to showcase their talents.

plus i may be in the minority here, but it wouldn't surprise me to see Lynch in a lot of early 1st and 2nd downs. He caused a lot of trouble in the spring game with his ability to shoot across O linemen to other gaps and use his speed to penetrate and cause problems in the backfield...moral of the story i think he's going to be fine.

 

[BestBIrish47]

Penetration is always good its when they overpenetrate it becomes a liability and opens up lanes. In passing situations you want penetration so that the QB can't step up in the pocket and have to run right into your outside pass rush.

That is what she said

 

[Zibby32]

He is going to be a GREAT player....To think that he will be underutilized or "wasted" is wrong. These are the type of players necessary to regain the glory of yester-year.

Life is not all about sacks and QB knockdowns. you have to actually "do work" do achieve.

 

[Rocket89]

I think it's legitimate to have some concerns right now. On the face of it, Lynch doesn't particularly fit our 3-4 system perfectly.

However, I think we should also expect that he's going to be more of a playmaker that doesn't simply rush the passer all the time. In other words, after his freshman season (in which we will probably see a lot of him strictly coming off the edge or going after the quarterback) he's going to be making plays in stopping the run, eating up blockers, and getting out in space at times and being disruptive.

I think we see Johnson and KLM and we like that they are good at taking on blockers, but neither have good/great pass rushing skills, at least that we've seen. Lynch seems like the kind of talent that is going to be bringing both facets to the table and that is a great thing to think about right now.

I think we also look at EJ and KLM and with them both at or close to 300 pounds and think all of our defensive linemen are going to be that size. I would suggest the coaching staff realizes their limitations as pass rushers (EJ more than KLM) and thought it wise to bulk them up as much as possible without losing speed, so they are effective at controlling their gaps.

But I don't think that means Lynch and other DE's we recruit in the future are going to be like that. In fact, I'd venture to say the coaching staff would prefer having a set of big space eating defensive ends, and another set of more athletic/pass rushing defensive ends. That gives them a ton of flexibility and is basically what has us drooling right now, right? So, we'll probably see Tuitt and possibly Sprigmann be the ones who are inching closer to 285-290 as youngsters, while Lynch and possibly Niklas are going to be 265-270 as youngsters, but likely never going over 280 or 285.

You see a lot of elite NFL Defensive End's around 270, so I would say since we run a 3-4 and want a little more bulk with our players at that position, but we won't see Lynch get too big. He's already gained 15 pounds and is at 260, I would say there's a good chance he never gets over 275 (which is the weight Justin Tuck plays at in the NFL) in his time at Notre Dame. I know a lot of people think he's skinny, but I think he's pretty well filled out already for someone his age. I also think that perception has to do with, again, seeing our older DE's who are just mammoth's right now.

So, valid concerns, but I think Lynch stays relatively "light" in comparison to EJ and KLM but brings so much playmaking ability to the table that he will be a force and able to play every down after his freshman year.

 

[Old Man Mike]

To give an intuitive shout out to one of our elder statesmen, I have a gut-feeling that KLM's natural athleticism is going to bust out big for us also this year. The youngsters probably won't be able to take too much of his time on the field, so Diaco is going to have to install a liberal rotation in the D-line.

We have three-deep players there [EJ/Cwynar/KLM; Tuitt/Nix/Lynch; Schwenke/Hafis/Niklas --- and that's just the minimum of it.] and it's almost TOO much to organize. You wonder if Diaco will decide to go "unending waves" of fresh bodies [sort of like hockey], or more traditional "stick with your best units" ?? If it's "stick with your best", then who are the top six?? And, does it get to be like Quarterback with "special packages"?? Or does that require too much guessing on Diaco's part??

Nice to be loaded, but does our D-line end up like some school like USC with great players not playing much?? Diaco is a young dynamic mind [with Kelly's green light to do so], so maybe he can handle the "unending waves" scenario or the multiple packages one. It's going to be interesting.

 

[anarin]

Very next play....

 

[Zibby32]

Every defense has personnel packages. It all depends on how much the players can absorb Diaco's playbook.

I learned as a player then employed as a coach:

"if you dont know the plays, ur not stepping on the field"

That goes for young guys the all the way through to the veterans. You wonder why certain players dont play, (DW, for one) and often times the answer is simple. Knowledge is power.

The more packages Diaco can employ the better this defense will be. Keep in mind this is year two under Kelly's regime. It is still fresh for just about everyone.