The Rise of the Tree

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Now there is an idea, embrace the academic requirements rather than bitching about them and how they prohibit us from getting talent.

Stringent standards help Stanford elevate itself in recruiting - NCAA Football - CBSSports.com

 

[GEORGIA DOMER]

One former recruiting coordinator at a SEC program didn't recall having a single signee that even took an AP class.

 

[ChiRish]

Just win baby.

Stringent standards help Stanford elevate itself in recruiting - NCAA Football - CBSSports.com

Good read, thanks for the article. I know we're rivals with Stanford, but as school that prides itself on academics, ND should really admire the way that Stanford has turned things around. I hope that the "it's cool to be smart" deal continues, it would be great for ND and really reflect the concept that these are supposed to be STUDENT athletes.

I also found this interesting:

At Stanford, the admissions department wants to see, among other things, students taking two AP classes in their senior year of high school, Shaw says. That alone will reduce a football program's options. One former recruiting coordinator at a SEC program didn't recall having a single signee that even took an AP class.

That, plain and simple, is one reason out of many that I despise the SEC. Absolutely no regard for academics or the integrity of their own respective academic institutions.

 

[johnnykillz]

Holla?

 

[IrishNJ89]

Holla?

The Portand Timbers they are a rowdy bunch

 

[Rocket89]

It's a good story, but let's check back in 2018.

There's a lot of 2-year success stories out there in this world. It has to hold up for it to matter.

 

[IrishLax]

It's a good story, but let's check back in 2018.

There's a lot of 2-year success stories out there in this world. It has to hold up for it to matter.

Yeah... and ND would also be fine if we had arguably the best coach around + Andrew Freaking Luck... a guy who played two years at a #1 draft pick level. Plus, it'd be nice to play a schedule like Stanford's.

Stanford's success has absolutely nothing to do with academics and everything to do with Jim Harbaugh's genius.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's a good story, but let's check back in 2018.

There's a lot of 2-year success stories out there in this world. It has to hold up for it to matter.

Yeah... and ND would also be fine if we had arguably the best coach around + Andrew Freaking Luck... a guy who played two years at a #1 draft pick level. Plus, it'd be nice to play a schedule like Stanford's.

Stanford's success has absolutely nothing to do with academics and everything to do with Jim Harbaugh's genius.

^

 

[ChiRish]

Yeah... and ND would also be fine if we had arguably the best coach around + Andrew Freaking Luck... a guy who played two years at a #1 draft pick level. Plus, it'd be nice to play a schedule like Stanford's.

Stanford's success has absolutely nothing to do with academics and everything to do with Jim Harbaugh's genius.

Great point. If they want to talk about academics and great athletic success, they could have written this article about 150 times over the course of ND's history. Not after 2 years of Andrew Luck, and a few years of Jim Harbaugh. Granted, they have still recruited amazingly well.

 

[returnofthemack]

David Shaw is the Jim Caldwell of college football. I hope this upcoming season without Luck is as precipitous a drop for him as it was for Caldwell.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The other big component in the Cardinal's cool factor is all of the negativity surrounding college football these days with scandals in academics and recruiting, Shaw says. "I've been searching and I haven't found any other school recently that's been ranked both in the top 5 in college football and the top 5 by the U.S. News & Report."

It annoys me whenever anyone cites that absurdly arbitrary ranking, but (1) I'm weird like that; and (2) one should expect schools to tout whatever ranking is kindest to them.

The margin for error is dramatically different than almost everyone else the Cardinal play against on the field. It's also more challenging than even the "academic" football schools. Fallback options or Plan B recruiting scenarios aren't very common -- Cardinal staffers can rattle off players who ended up at some of these other programs after getting denied admission at Stanford.

I also don't buy that Stanford's admission process for football players is much more stringent than ND's. The pool of elite players who also have the academic chops for either university is relatively small already; if the Cardinal truly is limiting themselves to kids who reach out to them first and have X number of AP credits coming out of high school, their regression back to the mean is going to be pretty fast.

ND is extremely close to or superior than Stanford in virtually every category of Football ROI due to ND's unparalleled success at graduating its athletes, but Feldman's article makes it sound like Stanford is unique in its recruiting methods and academic selectivity.

 

[ChiRish]

It annoys me whenever anyone cites that absurdly arbitrary ranking, but (1) I'm weird like that; and (2) one should expect schools to tout whatever ranking is kindest to them.



I also don't buy that Stanford's admission process for football players is much more stringent than ND's. The pool of elite players who also have the academic chops for either university is relatively small already; if the Cardinal truly is limiting themselves to kids who reach out to them first and have X number of AP credits coming out of high school, their regression back to the mean is going to be pretty fast.

ND's is extremely close to or superior than Stanford in virtually every category of Football ROI due to ND's unparalleled success at graduating its athletes, but Feldman's article makes it sound like Stanford is unique in its recruiting methods and academic selectivity.

You're not the only one. I can't believe that that ranking system has any credibility at all. It's quite known that they jumble their rankings to sell copies of their garbage every year. I can't stand it. And really, Stanford can't walk and talk as if they're the only elite academic institution that has different standards when the actual impact of the school's academic policies is either below that or equal to Notre Dame in all of the categories you mention in Football ROI. Ridiculous.

 

[PerthDomer]

Having gone to Notre Dame I can tell you that Stanford is significantly more prestigious academically. It's seen as equivalent prestige wise to Harvard/Princeton/Yale/MIT. Notre Dame's a good school but getting in for a general student isn't nearly as difficult. For athletics I remember Troy Niklas picked Notre Dame in part because Stanford rejected him.

 

[PerthDomer]

And the fact that some fball players at ND graduate is a testament to how easy some degree programs are to complete here. (I'm looking at you marketing)

 

[Emcee77]

Having gone to Notre Dame I can tell you that Stanford is significantly more prestigious academically. It's seen as equivalent prestige wise to Harvard/Princeton/Yale/MIT. Notre Dame's a good school but getting in for a general student isn't nearly as difficult. For athletics I remember Troy Niklas picked Notre Dame in part because Stanford rejected him.

Is this true? I hadn't heard this. I thought Stanford was an option right up till signing day. I was initially, like other readers, very skeptical that Stanford is working with a significantly smaller pool of recruits than we do. I mean we have to turn away recruits late in the process too, like Standifer. Who knows though. Wish the article had provided specific examples, even if it left out the names.

And the fact that some fball players at ND graduate is a testament to how easy some degree programs are to complete here. (I'm looking at you marketing)

I'm sure any school with big-time athletics, including Stanford, has at least some easy degree programs and offers lots of support.

 

[IrishLax]

And the fact that some fball players at ND graduate is a testament to how easy some degree programs are to complete here. (I'm looking at you marketing)

Engineer? Guessing by the name and your hate on marketing... which is laughable as there are about a dozen easier degrees at ND.

It's funny how much these two posts epitomize the type of ND student I loathed in my time there... the self-loathing wannabe Ivy students where the only reason they ended up at ND is because they couldn't get into those schools or Chicago or your equivalent engineering school. You're probably not that kind of kid, they were a very small minority and they all seemed to be some sort of science major, but I'll be damned if the "prestige" thing doesn't make me want to hurl.

 

[Emcee77]

Engineer? Guessing by the name and your hate on marketing... which is laughable as there are about a dozen easier degrees at ND.

It's funny how much these two posts epitomize the type of ND student I loathed in my time there... the self-loathing wannabe Ivy students (you) where the only reason they ended up at ND is because they couldn't get into those schools or Chicago or your equivalent engineering school. You're probably not that kind of kid, they were a very small minority and they all seemed to be some sort of science major, but I'll be damned if the "prestige" thing doesn't make me want to hurl.

lol yes there were many of these. I knew more than a few who had been denied early admission to Duke. ND students love to throw around the BC Backup College joke but we are a total Duke backup school.

(also not hating on the prior poster, just laughing at Lax's post. it's funny 'cause it's true.)

 

[PerthDomer]

I was a bio major. Engineers have my utmost respect, they work their a$$es off. When I applied I had ND tied for 1st and ended up getting rejected by my other #1 so the choice was made easier. I loved it at ND and in retrospect am very glad I didn't go to a more prestigious school. ND was the right choice. If you do a revealed preference survey, however ND doesn't win much against the top academic schools (HYPMITS). Those are facts. Top grad schools/businesses recruit Stanford more heavily than ND and that's a fact. Stanford has more stringent admissions for football than ND and that's a fact.

And yes, the students who got into ND and wasted the opportunity that was denied quite a few friends by picking a major just to avoid work for 4 years ticks me off. So sue me.

 

[PerthDomer]

Actually I talked to an admissions officer and we win 33% of crossadmits vs. Duke most years. I had a few friends who picked us over them, but they weren't on my radar.

 

[IrishLax]

I was a bio major. Engineers have my utmost respect, they work their a$$es off. When I applied I had ND tied for 1st and ended up getting rejected by my other #1 so the choice was made easier. I loved it at ND and in retrospect am very glad I didn't go to a more prestigious school. ND was the right choice. If you do a revealed preference survey, however ND doesn't win much against the top academic schools (HYPMITS). Those are facts. Top grad schools/businesses recruit Stanford more heavily than ND and that's a fact. Stanford has more stringent admissions for football than ND and that's a fact.

And yes, the students who got into ND and wasted the opportunity that was denied quite a few friends by picking a major just to avoid work for 4 years ticks me off. So sue me.

So you are a stuck up science kid! Kidding (sorta) I had many a friend who was a bio major or science pre-professional and yeah... the disdain for FTT and sociology majors and the like is rather prevalent. I did engineering myself. The thing I never understood is why people who freely choose the major that requires hard work hate it so much when their friends who freely chose majors without work and Friday classes get to goof off more. Either drop the major like 2/3 of the kids who start off as engineers or suck it up.

I will strongly disagree with your premise that BUSINESSES recruit the Harvards and Stanfords for undergrads more than ND. Frankly, every kid I know who was a finance major at ND and pulled good grades got at least an interview with whatever financial institution they wanted. I know tons of people (including former athletes) on Wall Street right now. Same for programs like architecture... which is reallllly top notch. As an industry preparation place, ND's undergrad is very hard to beat... and that's the reason why we're tied with Yale in ROI/$$$ for our graduates. Matriculating to grad school? I agree 100%.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I applied to five schools... Dartmouth, Cornell, ND, Virginia, and Georgia Tech. I got in to all, and got money (in different amounts) from all but Notre Dame. I chose ND for a lot of reasons, and never for a second do I regret not chasing "prestige"... in fact, half the reason I didn't apply to Chicago, Harvard, and some other was because on visits I hated how "prestigious" everyone acted... from the tour guides to the faculty to the students... just acted like total stuck up holier-than-thou individuals. Especially the kids at Chicago... /vomit

Anyways, I think the greater point is none of this crap has anything to do with Stanford's success. They won because they had one of the top 5 coaches in the entire country (college or pro) coupled with the best player in all of college football at the most important position in college football for a full 4 years including 2 at his absolute prime. They did not win because in the least because of recruits choosing them for the kinds of nuanced academic discriminators people we're discussing here. They chose Stanford because they lacked alternatives.

Johnathan Martin? According to Rivals he was a low 3 prospect that was interested in Harvard, ND, Stanford... got offers from Stanford, UCLA, Utah and Utah State... Stanford only had ONE BCS conference team to beat out in UCLA... easy.

David Decastro? Another low 3 with offers from Washington, Washington State, and Oregon State. Joke.

Andrew Luck? According to the article had "50" offers but no recruiting site lists him as having more than Virginia, Rice, Purdue, Oklahoma State, Alabama, Northwestern... more importantly, no Texas or Texas A&M... no USC or Notre Dame... etc. He committed to Stanford in the summer before he blew up and then, being the honorable kid he is, had already completely shut down recruiting.

These kid chose Stanford because, frankly, they had no or very limited "big time" football options. Their offer lists sucked. They did not choose Stanford because "academics are cool." You had a great coach (Harbaugh) mining diamonds in the rough. /tip of the hat

 

[PerthDomer]

If you're thinking Ibanking you're off on business. ND's getting better at placement, but ibanking firms are prestige whores. (I have a friend who got into one, but it's tough coming from ND)

And yes, Stanford won despite a recruiting disadvantage, not because they were smarter. They had no speed on the edge besides Owusu and their offense was really Luck throwing TEs open/a power run game. ND has more upside. All Stanford proves is that if they can do it with their extreme restrictions we should be able to win too. Hopefully Stanford will regress towards the mean soon so they stop luring smart kids away from us.

 

[IrishLax]

If you're thinking Ibanking you're off on business. ND's getting better at placement, but ibanking firms are prestige whores. (I have a friend who got into one, but it's tough coming from ND)

And yes, Stanford won despite a recruiting disadvantage, not because they were smarter. They had no speed on the edge besides Owusu and their offense was really Luck throwing TEs open/a power run game. ND has more upside. All Stanford proves is that if they can do it with their extreme restrictions we should be able to win too. Hopefully Stanford will regress towards the mean soon so they stop luring smart kids away from us.

Yes, landing the extra Wayne Lyons, Noor Davis, Alex Carter, etc. in each recruiting cycle can be the difference between being a consistent 9 win team and a consistent 10 win team.

 

[Redbar]

David Shaw is the Jim Caldwell of college football. I hope this upcoming season without Luck is as precipitous a drop for him as it was for Caldwell.

Wow. Don't know what to make of that statement.