'23 FL DE Keon Keeley (Prodigal Son)

[Dale]

As far as what I want to see or to the first bolded. I don't think it requires stringing guys a long at all. I'm offering guys, recruiting them, and taking commitments from dudes that can play when their decisions come up. Doing so up to a larger number per position group if I feel that some of those prospects are still actively looking elsewhere or if we have a huge need for numbers. Each decision, position group, and recruitment requires nuance.

For example, the positional need for S's is far greater than that of TE's. Every position group wants talent. Some also need numbers. I've been saying for months that I'd recruit 6+ DB's this cycle because of last cycle and the Bowen recruitment. Same goes for OL. We've been recruiting the OL so well that I'd easily give up an OL spot for a 3rd DE to ensure that if Keeley bounces we got in on the guy we wanted and landed 2.

Not to be that guy but no hindsight here. I said the Dante Moore recruitment was unnecessary risk a long long time ago. Been talking about extra DB's literally the entire cycle. Finally we got 1. I wanted them to move on Mickens much earlier.

The perfect balance of pushing for elite recruits while making prudent roster management decisions is taking more prospects at the "at risk" position groups or with the "at risk" recruitments.

Like I said, nuance is needed but if we’re being honest, it hasn’t been the hard to spot. Do we really have to go into the differences between CJ Williams and Amorion Walker versus Jaylon Sneed? Or, Keon Keeley versus Traore?

Keon has been showing up on OSU flip articles for months. He’s been flirting with Bama since January. He’s one of two commits that are doing this. Meanwhile Adon Shuler has offers from UGA and Bama and hasn’t visited either. Not every good prospect is going to require this. And not every position group will require this.

This is all nice and tightened up with “nuance” but you’re judging these situations in hindsight still. The simplest answer is to look around and see what all the other elites do, every other elite program has decommitments/losses they aren’t 100% prepared for. It’d imagine there’s a reason for that. To employ the amount of backup recruiting asked you’d 1000% be stringing prospects along. No other way about it. You also just hit on QB, DE, CB and S as positions to shift priority to. We know WR belongs there too. People were freaked out about OL at times in Spring. That’s over half the position groups. All I’m saying otherwise we’re going in circles is it seems easy to say these things but I think this “nuance” is 100x more complicated and delicate and ever changing than given credit for.

 

[arahop]

That is fair, the Athletic had an NIL article awhile back that discussed NIL deals that kids were getting offered with the superstars around ~$1M and in the mid 6 figures. If Keon secures that, and has comparable on field success he would have at ND then the extra $$$ paid in year 0 are worth it to take that NIL deal.

I think the only way that an ND pitch works financially is if the NIL deal has a lot of out-clauses for the booster, and at that point the value of an ND degree would outweigh the other schools.

Get the delta within $300-400K and I think the NIL gap is materially closed. Anything greater and the kid should take the money. Have a wall street firm set up a "internship" program that promises a 3 year post grad position paying $150K per year upon graduation and you can pitch that to the academically focused kids. The job experience + cash would worth >>$1M and set the kid up for life, in addition to the ND degree.

This is what's it's going to take.

I have no idea whether this is something going on, but this is a great idea and 100% what ND should be doing given the alumni presence in the financial world.

Agreed

Why do you think Saban went off on A&M? Because he was meeting with two DL that grew up being diehard Bama fans but told him they were going elsewhere because they were offered $$. Now, I do know that Bama meets with every recruit and shows them what they could make from NIL if they came to Bama. Why do you think Saban put out that last year Bama players made in excess of $3 mil from NIL. There’s always a reason for what he says in public. Always.
Instead of crying about the POTENTIAL of losing Keeley maybe ND should ask themselves why their message may not be effective. They of all universities has the ability to set up endless NIL opportunities for their players… so much so that other schools would struggle to compete. Instead of offering up excuses, find a better way. It shouldn’t be hard. It’s Notre Dame. Sorry… rant over.

TTown I see it the same. ND will create imaginary "moral high ground" rules where they don't exist because a lot ND fans seem to love to have a reason to blame it on something. NIL, academics, "ND kid". I'm for getting in the game but instead ND is content with trying to drive down a non existent middle of the road. There's a fork in the road and ND is trying to go down the middle one where it doesn't exist. It's okay thoughz because ND is doing it the "right way". What rules are established and who's the enforcer? Oh yeah the NCAA. Fellas this is the Wild West and ND is content staying home watching on the sidelines. I'm really disappointedb that they will lose a recruit of his caliber for 250k a year most likely. Mind boggling to me. I know I'm in the minority but these kids would be insane to not accept that kind of Money in a 4 year period. If I had a kid and my son was offered that, Adios. Trade and invest that into 5-10 mil in 10-15 years. Retire in your prime.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Also, you're going to act like they can't beat ND in a straight up recruiting battle?

It's not like this is a lesser school, it's fucking Bama.

He's held a Bama offer for almost a year now. He's visited them before.

What exactly has changed over the past few weeks?

You're right that it's fucking Bama, and while they're the most successful program in CFB over the past decade, they also have a history of taking a baseball bat to the rulebook over and over again.

Bama may not be able to flip Keeley simply with money alone, but it definitely sweetens the pot and makes the decision a bit easier. And it's painfully naive to think Bama is above this kind of stuff.

 

[INLaw]

Their used to be a list (but I can’t easily google find it at the moment) of the most sanctioned schools in NCAA, and bama and Auburn seemed to be always fighting it out for top billing. Also we were always much higher than expected due to our catholic guilt and need to self report anytime someone farted funny.

 

[GATTACA!]

He's held a Bama offer for almost a year now. He's visited them before.

What exactly has changed over the past few weeks?

You're right that it's fucking Bama, and while they're the most successful program in CFB over the past decade, they also have a history of taking a baseball bat to the rulebook over and over again.

Bama may not be able to flip Keeley simply with money alone, but it definitely sweetens the pot and makes the decision a bit easier. And it's painfully naive to think Bama is above this kind of stuff.

They aren’t breaking the rules because there aren’t really any rules to be broken yet. Are they breaking the spirit of the rules? I guess you could argue that, but anyone who thinks A&M, Bama, LSU, Texas, Florida,Tennessee, and all the other schools that a buying players with P4P will see ANY punishment please DM me because I have a bridge for sale.

Even if the NCAA tries to put a cap on this somehow there will be no punishments for past infractions because the rules are incredibly vague and by the time these loopholes are closed half the P5 teams will have broken them in some fashion.

ND needs to get off their high horse, pay these kids what they’re worth, and actually lead the charge and not play from behind.

 

[arndtjc]

New ‘23 Edge offer going out makes it feel like this is over over. Pain.

 

[ColinKSU]

TTown I see it the same. ND will create imaginary "moral high ground" rules where they don't exist because a lot ND fans seem to love to have a reason to blame it on something. NIL, academics, "ND kid". I'm for getting in the game but instead ND is content with trying to drive down a non existent middle of the road. There's a fork in the road and ND is trying to go down the middle one where it doesn't exist. It's okay thoughz because ND is doing it the "right way". What rules are established and who's the enforcer? Oh yeah the NCAA. Fellas this the Wild West and ND is content staying home watching on the sidelines. I'm really disappointedbt that hey will lose a recruit of his caliber for 250k a year most likely. Mind boggling to me. I know I'm in the minority but these kids would be insane to not accept that kind of Money in a 4 year period. If I had a kid and my son was offered that, Adios. Trade and invest that into 5-10 mil in 10-15 years. Retire in your prime.

That drives me absolutely crazy about some Notre Dame fans. They'd rather lose if it means they aren't breaking laws THAT DON'T EXIST.

Hope you've had fun knowing you're "doing it the right way" while losing the best players ND could have brought in in *years* as I'm just over here screaming into the infinite void.

 

[Crazy Balki]

They aren’t breaking the rules because there aren’t really any rules to be broken yet. Are they breaking the spirit of the rules? I guess you could argue that, but anyone who thinks A&M, Bama, LSU, Texas, Florida,Tennessee, and all the other schools that a buying players with P4P will see ANY punishment please DM me because I have a bridge for sale.

Even if the NCAA tries to put a cap on this somehow there will be no punishments for past infractions because the rules are incredibly vague and by the time these loopholes are closed half the P5 teams will have broken them in some fashion.

ND needs to get off their high horse, pay these kids what they’re worth, and actually lead the charge and not play from behind.

You seem to be misconstruing the idea that there aren't any rules to be broken and that there is no enforcement of the rules.

There are rules. You can't simply promise big P4P deals as inducements to get players to commit to your school and I've yet to hear how any of these deals link back to any sort of Name, Image or Likeness connection. They're for currently enrolled players to maximize their name, image or likeness. They're not an incentive for them to go to A school over B school.

It's not that there aren't any rules. It's that there are, but nobody cares because there's pretty much no repercussions for bending them. Nobody cares...except ND, because we persist on playing the game the way it was intended, instead of how it's actually being played.

ND is once again paying the price of being the clean swinger going up against the McGuire's, Palmeiro's and Bonds' of the sport.

 

[INLaw]

There are 131 fbs schools most aren’t actively engaged in the p4p. Just the majority of the sec. Future sec members of the big 12 and a portion of the pac 12… also miami. Otherwise seems like most of the ACC and B1G are holding the line with us

 

[Crazy Balki]

That drives me absolutely crazy about some Notre Dame fans. They'd rather lose if it means they aren't breaking laws THAT DON'T EXIST.

Hope you've had fun knowing you're "doing it the right way" while losing the best players ND could have brought in in *years* as I'm just over here screaming into the infinite void.

Except this isn't fans, it's Notre Dame.

And again, it's not that these rules don't exist. THEY EXIST.

But no major CFB power gives a crap that they do, because who's going to stop them? The NCAA is a powerless husk of an entity and won't touch any major program with a 20 foot pole, much less sanctions.

But ND insists that it does NIL the way the rule was intended. And I can't blame some fans for thinking the same.

The ND fan in me wants ND to win obviously, but the CFB fan in me finds the idea of having to pimp out millions of dollars to 17 year olds for them to play football absolutely disgusting and should be shamed. It's very much helping drive fan interest in the sport down.

 

[INLaw]

The real correlation is between always full pay to play via bagmen cheats and them just flaunting it. Everybody else is trying to work with in what remains of rules.

 

[jprue24]

He's held a Bama offer for almost a year now. He's visited them before.

What exactly has changed over the past few weeks?

You're right that it's fucking Bama, and while they're the most successful program in CFB over the past decade, they also have a history of taking a baseball bat to the rulebook over and over again.

Bama may not be able to flip Keeley simply with money alone, but it definitely sweetens the pot and makes the decision a bit easier. And it's painfully naive to think Bama is above this kind of stuff.

I guess you're right, Bama has nothing but money to offer recruits.

 

[stlnd01]

There are 131 fbs schools most aren’t actively engaged in the p4p. Just the majority of the sec. Future sec members of the big 12 and a portion of the pac 12… also miami. Otherwise seems like most of the ACC and B1G are holding the line with us

Eh. When Ohio State and Clemson start losing out on recruits the way we are, and USC tires of schools like A&M stealing their quarterback and Florida State wants to matter again, and then Penn State and Michigan and UNC and Washington all decide they need to keep up...

 

[INLaw]

Eh. When Ohio State and Clemson start losing out on recruits the way we are, and USC tires of schools like A&M stealing their quarterback and Florida State wants to matter again, and then Penn State and Michigan and UNC and Washington all decide they need to keep up...

I am not saying they wont. Ohio State already is losing recruits and frustrated. I expect them to be the first B1G to go full pay. USC was an early money pay to play but is critically fucking it up by not following through on payment. Florida State have seen no signs of it on a large scale nor Penn State. Clemson probably is but always laundered it through their cult church thingy and aren’t being bold about it because it is an arms race they are ill prepared for.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I guess you're right, Bama has nothing but money to offer recruits.

You seemed to have missed the point.

Alabama can offer kids a great football opportunity, which ND can as well. But Alabama is also willing to push the P4P angle, which ND is not.

If money wasn't a factor and Keon simply wanted Bama, why flip now? He's held an offer for almost a year. He's held that through visits. But now, the family is clearly more involved than ever, and what reason would they have to suddenly turn on everything? They were all-ND for over a year and suddenly, now they're pushing things towards Bama? And money has nothing to do with that?

 

[arahop]

You seem to be misconstruing the idea that there aren't any rules to be broken and that there is no enforcement of the rules.

There are rules. You can't simply promise big P4P deals as inducements to get players to commit to your school and I've yet to hear how any of these deals link back to any sort of Name, Image or Likeness connection. They're for currently enrolled players to maximize their name, image or likeness. They're not an incentive for them to go to A school over B school.

It's not that there aren't any rules. It's that there are, but nobody cares because there's pretty much no repercussions for bending them. Nobody cares...except ND, because we persist on playing the game the way it was intended, instead of how it's actually being played.

ND is once again paying the price of being the clean swinger going up against the McGuire's, Palmeiro's and Bonds' of the sport.

So the implied certainty here is Notre Dame will NEVER win another championship in Football, end of story. Without the Dante Moore's, without the Keon Keeley's and every other top 10 player. As long as sports have existed, straight up cheating, creating an edge, And finding ways around rules have been involved. These NIL rules currently aren't enforceable and won't be in retro.

ND allowed players that would have zero chance to get in nowadays. In 88 they could go to Holy Cross. Ghosts of Monk Malloy and the bullshit moral high ground still keeping this program down 30 fucking years later. Tired of it. This is it then. This is the best ND can do. We aren't getting a better recruiter than Marcus Freeman. Thanks admin, thanks BOT. Let's revert to the days when old white hairs told us all to sit down for screaming and standing up during the game, Circa pre Kelly days.

This isn't just about Keeley, it's not just about Dante Moore, it's the fact that Notre Dame, BOT, administration, higher ups have held this program down for going on 40 years. They will hold it down forever. Join the Ivy league then and stop the slow death of Notre Dame football. BK had it right. I hope BK wins a Natty to prove the fucking point. I don't think there is person on this board that can say with a straight face that they believe they will see another National Championship again. I wanted to believe with this class,. I thought that maybe, just maybe, The higher ups were going to use the NIL to Notre Dame's outright advantage. Nope, Fuck em

 

[jprue24]

You seemed to have missed the point.

Alabama can offer kids a great football opportunity, which ND can as well. But Alabama is also willing to push the P4P angle, which ND is not.

If money wasn't a factor and Keon simply wanted Bama, why flip now? He's held an offer for almost a year. He's held that through visits. But now, the family is clearly more involved than ever, and what reason would they have to suddenly turn on everything? They were all-ND for over a year and suddenly, now they're pushing things towards Bama? And money has nothing to do with that?

No, I got your point. I just don't think it's a certainty that this is all about the promise of NIL money the moment he signs (or his football season is over).

Maybe he really wants to take officials and ND asked him to publicly back off his verbal. Maybe as he experienced Bama more, he changed his mind about what he believes is best for him. Maybe it started with having no intention of backing off his verbal but the more he thought it over, the more it made sense to decommit as soon as he was sure.

If he was going to a school like say, Washington or Oregon, I'd be right there with you about money driving the decision. I'm just not convinced that there is no other reasons that he would flip to Bama. They are about to produce an edge that will be considered for the top pick in the draft.

 

[ACamp1900]

I guess you're right, Bama has nothing but money to offer recruits.

Glad we agree

 

[Crazy Balki]

No, I got your point. I just don't think it's a certainty that this is all about the promise of NIL money the moment he signs (or his football season is over).

Maybe he really wants to take officials and ND asked him to publicly back off his verbal. Maybe as he experienced Bama more, he changed his mind about what he believes is best for him. Maybe it started with having no intention of backing off his verbal but the more he thought it over, the more it made sense to decommit as soon as he was sure.

If he was going to a school like say, Washington or Oregon, I'd be right there with you about money driving the decision. I'm just not convinced that there is no other reasons that he would flip to Bama. They are about to produce an edge that will be considered for the top pick in the draft.

Yeah, I'm not buying it.

I'm sure Alabama has a lot to offer that Keeley probably likes, and I'm not saying he's going there solely because of the money, but everything that's coming out surrounding Keeley's recruitment just reeks of his family looking around for big money NIL. It's pretty evident that while the guaranteed NIL money isn't the only factor, it's the one that is hurting ND the most. This is being reciprocated by several people within ND's inner circle. Mike Frank at ISD is basically re-iterating that amidst all this that ND is going to be hindered significantly by NIL, implying that this is a direct issue re: Keeley.

Let's not pretend like Alabama is above doling out big NIL deals, just because Nick Saban said he felt it was hurting the sport. Saban has always been negative about certain developments of the sport and has simultaneously been quick to adopt them to his benefit. And again, it's Alabama. They essentially wrote the book on working around the rules. Just because they're top dog doesn't change that. If anything, what happened with A&M has forced the Bama collectives/boosters to kick it into overdrive to preserve their spot at the top.

 

[arahop]

No, I got your point. I just don't think it's a certainty that this is all about the promise of NIL money the moment he signs (or his football season is over).

Maybe he really wants to take officials and ND asked him to publicly back off his verbal. Maybe as he experienced Bama more, he changed his mind about what he believes is best for him. Maybe it started with having no intention of backing off his verbal but the more he thought it over, the more it made sense to decommit as soon as he was sure.

If he was going to a school like say, Washington or Oregon, I'd be right there with you about money driving the decision. I'm just not convinced that there is no other reasons that he would flip to Bama. They are about to produce an edge that will be considered for the top pick in the draft.

His NIL deal is sweeter mom/Uncle agent came in and made a smart business decision. So that potential one first round edge rusher that Alabama is about to produce under Saban for the first time in his 15+ years tips the scales then? It's the upfront money. Hope he stays healthy and pans out.

Pro's at Bama
NIL 1 Mil over 4 years, speculative but I hope it's at least that otherwise it's a bad financial decision based off of degree value and network ND had to offer . One bad injury and a little bad luck the most high risk sport for injury and man, life comes at you quick. Before you know it, you look back at life and wonder what would have been if you took that right turn instead of that left turn.
Pros
Will most likely win a Natty. Won't have to attend class or do academics pretty much at all. Way hotter College girls

Cons,
That upfront money goes really quick, especially after Uncle agent takes a cut. Mom gets 300-500 house, 50-100k car that will be nearly worthless in 10 years.
Has to play games and live around a bunch of hillsbills.
Career ending injury, or busts, Alabama degree won't be worth much. A Million ain't what it used to be. Most 18-22 year olds could easily piss away that money with not very much to show for I'm for ND outspending for the record outspending Bama. ND money and network could put a end to an arms race. They won't do it, well because they have been behind the times since circa 1993, when an apparent moral high ground line was drawn By the way, they will happily Charge 700$ for 2 tickets to the Clemson game to help fund the "Mission". That's reasonable. I Hope all goes well for the kid.

 

[TNUtoNotreDame]

Worst part is this gives credence to why Kelly left. ND does not, and will not compete in this environment. Gonna be a painful few years.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Worst part is this gives credence to why Kelly left. ND does not, and will not compete in this environment. Gonna be a painful few years.

"painful few years"
Even if Keeley and Bowen both leave, this class will still be better than what Kelly has ever done - AND that is with the NIL disadvantage.
Kelly would have a 12-15 ranked class right now imo

The only thing this gives credence to is, Kelly didn't want to have to work hard and overcome the odds....

 

[Dale]

Worst part is this gives credence to why Kelly left. ND does not, and will not compete in this environment. Gonna be a painful few years.

Eh. It’s still Alabama in the end. I’m sure BK will lose a recruit to Alabama too. There is no place you can go that isn’t inevitable.

 

[du Lac]

"painful few years"
Even if Keeley and Bowen both leave, this class will still be better than what Kelly has ever done - AND that is with the NIL disadvantage.
Kelly would have a 12-15 ranked class right now imo

The only thing this gives credence to is, Kelly didn't want to have to work hard and overcome the odds....

1 point better than last year is not significant. Also, 2013 was 280, so this is not technically true unless ND gets Love. Even then, it's not significantly better than 2022 and certainly not significantly better than 2013. Without Love, BK still has the better recruiting class from 2013, if we are assuming Keeley and Bowen are out.

If we are making the point of consistently better recruiting, I can get on board with that. BK never had back to back 275+ that I am aware of, but I have not looked to verify. I can agree that if we are 275+ this year and 275+ next year, we should have a talented team as that would be 3 in a row. Coach them up and they have a shot. Talented enough to beat Bama? I doubt it, but would probably be more talented than we were under BK. If CJ is Trevor Lawrence, we have a chance.

 

[TNUtoNotreDame]

"painful few years"
Even if Keeley and Bowen both leave, this class will still be better than what Kelly has ever done - AND that is with the NIL disadvantage.
Kelly would have a 12-15 ranked class right now imo

The only thing this gives credence to is, Kelly didn't want to have to work hard and overcome the odds....

Losing both top recruits? No it won't be the best class. You assume that will be it. ND is not playing the game.

This is not on Freeman, this is an ND institutional issue. Some I support, but we will get hammered.

I bet we finish bottom half of the top ten. Then you will come back and say what an amazing job happened because of the hurdles.

Hence, the incoming pain. Recruiting will maintain it's 10-15 range and get our ass's kicked by the big teams. We are second tier by choice.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Worst part is this gives credence to why Kelly left. ND does not, and will not compete in this environment. Gonna be a painful few years.

Meh, we've seen this movie before going back to Weis. For every guy that falls off with a flip, ND gets one in return.

You support this university's football program, you can all that comes with it. Freeman has to develop first round talent and prove it to five star recruits that this is the way.

 

[du Lac]

ND needs to make up for their lack of NIL with more transfers like Joseph. We should be able to dominate the academic programs with transfer portal. No reason we should not be attempting to steel all the elite talent from Stanford, NU, Duke, and Vandy. Those kids value their degree prestige as they've put in the work.

 

[Dale]

2021: 9th - 89.7
2020: 18th - 90.7
2019: 15th - 90.6
2018 - 10th - 90.1
2017 - 10th - 89.4
2016 - 15th - 89.0
2015 - 13th - 90.5
2014 - 11th - 89.3
2013 - 5th - 92.3
2012 - 17th - 91.2
2011 - 9th - 90.0
2010 - 15th - 88.4

2022 (with Freeman): 7th - 91.8
2023 (current without Bowen & Keeley) - 92.4

 

[AKRowdy]

Omg. You guys calm down. There is more to life than ND football. I keep seeing the same people spew the same sh¡t the world is ending, etc. it’s Freeman’s first class, still a stellar class. If he produces wins the talent will come. Everyone settle down. Please for the love of god wait for an official announcement.

 

[Dale]

I never get citing wanting a Top 5 or we have a Top 10 class when it’s very volume dependent of not only your class but others classes. Who cares if we’re 9th and the 8th team signed 4 more guys? Even with decommitments, ND is on average bringing in more talented players per the recruiting rankings under Freeman. That’s undeniable.