'13 CA DT Eddie Vanderdoes (UCLA)

[chicago51]

Exactly. I sense that the posters who want to blame the staff don't follow much college football outside of Notre Dame. This is just part of the game, unfortunately. You have to have the stomach for it.

I think there is somewhat of an inferiority complex among a segment of the ND fan base because of the long period of limited to no success. I think that inferiority complex causes some to take these kind of things pretty.

Those with higher self esteem take being dumped much better than those with low self esteem. ND hasn't had as many hot dates in the last 2 decades lately so getting checked by the really hot girl hurts a bit more.

Instead of moving on people try to rationalize the problem on some external factor, instead of shrugging it off. BTW I'm not saying that staff as nothing to learn from this but I don't think it is something to get hung up on.

 

[dublinirish]

i think we are all still not over the CW era when he whiffed on elite DL guys and suffered badly for a few years. Nobody wants to go back to those days but this staff is different and knows how to build, like many have said on here, one recruit will not make or break the program.

 

[KyfightingIrish36]

Exactly. I sense that the posters who want to blame the staff don't follow much college football outside of Notre Dame. This is just part of the game, unfortunately. You have to have the stomach for it.

I follow several different teams and I haven't seen a exodus of so much 5 star talent in the last 3 months.

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>I think he ends up at <a href="https://twitter.com/search/%23UCLA">#UCLA</a> but lawyers are likely involved@<a href="https://twitter.com/mr_brianfisher">mr_brianfisher</a>: @<a href="https://twitter.com/rivalsmike">rivalsmike</a> any thoughts on the Vanderdoes situation?</p>— Mike Farrell (@rivalsmike) <a href="https://twitter.com/rivalsmike/status/337236682858446848">May 22, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I agree with your theory on how things turned out w/ Vanderdoes. He has a lot of the consistencies with guys who simply cannot make up their mind and end up skipping around to several different places. These guys usually also end up failing to stay anywhere, and ironically enough, regardless of their talent, their mental game isn't stable enough to ever fully harness it . . .This reflects direct on Brian Kelly. It's a critical issue right now in regards to his recruiting. And he squarely deserves the blame.

1 or 2 big time guys is fine (ok the player pulled a quick one) ... but it's several VERY key guys (the faces of the class) seemingly every class.

Now you've done it...

I follow several different teams and I haven't seen a exodus of so much 5 star talent in the last 3 months.

Oversimplifed posts, and posters looking for oversimplifed answers.

 

[koonja]

Is anyone else reading Irishpat's posts in 'Charlie Day's' voice?

 

[ND NYC]

Agreed. Unless there is something serious here, no way the NCAA can approve his request. It would open the flood gates for the future. I'm sure the NCAA would like to avoid that...

well we (ND) did communicate on NSD (via the docs the bumbling interns gave the gathered press) that eddie was "in"...the question becomes: did we have a signed LOI in hand when that happened? if we did, that helps us with appeal being denied/us playing hardball.
if we did not, technically EV can say they "announced me as a pledge before i sent over my LOI". not good for ND...and they let him walk.

 

[irishtrinity]

Why do they even sign a letter of intent? lol
Just really bugs me when kids sign on then we here rumors etc. before they show up.
I really hope we get EV, but I will stop getting excited on signing day instead i'll hold off till june.

 

[irishtrinity]

What day do the new guys have to be at ND?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

What day do the new guys have to be at ND?

Like just after Fathers Day weekend. That would be June 16 this year, so I am guessing Monday, June 17th.

 

[IrishLax]

well we (ND) did communicate on NSD (via the docs the bumbling interns gave the gathered press) that eddie was "in"...the question becomes: did we have a signed LOI in hand when that happened? if we did, that helps us with appeal being denied/us playing hardball.
if we did not, technically EV can say they "announced me as a pledge before i sent over my LOI". not good for ND...and they let him walk.

Completely irrelevant. That will have absolutely zero bearing on the NCAA ruling on his LOI. The only things that get you out of an LOI are serious events after the LOI is signed or malpractice during the signing (I.e. coercion, signing two separate LOIs and sending both in at the same time, etc.).

Unless EV has some serious mitigating circumstance that developed over the past 2 months he is not getting out of the LOI. Period.

 

[ScooterIrish]

well we (ND) did communicate on NSD (via the docs the bumbling interns gave the gathered press) that eddie was "in"...the question becomes: did we have a signed LOI in hand when that happened? if we did, that helps us with appeal being denied/us playing hardball.
if we did not, technically EV can say they "announced me as a pledge before i sent over my LOI". not good for ND...and they let him walk.

Well, assume ND didn't actually have his LOI because EV hadn't signed it yet. Even after knowing ND did that, he still signed his LOI and faxed it over. No way should that argument work.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Some facts for all to think about.......

Of the top 20 recruits of 2012 nationally according to Scout, 1 has transferred so far.
2011, 3 transferred
2010, 6 transferred
2009, 4 transferred
2008 - 4 transferred
2007 - 3 transferred

So, assuming that the top 20 are five stars, about 18% transferred.

If I look back at ND five stars since Clausen (according to scout for consistency purposes), ND has inked 16 5. 5 have transfered if you count Crist, 4 if you don't, 3 if you do not count EV. I don't consider Crist a transfer, but I will count EV. So ND has a 25% transfer out trend. Not too far from average, but slightly higher. In the last three classes, we have inked 9 five stars according to Scout. we have lost 4, counting EV.

From a trend perspective, over the last 6 classes, we have been about average. However, if you look at just the last three, we have been close to double the attrition.

Just thought I would share that.

Scout.com: Recruiting 2011 - CFN Top 50 Prospects

 

[irishtrinity]

Like just after Fathers Day weekend. That would be June 16 this year, so I am guessing Monday, June 17th.

I hope the new drops sooner than later.. Got my nerves all messed up.. I got to say EV was my boy this hurts to even hear rumors.. Give me some good news please!

 

[GreenSox04]

I know it's completely irrational and misplaced and its not set in stone, etc etc.

But does anyone want a piece of UCLA all of a sudden?

 

[AdmiralBackhand]

I know it's completely irrational and misplaced and its not set in stone, etc etc.

But does anyone want a piece of UCLA all of a sudden?

I would enjoy meeting them the first game of the season in 2014.

 

[IrishLax]

I know it's completely irrational and misplaced and its not set in stone, etc etc.

But does anyone want a piece of UCLA all of a sudden?

LOL yup! Was just thinking about this last night... would love to get them in a BCS game somehow.

 

[ScooterIrish]

LOL yup! Was just thinking about this last night... would love to get them in a BCS game somehow.

Nah, I would rather play the Florida's of the world in a BCS game. I'll let UCLA continue to get killed by the Big 12 bottom-feeders (sorry Baylor) in some bowl game played on some random night in December.

 

[ND NYC]

I know it's completely irrational and misplaced and its not set in stone, etc etc.

But does anyone want a piece of UCLA all of a sudden?

absolutley!

Someone que up a youtube clip of the "Quinn to Szmadjzia vs UCLA" game winner.

i remember exactly where i was when that happened like it was yesterday...

 

[SoIll]

I've read most of this, but between the arguing and depression its tough to follow.. sooo that being said.. His he gone or what fellas?

 

[ND NYC]

Completely irrelevant. That will have absolutely zero bearing on the NCAA ruling on his LOI. The only things that get you out of an LOI are serious events after the LOI is signed or malpractice during the signing (I.e. coercion, signing two separate LOIs and sending both in at the same time, etc.).

Unless EV has some serious mitigating circumstance that developed over the past 2 months he is not getting out of the LOI. Period.

from a "legal" stadpoint you could be right. but this is ND and its not out of realm of possibility this did occur (probably did)...and swarbrick and the ND PR machine may want to move the spotlight/distraction away from their mistake (eddie could discuss this with press, sac bee etc play the woe is me victim vs bog bad ND) as well as cut the cord with a guy who apparently doesnt want to be here...that they feel just not worth the aggravation/sideshow and let the kid walk.

have to think they are looking to move on from any "bad PR" fatigue at the Gug (Teo hoax, NC game debacle, Kelly to Philly etc). make clean break and let play some football...

 

[irishpat183]

I agree with your theory on how things turned out w/ Vanderdoes. He has a lot of the consistencies with guys who simply cannot make up their mind and end up skipping around to several different places. These guys usually also end up failing to stay anywhere, and ironically enough, regardless of their talent, their mental game isn't stable enough to ever fully harness it.

Anyway, as for your other point about whose fault it's. I totally disagree here.

When a coaching staff goes out and sets its priorities on who to recruit, it's their job before they invest a lot of recruiting time into an individual to assess the players mentally (their desire to be here, their history of stability, etc.) This is a VERY important part of scouting in all major sports. If the coaching staff sees any red flags, they need to move on immediately and find somebody who is a better fit.

Brian Kelly and his staff have failed miserably in this regard. They are always wasting tons of recruiting time/resources going after guys who simply don't want to be here.

The turnover rate in recent years has been alarming.

This reflects direct on Brian Kelly. It's a critical issue right now in regards to his recruiting. And he squarely deserves the blame.

1 or 2 big time guys is fine (ok the player pulled a quick one) ... but it's several VERY key guys (the faces of the class) seemingly every class.

Go back several pages and read what WhiskeyJack, a few others and I wrote in response to a post similar to this. I am not going to retype what I already argued, but your argument is fundamentally flawed, as you fail to grasp the fact that they are all individual instances where not only does blame clearly fall on the other party, but BK has no culpability whatsoever.

Making yourself educated on a subject before presented an opinion is a solid policy to have.

Ironman...Seriously? Because every person on this site (including myself, LOL) is just speculating.

I don't think recruiting has anything to do with "educating" oneself. It's all rumors and speculation...including the theory that EV is leaving due to cold feet and not a rift with the staff.

Thank you Brown, for your post. I have the same opinion on the matter and that BK does have something to do with recruits leaving the way they are. If others disagree?? Fine. But unless their a$$es are in the lockerroom, they don't know any better than we do.

And like someone eles said, it's the staff's job to make these kids feel at home and not want to waiver. So is it so far fetched to believe that the staff may have screwed up by just "closing the deal" or not making the kid feel comfortable?

It's like we're calling your momma ugly. Seriously. BK does screw up. And i'm not saying that I dislike him for it. But it's a trend. And if we're builiding a great program (which I believe we are despite all the defections) we can't keep losing guys like this. Because right now...we DON"T have the depth that Bama does.

 

[irishpat183]

Some facts for all to think about.......

Of the top 20 recruits of 2012 nationally according to Scout, 1 has transferred so far.
2011, 3 transferred
2010, 6 transferred
2009, 4 transferred
2008 - 4 transferred
2007 - 3 transferred

So, assuming that the top 20 are five stars, about 18% transferred.

If I look back at ND five stars since Clausen (according to scout for consistency purposes), ND has inked 16 5. 5 have transfered if you count Crist, 4 if you don't, 3 if you do not count EV. I don't consider Crist a transfer, but I will count EV. So ND has a 25% transfer out trend. Not too far from average, but slightly higher. In the last three classes, we have inked 9 five stars according to Scout. we have lost 4, counting EV.

From a trend perspective, over the last 6 classes, we have been about average. However, if you look at just the last three, we have been close to double the attrition.

Just thought I would share that.

Scout.com: Recruiting 2011 - CFN Top 50 Prospects

Great post.

 

[Emcee77]

Pat, despite IM8's repeated attempts to explain this and your continuing failure to catch on, I'm sure you can grasp the difference between (1) saying something that is completely fanciful and based on pure speculation, but nevertheless presented as fact and (2) having a discussion based on the facts that are available to us, even if they may change. You are doing the first; we are trying to do the second.

The accusation that EV's decision to go elsewhere is BK's fault is simply not supported by any facts right now. I tend to agree that rumors should be fair game on a recruiting board, but there is a big difference between rumors which are based on unconfirmed facts and rumors which are based on NO facts at all. Right now (and this could change as more facts come out) any charge that BK is at fault here is the latter type of rumor and has no place on this board. It's just so much hot air (or whatever the electronic equivalent of that is) and it does nothing but waste everyone's time.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Ironman...Seriously? Because every person on this site (including myself, LOL) is just speculating.

I don't think recruiting has anything to do with "educating" oneself. It's all rumors and speculation...including the theory that EV is leaving due to cold feet and not a rift with the staff.

Thank you Brown, for your post. I have the same opinion on the matter and that BK does have something to do with recruits leaving the way they are. If others disagree?? Fine. But unless their a$$es are in the lockerroom, they don't know any better than we do.

And like someone eles said, it's the staff's job to make these kids feel at home and not want to waiver. So is it so far fetched to believe that the staff may have screwed up by just "closing the deal" or not making the kid feel comfortable?

It's like we're calling your momma ugly. Seriously. BK does screw up. And i'm not saying that I dislike him for it. But it's a trend. And if we're builiding a great program (which I believe we are despite all the defections) we can't keep losing guys like this. Because right now...we DON"T have the depth that Bama does.

Some of us are not speculating.

 

[IrishLax]

from a "legal" stadpoint you could be right. but this is ND and its not out of realm of possibility this did occur (probably did)...and swarbrick and the ND PR machine may want to move the spotlight/distraction away from their mistake (eddie could discuss this with press, sac bee etc play the woe is me victim vs bog bad ND) as well as cut the cord with a guy who apparently doesnt want to be here...that they feel just not worth the aggravation/sideshow and let the kid walk.

have to think they are looking to move on from any "bad PR" fatigue at the Gug (Teo hoax, NC game debacle, Kelly to Philly etc). make clean break and let play some football...

Yeah totally they could decide to cut bait but I'm hoping (and doubt) that they will.

I'm shocked that this stayed under wraps as long as it did and wish it had longer and maybe I'd feel better about the prospects of this eventually working out. Now that's it's all out in the public realm I just don't see how he could possibly land at ND. So it really begs the question, as you said, if it's best for us to just let it go and move on.

 

[Ironman8]

Ironman...Seriously? Because every person on this site (including myself, LOL) is just speculating.

I don't think recruiting has anything to do with "educating" oneself. It's all rumors and speculation...including the theory that EV is leaving due to cold feet and not a rift with the staff.

Thank you Brown, for your post. I have the same opinion on the matter and that BK does have something to do with recruits leaving the way they are. If others disagree?? Fine. But unless their a$$es are in the lockerroom, they don't know any better than we do.

And like someone eles said, it's the staff's job to make these kids feel at home and not want to waiver. So is it so far fetched to believe that the staff may have screwed up by just "closing the deal" or not making the kid feel comfortable?

It's like we're calling your momma ugly. Seriously. BK does screw up. And i'm not saying that I dislike him for it. But it's a trend. And if we're builiding a great program (which I believe we are despite all the defections) we can't keep losing guys like this. Because right now...we DON"T have the depth that Bama does.

Why is it so hard to read, comprehend, and then argue a post? I, and others, have asked you to illustrate to us how BK would be at fault for any of these transfers besides AA (who we truly don't know about - I think he was gone either way but there is really no way to know for sure).

How do I think BK is infallible? I hated the way he went about his flirtation with the Eagles, and was very outspoken about it. Also spoke out, several times, about how quick his hook has been with QBs, but you know what - his actions worked! We won. I eat crow for those instances gladly.

Answer my question and we can proceed. Continue back to your same line of posting while avoiding our questions, disappearing, and then reappearing when a new post comes up that has a similar line to your "opinion" is no way to have a debate.

So please tell me, how BK is at fault, and what you wanted him to do, in each case, or let it go. No need to take shots simply because you can't answer a question.

 

[dwshade]

Can't deny there's a pattern. Priestwood and Neal also were up in the air until at least the last minute, and now are gone, for whatever reason. (On the other hand, ND's best two defensive players of the last 20 years -- Te'o and Tuitt -- also were a bit flaky until NSD. And Ishaq kind of had the same approach, and he's still here...).

Maybe the staff just needs to try to get a little more confirmation that the kids are solid, and stop trying to "just close the deal". Recruiting a player doesn't stop just because he signs an LOI.

I can assure the staff already knows this. But getting inside the head of a 17-18 year old kid is extremely difficult.

 

[irishog77]

Why are posters here taking a "100% or 0%" stance on blame with Kelly here? Even more, I'm not even sure Pat ever took a "100% of the blame lies with Kelly" stance here.

Yes, we all know kids transfer ALL the time...in every sport. Bringing up stats on kids who graduated and transferred or on kids that were 2-star or 3-star recruits is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. 5-stars (or high 4-star) are the issue. So narrowing down that potential list leaves much fewer players. And go ahead and remove USC from that too-- they got hit with major sanctions...of course they're going to lose players (go ahead and add PSU to this list as well). Now there's a much better "list" of players to look at to compare the exodus at ND to the exodus at other schools. Other schools also admit kids with criminal pasts/histories and/or kids that are functionally illiterate. In other words, coaches, administrators, fans, etc. know (or should know) that bringing that kid in is a big gamble as there's a decent chance the kid will never make it. ND, for all intents and purposes, doesn't admit kids of that nature.

So of the relatively few 5-stars that Kelly has brought into ND, he does not have a great track record of keeping a high percentage of them. This isn't an attack on Kelly. This is looking at legitimate data. COULD Kelly be A PART of the problem? Absolutely! COULD he have done more...done things differently? Absolutely! Does acknowledging this diminish what he's done at ND and stops before that? No! Kelly's been a fantastic, homerun hire for ND.

I'm baffled by the rush to seemingly absolve him of ANY blame for the loss of any of these players. Yes, in several instances, there is probably nothing he could have done. But in several of the instances, there are things he could have done differently. Does this mean that sometimes there aren't "additions by subtraction?" No way. By most accounts, losing Lynch was probably an example of this. But losing a TALENT like Lynch hurt. Losing a TALENT like Neal, Kiel, Vanderdoes, and even Sheppard, Prestwood, and Ferguson hurt. Even if Kelly has to do some soul searching and decide if it's even worth the staff's time to recruit some of these guys, then so be it.

Closing the gap on Alabama becomes MUCH harder to do with less talented players. There's no denying it and no way around it. CAN Kelly still lead ND to closing that gap and a title? Yes! It's just harder.

I doubt I'm the only one (in fact, I doubt I'm even in the minority) that believes ND will win a natty without upgrading talent...or that he and his staff definitely mishandled some things in the recruiting, signing, or coaching of some players.

 

[dwshade]

I agree with your theory on how things turned out w/ Vanderdoes. He has a lot of the consistencies with guys who simply cannot make up their mind and end up skipping around to several different places. These guys usually also end up failing to stay anywhere, and ironically enough, regardless of their talent, their mental game isn't stable enough to ever fully harness it.

Anyway, as for your other point about whose fault it's. I totally disagree here.

When a coaching staff goes out and sets its priorities on who to recruit, it's their job before they invest a lot of recruiting time into an individual to assess the players mentally (their desire to be here, their history of stability, etc.) This is a VERY important part of scouting in all major sports. If the coaching staff sees any red flags, they need to move on immediately and find somebody who is a better fit.

Brian Kelly and his staff have failed miserably in this regard. They are always wasting tons of recruiting time/resources going after guys who simply don't want to be here.

The turnover rate in recent years has been alarming.

This reflects direct on Brian Kelly. It's a critical issue right now in regards to his recruiting. And he squarely deserves the blame.

1 or 2 big time guys is fine (ok the player pulled a quick one) ... but it's several VERY key guys (the faces of the class) seemingly every class.

One of the most mindless posts I've ever read. You have no clue about recruiting HS kids.