2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Bluto]

Yes. They are as crazy as the people who deny climate change.

Yep. I have pointed that out to some former colleagues who are anti vaccination and man...they get pretty angry.

 

[wizards8507]

Yes. They are as crazy as the people who deny climate change.

Ten years ago, you would have called it "global warming." Turns out, the crazy people who denied "global warming" were correct, which is why the left had to rebrand it "climate change."

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Ten years ago, you would have called it "global warming." Turns out, the crazy people who denied "global warming" were correct, which is why the left had to rebrand it "climate change."

I'll trust the scientists, not the "left."

 

[connor_in]

Ten years ago, you would have called it "global warming." Turns out, the crazy people who denied "global warming" were correct, which is why the left had to rebrand it "climate change."

Just to be clear, it started as AGW, anthropogenic global warming

 

[IrishBroker]

I'll trust the scientists, not the "left."

I don't think many deny the idea of the climate changing, it's this idea that man is responsible.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Anti-GMO folk are another group on the left that I have serious issues with.

I think maybe there's some merit to the case that major Ag companies can use GMOs to abuse their market power and get higher prices for farmers, but that's what antitrust is for.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't think many deny the idea of the climate changing, it's this idea that man is responsible.

Or, even if man is responsible, that there's a damn thing American politicians can do about it.

 

[IrishinSyria]

And Global Warming is still commonly used in the scientific literature so that argument makes no sense.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=326

 

[wizards8507]

And Global Warming is still commonly used in the scientific literature so that argument makes no sense.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=326

Lmao the first graph on that page is using an 11-year smoothed average and shows, at worst, a one degree swing over 120 years, i.e. since the industrial revolution that supposedly kicked off this whole thing.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep that it's going to be 30 degrees this December as opposed to 29 degrees in 1890.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Anti-GMO folk are another group on the left that I have serious issues with.

I think maybe there's some merit to the case that major Ag companies can use GMOs to abuse their market power and get higher prices for farmers, but that's what antitrust is for.

Agreed.

 

[Irish#1]

Yes. They are as crazy as the people who deny climate change.

I believe man has some effect on the climate, but not nearly as much as many would like for us to believe. There wasn't a large population of man during the ice age. How do you explain that? Mother Nature is a pretty resilient lady IMO.

 

[NorthDakota]

Lmao the first graph on that page is using an 11-year smoothed average and shows, at worst, a one degree swing over 120 years, i.e. since the industrial revolution that supposedly kicked off this whole thing.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep that it's going to be 30 degrees this December as opposed to 29 degrees in 1890.

I'll take that extra degree any day of the week

 

[IrishinSyria]

Lmao the first graph on that page is using an 11-year smoothed average and shows, at worst, a one degree swing over 120 years, i.e. since the industrial revolution that supposedly kicked off this whole thing.

Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep that it's going to be 30 degrees this December as opposed to 29 degrees in 1890.

I wasn't citing that site for the proposition that global warming is real or significant, but to refute your argument that the phrase "global warming" is no longer used.

 

[wizards8507]

I wasn't citing that site for the proposition that global warming is real or significant, but to refute your argument that the phrase "global warming" is no longer used.

SkepticalScience.com is hardly proof of anything.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

SkepticalScience.com is hardly proof of anything.

Okay. Let's go with NASA then.

Climate Resource Center
NASA’s Global Climate Change website hosts an extensive collection of global warming resources for media, educators, weathercasters and public speakers. Browse by topic and by media type, including videos, social media shareables, infographics, quizzes and interactives.

Climate Change: Climate Resource Center - Video: Record-breaking climate trends in 2016

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Wiz, based on my understanding of the science involved, catastrophic climate change/ global warming is actually a two-part theory: (1) man-made CO2 has warmed the world by about 1° C over the last century; and (2) Earth's climate systems are dominated by positive feedbacks which will multiply that initial man-made warming by 3-5 times.

There's no good faith basis for skepticism toward (1). But there may be toward (2). Read up on it and decide for yourself. But you can't just wave the whole thing away with "lol statist conspiracy".

 

[Bluto]

I believe man has some effect on the climate, but not nearly as much as many would like for us to believe. There wasn't a large population of man during the ice age. How do you explain that? Mother Nature is a pretty resilient lady IMO.

Mother Nature is indeed resilient. Large scale human civilizations? Not so much. That's kind of the point. The entire global economy and infrastructure is organized and designed around what have been relatively consistent and stable climate trends, which we are now screwing around with on a global scale for the first time in human existence. My advice, don't invest in property in Florida.

 

[connor_in]

Mother Nature is indeed resilient. Large scale human civilizations? Not so much. That's kind of the point. The entire global economy and infrastructure is organized and designed around what have been relatively consistent and stable climate trends, which we are now screwing around with on a global scale for the first time in human existence. My advice, don't invest in property in Florida.

Didn't the models they used tell us it and numerous other coastal areas was supposed to be gone by now?

 

[kmoose]

They aren't a true cohesive unit. How are they a legit threat to the US as a whole? They can perform acts of terror, they can maybe cause some damage in a singular battle or so, but that's it. ISIS lacks the technology, manpower, infrastructure, mobility, communications, training, and weapons to actually pose an actual threat as a force to bring down the US.

No one said that they were a threat to BRING DOWN the US. But they ARE a threat to the US. If you don't believe that, then go talk to a New Yorker who lived in the city on 9/11/01. They won't be able to bring an end to the US. But they WILL be able to get people into the country and carry out attacks of mass destruction, if we don't do more to secure our borders. In the 40s, the Japanese and Germans would have been able to do something similar, but not as easily. Modern financial systems make it easier to accomplish these things. So what ISIS might lack in cohesion, those disadvantages are offset by the advantages of a few things:

1. The easy access to our Southern border, with established lanes being open to anyone with enough money to purchase passage.
2. The easy access to money from anywhere in the world. I can make millions of dollars available to someone in the US, from just about anywhere in the world, with just a few mouse clicks.
3. The prevailing atmosphere of fear. Not fear of terrorism, but fear of pointing out anyone's difference(s) for fear of being labelled a racist.

 

[IrishBroker]

Didn't the models they used tell us it and numerous other coastal areas was supposed to be gone by now?

Exactly. The same scientists that we are relying on have been wrong every time they've cried wolf about NY city or Florida being underwater.

And the fact that they use this nonsense for fear mongering to pass legislation that stifles REAL solutions, is absurd.

Hey, get a climate model correct if you want my vote.

 

[Bluto]

Didn't the models they used tell us it and numerous other coastal areas was supposed to be gone by now?

No.

 

[Bluto]

Exactly. The same scientists that we are relying on have been wrong every time they've cried wolf about NY city or Florida being underwater.

And the fact that they use this nonsense for fear mongering to pass legislation that stifles REAL solutions, is absurd.

Hey, get a climate model correct if you want my vote.

Nope. The scientists are right. Imagine that. In fact the rate of ice melt is faster than predicted. So I guess if there is any criticism to be leveled it's that the models were too optimistic for lack of a better term.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/oceanscouncil/reports/climate_change_and_sea_level_rise.pdf

 

[Shamrock Theories]

No one said that they were a threat to BRING DOWN the US. But they ARE a threat to the US. If you don't believe that, then go talk to a New Yorker who lived in the city on 9/11/01. They won't be able to bring an end to the US. But they WILL be able to get people into the country and carry out attacks of mass destruction, if we don't do more to secure our borders. In the 40s, the Japanese and Germans would have been able to do something similar, but not as easily. Modern financial systems make it easier to accomplish these things. So what ISIS might lack in cohesion, those disadvantages are offset by the advantages of a few things:

1. The easy access to our Southern border, with established lanes being open to anyone with enough money to purchase passage.
2. The easy access to money from anywhere in the world. I can make millions of dollars available to someone in the US, from just about anywhere in the world, with just a few mouse clicks.
3. The prevailing atmosphere of fear. Not fear of terrorism, but fear of pointing out anyone's difference(s) for fear of being labelled a racist.

Yeah, you are correct.

Some guys can hope a fence, and wire transfers exist, therefore ISIS is a bigger threat to the U.S. than the Axis freaking Powers.

Just stop it

 

[NorthDakota]

Yeah, you are correct.

Some guys can hope a fence, and wire transfers exist, therefore ISIS is a bigger threat to the U.S. than the Axis freaking Powers.

Just stop it

Hey look who came out of his fallout shelter!

 

[Shamrock Theories]

Nope. The scientists are right. Imagine that. In fact the rate of ice melt is faster than predicted. So I guess if there is any criticism to be leveled it's that the models were too optimistic for lack of a better term.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/oceanscouncil/reports/climate_change_and_sea_level_rise.pdf

It reminds me of my fun "discussion" with a poster a few weeks ago about economists overwhelmingly condemning Trump's tax proposals.

Started with him talking shit about the Fed, then devolved into him blaming soybeans for GDP growth.

Sigh.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

Hey look who came out of his fallout shelter!

Yeah, I'M the chicken little.

Man I wish it was 1945 again so we only had to worry about Hitler, Mussloini, and Hirohito, and not big bad ISIS

...

 

[kmoose]

Yeah, you are correct.

Some guys can hope a fence, and wire transfers exist, therefore ISIS is a bigger threat to the U.S. than the Axis freaking Powers.

Just stop it

Yeah, you're right. 9/11 was just a government conspiracy and terrorism can never hurt the US, inside of the US.

Just stop it.

 

[Bubbles]

Yeah, you are correct.

Some guys can hope a fence, and wire transfers exist, therefore ISIS is a bigger threat to the U.S. than the Axis freaking Powers.

Just stop it

Is this how you are accustomed to winning arguments? You may want to do a little reading on modern warfare and how much trouble decentralized guerrilla cells have caused the big, bad US armed forces.

For me its an apples to anchors comparison with no real metrics for determining 'bigger threat', but to dismiss it with a childish response?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Yeah, you're right. 9/11 was just a government conspiracy and terrorism can never hurt the US, inside of the US.

Just stop it.

Strawman. No one said the couldn't hurt the US inside the US. The question was whether the Axis forces were a bigger existential threat to the US than ISIS is.

 

[kmoose]

Strawman. No one said the couldn't hurt the US inside the US. The question was whether the Axis forces were a bigger existential threat to the US than ISIS is.

And all I ever said was that an argument could be made that ISIS is as big a threat, INSIDE of the US, as the Axis forces were. There's no doubt that the Axis powers presented a MUCH larger threat to Europe, North Africa, and Asia, but their ability to cause damage inside of the United States was not much bigger than ISIS' is, if even that.