2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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irishfan

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What do people think of Trump's chances? I know he under-performed, but he's still way up in New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. I don't think he's going anywhere, but most articles out there today seem to imply that his campaign took a huge hit.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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Clinton: 1.56‰? I can work with that...

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drayer54

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could you explain why it's not a conservative state? Are the cities in Iowa quite liberal and its the rural areas that are more conservative?

The rural areas are very socially conservative, which is why we have picked Huck-Santorum-Cruz in a row. Iowans usually make the candidate earn it and reward face time, which is why Ricky Santorum had success. Cruz rode the socially conservative wave again. However, the populated areas were big for Rubio and Bernie. The Iowa City and Ames area were Bernie havens (free college- who'da thunk it?), but they usually turn up quite liberal. The state is a true swing state and usually goes with the winner in the general election.

The state is still very socially conservative for the GOP though, less and less as people... well die. However, the state is alot less demographically and ideologically simple as people on the coasts generally consider us to be. I would argue that the close three way split between trump-rubio-cruz was a good way for the GOP to sort out it's representatives from the three wings of the party (Crazy/Sane/Jesus).
 

RDU Irish

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Our precinct had hoped to get 125% of last cycle and we blew that out of the water. People were filing in way late. The only campaigns that appeared organized with their presenters were Fiorina, Cruz, and Rubio. The Trump and Rand Paul people were just going off the cuff and it was kind of funny/terrible.

I was hoping that the Trump precinct leader would get up and use his time to insult the other precinct leaders, but it didn't happen. In the end, I think the candidate of my choice got enough momentum to have a big night and will hopefully gain traction as the Jeb/Christie/Kasich wing gets out.


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Cool stuff - interesting you show frustration with the inexperienced folks but that is called expanding the base, IMO.

Do you think Jeb/Christie/Kasich supporters consolidate to the last standing? That would push 10% and command some respect where individually they are screwed. If it doesn't happen soon they cannibalize each other.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't know about all of that. Rubio as the establishment candidate is kind of absurd and only makes sense when juxtaposed with with Cruz, Tump, Carson, and Paul. Rubio is a Tea Party conservative and I think the Trumpian attack that he's too "establishment" or the Cruzian attack that he's too moderate are both absurd.

This gets back to our argument over whether there's any real difference between the GOP "Establishment" and Conservatism, Inc. these days. Regardless, I think your position will be quickly disproven in the coming weeks as the Establishment rallies firmly behind Rubio.

He has a grand total of one issue where he's out of line with the base.

You think the Republican base favors starting another war in the Middle East?
 

wizards8507

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What do people think of Trump's chances? I know he under-performed, but he's still way up in New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. I don't think he's going anywhere, but most articles out there today seem to imply that his campaign took a huge hit.
I think he's peaked. He's not winning new supporters. If you're not Trump now, you're never going to be. I think his only shot to go into the convention with the most delegates is if it stays a three-way race the whole way and he's the first of three. I don't see him ever getting to 50%+ support, and there's no chance he comes out of a brokered convention with the nomination.

I roughly figure Cruz will get the Carson, Paul, and Santorum voters. Rubio gets Bush, Fiorina, Kasich, Huckabee, and Christie. Projecting that onto the Iowa results gives you 43% Cruz, 24% Trump, and 33% Rubio. That shifts to Rubio and Trump in the bluer states, which leaves a very tight race.
 

wizards8507

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This gets back to our argument over whether there's any real difference between the GOP "Establishment" and Conservatism, Inc. these days. Regardless, I think your position will be quickly disproven in the coming weeks as the Establishment rallies firmly behind Rubio.
That's what my gut tells me, too. But I don't think they'd be rallying behind Rubio because he's "Establishment." Rather, they just really really hate Cruz and Trump.

I also can't figure out what the hell Jeb has been doing going full negative against Rubio. Jeb's resources would best serve the Establishment by taking out Cruz and/or Trump.

You think the Republican base favors starting another war in the Middle East?
Yes. The Republican base loves war.
 

IrishJayhawk

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That's what my gut tells me, too. But I don't think they'd be rallying behind Rubio because he's "Establishment." Rather, they just really really hate Cruz and Trump.

I also can't figure out what the hell Jeb has been doing going full negative against Rubio. Jeb's resources would best serve the Establishment by taking out Cruz and/or Trump.


Yes. The Republican base loves war.

Agreed.
 

irishfan

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I think he's peaked. He's not winning new supporters. If you're not Trump now, you're never going to be. I think his only shot to go into the convention with the most delegates is if it stays a three-way race the whole way and he's the first of three. I don't see him ever getting to 50%+ support, and there's no chance he comes out of a brokered convention with the nomination.

I roughly figure Cruz will get the Carson, Paul, and Santorum voters. Rubio gets Bush, Fiorina, Kasich, Huckabee, and Christie. Projecting that onto the Iowa results gives you 43% Cruz, 24% Trump, and 33% Rubio. That shifts to Rubio and Trump in the bluer states, which leaves a very tight race.

Those are pretty much my thoughts as well. Part of me thinks Trump has had his fun and wants him to just drop out. Part of me finds him pretty refreshing and is actually curious to see if he can evolve and become a more a serious candidate. I don't think he's quite as crazy as his most famous soundbites would suggest, but he doesn't seem to be moving past the stage of just saying the same 5-6 things over and over again.
 

drayer54

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Cool stuff - interesting you show frustration with the inexperienced folks but that is called expanding the base, IMO.

Do you think Jeb/Christie/Kasich supporters consolidate to the last standing? That would push 10% and command some respect where individually they are screwed. If it doesn't happen soon they cannibalize each other.

I think the money is going to consolidate behind Rubio now. I think the endorsements are going to start now, excluding the SC endorsement he already got last night.

I think the push is going to happen to end their campaigns. I don't know how they justify finishing at 2%, but it is going to be a Ted Cruz win if they don't.
 

Whiskeyjack

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That's what my gut tells me, too. But I don't think they'd be rallying behind Rubio because he's "Establishment." Rather, they just really really hate Cruz and Trump.

I also can't figure out what the hell Jeb has been doing going full negative against Rubio. Jeb's resources would best serve the Establishment by taking out Cruz and/or Trump.

He's attacking Rubio because: (1) Bush is the quintessential GOP Establishment candidate; and (2) Rubio is his closest ideological competitor. That tells you all you need to know about how "anti-Establishment" Rubio is.

Yes. The Republican base loves war.

I'm not so sure. They tend to be patriotic (like the Trumplings), which makes them receptive to the jingoistic bullsh!t of the neocons; but having just wasted $1 trillion+ blowing up the sand in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria with nothing positive to show for it, I think there's a lot more skepticism toward war-mongering than there used to be.
 
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IrishLax

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Painting Rubio as a Bush clone or "establishment" candidate is devoid of logic or reasoning. It's easy to use broad brush strokes with little factual evidence to paint whatever picture you want, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

Rubio is closer to Obama in how he is (potentially) approaching power than he is a member of "political royalty."
 

Whiskeyjack

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Painting Rubio as a Bush clone or "establishment" candidate is devoid of logic or reasoning. It's easy to use broad brush strokes with little factual evidence to paint whatever picture you want, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

Rubio is closer to Obama in how he is (potentially) approaching power than he is a member of "political royalty."

Feel free to describe how his preferred policies are substantively different than Bush's then. Aggressive foreign policy abroad, comprehensive immigration reform at home, and tax cuts for the rich is the same old bullsh!t the GOP has been pushing since Reagan. The only difference with Rubio is that it's being sold by a young guy who checks the right demographic boxes instead of a member of a toxic political dynasty.
 

wizards8507

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I'm not so sure. They tend to be patriotic (like the Trumplings), which makes them receptive to the jingoistic bullsh!t of the neocons; but having just blown $1 trillion+ blowing up the sand in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria with nothing positive to show for it, I think there's a lot more skepticism toward war-mongering than there used to be.
Great, but the only candidate making that argument is Rand Paul. I believe Cruz is also "officially" against the Syrian no-fly zone, but his rhetoric about carpet-bombing indicate he's going to go through the campaign trying to out-hawk the field.
 

IrishJayhawk

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He's attacking Rubio because: (1) Bush is the quintessential GOP Establishment candidate; and (2) Rubio is his closest ideological competitor. That tells you all you need to know about how "anti-Establishment" Rubio is.



I'm not so sure. They tend to be patriotic (like the Trumplings), which makes them receptive to the jingoistic bullsh!t of the neocons; but having just blown $1 trillion+ blowing up the sand in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria with nothing positive to show for it, I think there's a lot more skepticism toward war-mongering than there used to be.

I really hope you're right. But Ted Cruz and his carpet bombing and the number of folks pushing for another ground war has me concerned.
 

mtnd15

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I don't think Christie, Kasich, or Bush will drop until after New Hampshire. Polling suggests they are all much stronger there. Before last night polls even showed Rubio trailing Kasich and Bush and I think they will give it another go to catch fire in a more favorable state. It takes a lot of work to mount a campaign and I imagine its tough to throw that all away because Iowa is already a bad map for you.

The state looks like a Trump rout regardless early so it might not really hurt the establishment if this holds true. However, if Bush, Kasich and Christie all play strong enough or one of them even catches fire to beat Rubio? What happens then? It might clog up Rubio's establishment lane everyone is handing to him currently by default or even challenge it.

Also worth noting that Cruz does not hold nearly the support in New Hampshire at the moment but maybe he'll ride the momentum from Iowa.

RealClearPolitics - RCP Republican Delegate Calculator
 

Whiskeyjack

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Great, but the only candidate making that argument is Rand Paul. I believe Cruz is also "officially" against the Syrian no-fly zone, but his rhetoric about carpet-bombing indicate he's going to go through the campaign trying to out-hawk the field.

Agreed, but we were discussing whether the GOP base wants more war, not the candidates. Aside from Rand Paul, the latter group is hawkish across the board for the simple reason that the donor class supports an aggressive foreign policy (it's good for business).

Rubio's hawkishness is due in no small measure to the fact that he's an Establishment candidate, and GOP elites like Sheldon Adelson won't tolerate anything less.
 

wizards8507

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Wait so what's the matter with comprehensive immigration reform? are you insinuating that our immigration system doesn't need reformation?
"Comprehensive immigration reform," phrased that way, has always been code for amnesty. Immigration doesn't need reformation, we need to enforce the laws that we already have. Step one is securing the border, which doesn't require any new laws.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Wait so what's the matter with comprehensive immigration reform? are you insinuating that our immigration system doesn't need reformation?

That's a code phrase for amnesty while allowing our borders to remain open. Our system definitely needs reforming, but not in that direction. The donor class for both major parties likes the status quo because it provides them with cheap domestic labor, but this policy has been a disaster for immigrants already living here and blue collar natives. The resentment over this issue is a huge driver behind Trump's popularity, and it's easy to see how that resentment can be twisted into a nasty sort of white nationalism. The GOP ought to advocate for reforms that put the interests of the majority of American citizens first; but they're not interested in doing that.
 

GoIrish41

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I think he's peaked. He's not winning new supporters. If you're not Trump now, you're never going to be. I think his only shot to go into the convention with the most delegates is if it stays a three-way race the whole way and he's the first of three. I don't see him ever getting to 50%+ support, and there's no chance he comes out of a brokered convention with the nomination.

I roughly figure Cruz will get the Carson, Paul, and Santorum voters. Rubio gets Bush, Fiorina, Kasich, Huckabee, and Christie. Projecting that onto the Iowa results gives you 43% Cruz, 24% Trump, and 33% Rubio. That shifts to Rubio and Trump in the bluer states, which leaves a very tight race.

Good post. Hard to say if he's peaked yet, but I agree he never makes it to 50% of republican support. His biggest advantage has always been that there were so many candidates peeling off voters and spreading the support out. Egos of the "lesser" candidates will be key to how long this Trump shit show plays out, IMO. How long until Bush, Christie, Fiorina and Kasich finally accept that they are not going to win and step asside for the good of the party?

Bush has the money to go all the way to the convention, but he dies a little more as a legitimate political figure with each passing day, so its hard to say what his pain tolerence will be going forward. I'd think that the writing on the wall is pretty clear with Fiorina, but I can't belive someone with her drawbacks would have run in the first place, and I don't know how well financed she is so it'll be interesting to see how long her charade lasts. Kasich, IMO, remains the most sensible candidate, and I suspect he won't go past NH before he comes to terms with the fact that he is getting no traction. I think Christie won't back out until he absolutely has no other choice, and he'll keep dividing the "establishment" vote through the Super Tuesday primaries.

Supporters of any of those folks will more than likely not be going Trump's way, as all of them have pitched themselves as the anti-Trump to one degree or another in the race so far. I'm not as convinced by Rubio's third place finish in Iowa that he's going to keep making strides -- especially when Trump starts to focus on him more with attacks. It will be interesting to see where the support of those who drop out will fall.

I think you are dead on about Trump not making it if there is a brokered convention. I would think that the same would be true of Cruz, which would seem, at the moment, to indicate that it may be Rubio by default. That, IMO, is the best hope, but that is certainly far from a sure thing at this point.
 

IrishLax

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Feel free to describe how his preferred policies are substantively different than Bush's then. Aggressive foreign policy abroad, comprehensive immigration reform at home, and tax cuts for the rich is the same old bullsh!t the GOP has been pushing since Reagan. The only difference with Rubio is that it's being sold by a young guy who checks the right demographic boxes instead of a member of a toxic political dynasty.

More broad brushes. Rubio's suggested immigration policy is quite diferent from anything implemented under Bush. Has Rubio announced plans to invade two countries, one on trumped up charges? That's news to me.

So the fact that he wants low taxes across the board makes him a Bush clone? Gee wiz, how insightful and accurate by the author...

I recognize that piece for what it is, a thinly-veiled attempt to belittle and discredit Rubio by saying he's the same as a guy that is rather universally reviled.

"A vote for Rubio is a vote for Bush!"
Get those t-shirts on the presses...
 

Black Irish

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I think it's more likely than not that the GOP winds up with either a Cruz/Rubio or Rubio/Cruz ticket going into the general election. If their egos can handle it, they'd be a hell of a force going against Hillary. Cruz can be the hard-nosed brawler and Rubio can be the smooth-talker.
 

wizards8507

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I think it's more likely than not that the GOP winds up with either a Cruz/Rubio or Rubio/Cruz ticket going into the general election. If their egos can handle it, they'd be a hell of a force going against Hillary. Cruz can be the hard-nosed brawler and Rubio can be the smooth-talker.
I think it's most likely that the GOP nominee goes with a female VP. Nikki Haley, Susana Martinez, or Kelly Ayotte.
 

NDVirginia19

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That's a code phrase for amnesty while allowing our borders to remain open. Our system definitely needs reforming, but not in that direction. The donor class for both major parties likes the status quo because it provides them with cheap domestic labor, but this policy has been a disaster for immigrants already living here and blue collar natives. The resentment over this issue is a huge driver behind Trump's popularity, and it's easy to see how that resentment can be twisted into a nasty sort of white nationalism. The GOP ought to advocate for reforms that put the interests of the majority of American citizens first; but they're not interested in doing that.

Okay, which is what Rubio has been saying. We need to make sure the border is secure first and then worry about what to do with the people already here. It isn't really that possible or likely to just kick out millions of people, so have them pay a fine (which is not amnesty) and then start working towards a path to legalization.
 

GoIrish41

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I think it's more likely than not that the GOP winds up with either a Cruz/Rubio or Rubio/Cruz ticket going into the general election. If their egos can handle it, they'd be a hell of a force going against Hillary. Cruz can be the hard-nosed brawler and Rubio can be the smooth-talker.

Those two guys have been going at each other pretty hard in the primaries (the classic GOP mistake) and it would be difficult for either of them to justify the other as a running mate ... not impossible -- Reagan brought Bush Sr. on after the "vodoo economics" attacks, but Hillary would use their public spat during the primaries against them throughout the general election. And, right now, neither of them is going to take a back seat to the other, so the attack resumes of both of them will continue to grow. Any ticket with Cruz on top, more than likely drives down turnout by republicans in the general and makes Hillary the next president (if, as seems likely, she defeats the Bern).
 

IrishLax

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Okay, which is what Rubio has been saying. We need to make sure the border is secure first and then worry about what to do with the people already here. It isn't really that possible or likely to just kick out millions of people, so have them pay a fine (which is not amnesty) and then start working towards a path to legalization.

Yup, and I'm not sure how this is even arguable. The most practical solution is to secure the border (something Congress and the Obama administration have already spent BILLIONS doing [trust me, I worked on the biggest project of them all] and the vast majority of people all over the political spectrum agree is important) and then after you have comprehensive border security, find a way to document and tax all workers (really, taxing the corporations that employ them when all is said and done).
 

Black Irish

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I think it's most likely that the GOP nominee goes with a female VP. Nikki Haley, Susana Martinez, or Kelly Ayotte.

Could be. I just don't know if the female VP gets the GOP candidate as much as a bump as in days past, especially if the VP has little to no national name recognition. After Ferrero and Palin, I think most people will see it as a vote-grabbing ploy, although it can still influence some voters. If Cruz and Rubio can unite their respective base and campaign machinery, you'd have a pretty strong ticket.
 

Black Irish

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Those two guys have been going at each other pretty hard in the primaries (the classic GOP mistake) and it would be difficult for either of them to justify the other as a running mate ... not impossible -- Reagan brought Bush Sr. on after the "vodoo economics" attacks, but Hillary would use their public spat during the primaries against them throughout the general election. And, right now, neither of them is going to take a back seat to the other, so the attack resumes of both of them will continue to grow. Any ticket with Cruz on top, more than likely drives down turnout by republicans in the general and makes Hillary the next president (if, as seems likely, she defeats the Bern).

It would be hard for the two men to kiss and make up, but as the saying goes "politics makes strange bedfellows." Cruz, to me, is the one who could probably best hold his own against Hillary in a head-to-head debate. She can't resist getting provoked and Cruz is pretty damn good at that.
 

RDU Irish

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I really don't understand why it is so hard to give legal residency without citizenship as the easy way to move the debate forward. Why reward illegal behavior with full citizenship and access to benefits therein?
 
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