A Measured Review of Kelly's First Two Recruiting Classes

IrishLax

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It’s important to look at recruiting classes in 2 year blocks. That is, you can afford to have a bad class or two but you can rarely overcome bad classes back to back. It’s also important that classes compliment each other. If you “miss” at a position one year it’s important to load up at that position the next. In this case, you have Brian Kelly’s first two full classes as the first true opportunity for a snapshot of the direction the program is heading.

QB
Kelly landed Everett Golson and Gunner Kiel in back-to-back classes giving Notre Dame a bright future at QB. If there is one truism in college football it is that a gamebreaking QB can make average teams great, and poor QB play can make very good teams bad. Look no further than the FSU, Stanford and USC games for examples of how even if you have a Ferrari if the driver can’t drive stick well you’re not going anywhere fast. With Golson as a mobile pass-first QB with incredible arm strength and Kiel as a 6’4” 5:s: QB prospect it’s safe to say one of these two will pan out as the QB of the future and that Kelly hit a homerun at QB recruiting.

WR
Kelly has recruited 5 WRs over the past two years between Matthias Farley, DaVaris Daniels, Keivarae Russel, Chris Brown, and Justin Ferguson. DaVaris Daniels is marketed as the next ND megastar and Chris Brown has tremendous upside… and Keivarae Russel is an elite athlete for the slot position but isn’t proven. Justin Ferguson has the physical tools but lacks top end speed and has shown to have a case of the dropsies when he’s been on television. Farley is as likely to pan out as a WR prospect as he is to be switched over to CB. In general this group lacks depth but as long as DaVaris Daniels produces how he is expect to we should be OK here. Had we held onto Greenberry, this WR corps would be set up for dominance.

RB
Between Will Mahone, Cam McDaniel, George Atkinson, and Amir Carlisle we are great at RB. Amir Carlisle showed himself to be the best RB at USC last year as a true freshman before being derailed by injuries. Mahone can bring a one-cut physical brand of football to the Irish similar to what Jonas Gray provided as a senior. Atkinson has tremendous upside as an athlete and McDaniel seems like he’ll be one of those guys who will be ready when called upon. Overall, 5:s: RBs typically bust just as often as they pan out to be Adrian Peterson-esque megastars and this is a very well rounded corps of RBs with sufficient depth to play BCS caliber football. We did very well here.

TE
Only one TE has been sign in the previous two classes and that man is Ben Koyack. Koyack is supposed to have tremendous upside and develop into a dominant player with time. Unfortunately we burned his redshirt last season so he’ll have, at best, 2 years as a starter post-Eifert. The scary thing is we will be dangerously thing at TE if we suffer injuries this year as we did not take another TE… opting to pass on Taylor McNamara who EE’d at Oklahoma. Had he been a regular NSD recruit, we would’ve likely offered him late in the cycle.

OL
ND has brought in a total of 7 OL in the past two years, 3 of which were elite prospects. Matt Hegarty was the #3 OT and Jordan Prestwood was the #4 OT on 247 in a year that was weak with OL prospects; and this year Ronnie Stanley was a top 15 OT by just about every service. Beyond these highly ranked guys, ND also added Nick Martin who from early returns looks in line to be an over-achiever (compared to his physical measurements) much like his brother along with Brad Carrico, Conor Hanratty, and Mark Harrel. 7 is a pretty good number of total OL for a 2 year haul and it looks like ND will target at least 3 and maybe 4 next year with mega-recruit Steve Elmer already onboard… so all things considered, we seem to be in good shape with both depth and talent here. The Jordan Prestwood transfer was absolutely huge.

DL
Without a doubt, DL is the position where we have the most depth and talent between the last two classes. It’s hard to determine where exactly to classify guys like Ishaq Williams and Troy Niklas but for argument’s sake I consider our DL haul to be Aaron Lynch, Tony Springmann, Stephon Tuitt, Chase Hounshell, Troy Niklas, Sheldon Day, and Jarron Jones. No matter what way you slice it, that’s a ton of talent… and then you also have to remember that Louis Nix is in the same class (eligibility wise) as the 2011 guys. Really good work on the defensive side of the trenches.

OLB
Ishaq Williams, Ben Councell, and Romeo Okwara appear to be the only OLBs we’ve recruited the past two years… but then you have to consider the prospect of guys like Shumate and Baratti and Niklas contributing in LB type roles at times. Not a position with a lot of depth, and one of the reasons why I wish we’d taken a chance on Ekanem, but the talent sure seems to be there.

ILB
This an interesting position where we’ve taken Anthony Rabasa, Jarrett Grace and Joe Schmidt as a walk-on… and took them all in the 2011 class. Not a lot of depth or highly rated talent here and passing on ILBs in this cycle seems interesting.

CB
Jalen Brown, Josh Atkinson, and Tee Shephard are the 3 CBs we’ve managed to sign in the past 2 years. Both Brown and Atkinson have elite foot speed but were both rated far lower than Tee Shepherd by the experts. Conversely, Tee Shephard is supposed to be a lockdown corner but lacks the 40 time you usually see from the Champ Baileys of the world. This is probably the position of most concern for us moving forward as you’d like to have at least 2 CBs per class. This situation is better if you consider Eilar Hardy a CB and he doesn’t lose a step from his knee injury.

S
Between Chris Badger, Nick Baratti, Elijah Shumate, CJ Prosise, John Turner, and Eilar Hardy; Notre Dame has acquired 6 safety prospects. That’s a good number for depth, however the bad news is that none of them are very prototypical highly rated safety types… Elijah Shumate and Eilar Hardy are both consensus 4:s: players but also projected as possibly hybrid type fits in the defense. Eilar may play corner and Shumate may play some DOLB. CJ Prosise and Nick Baratti seem to both have high upside for different reasons but will take some time to develop. No one is really sure what to expect from John Turner and Chris Badger.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The takeaway from these classes is that we are stacked at QB and on the DL… arguably the two most important positions on the field along with OL. We also got a very deep group of OL and RB prospects and top notch talent at TE, OLB, and WR even if we lack a little depth. ILB is an interesting position but not really a concern as both Rabasa and Grace were highly rated and it’s a position of depth in other classes. CB and S are nightmares where a couple injuries or “upside” prospects that don’t pan out could spell serious doom and gloom. We lack depth at CB and can’t really afford to move over any WRs (except maybe Farley) because of a lack of depth at WR.

Taking an analysis of the classes a bit further, it’s quite clear to me that we’re moving towards more of a hybrid 4-3 than a 3-4. By this I mean it looks like we’re going to use a front 4 of something like Lynch—Nix—Tuitt—Ishaq/Shembo with Ishaq/Shembo occasionally dropping and playing in space but most of the time bringing the pain. On the other side I expect to see Councell emerge and be complimented by some hybrid S/LB type guys… this position will be the wildcard of coverage and bringing a speed rush. So that all looks very promising. It appears our season will hinge on Austin Collinsworth emerging at S or Zeke Motta learning how to run fast… plus Benett Jackson and 1 of Atkinson/Brown/Shephard stepping up big time.

On offense… it is what it is. We have our QBs and skill players of the future; but it’s unclear if this is their year to shine or not. I personally expect Theo Riddick and Cierre Wood to be our RBs with TJ Jones playing slot for the next two years while Keivarae Russel learns how to play WR and a pretty wide open rotation at our outside WR spots. DaVaris Daniels is the only young gun that needs to contribute this yea for to be successful… everyone else is OK to take some development time.

So overall, Kelly is doing good but not great. He has some of the same issues Weis had with his classes albeit at different positions. Weis had huge holes on the DL and loaded up on highly rated talent everywhere else. Kelly has holes at the DB position. One of the most interesting things to look at is how Weis recruited nearly all football-first kids selling them on his super bowl rings... then got minimal effort, a rash of transfers, and a sense of entitlement. Kelly has recruited almost exclusively NOT football first guys... and so far has much better retainage. We'll see how the on field results come along. Next year is going to be a very big year on the field because we're going to need to pull in a class of 20+ kids with a lot of talent at CB, S, OL, and LB. ND cannot afford whiffs next year because if they miss on a lot of prospects the next two year snapshot will be very ugly. Very, very ugly.

So that's my opinion on how things look in the aftermath of the epic string of CB misses and Deontay-to-Houston fiasco that will live in infamy. I think we're going to be OK as long as we take care of business next year. What do you all think?
 

eNDzone

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Nice work IrishLax. You said an informative mouthful.
 

irishog77

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Good work, bro. Could you explain a little more about the "football first and not football first" comment? Just not exactly sure what you mean.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I wonder if the weakness in the defensive backfield is about the kind of kids Kelly likes to recruit, not their ability. What do you think?
 

anarin

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TE
Only one TE has been sign in the previous two classes and that man is Ben Koyack. Koyack is supposed to have tremendous upside and develop into a dominant player with time. Unfortunately we burned his redshirt last season so he’ll have, at best, 2 years as a starter post-Eifert. The scary thing is we will be dangerously thing at TE if we suffer injuries this year as we did not take another TE… opting to pass on Taylor McNamara who EE’d at Oklahoma. Had he been a regular NSD recruit, we would’ve likely offered him late in the cycle.

Sooooooooooo... Koyack does have potential?? nnniiiccceeee....:laugh:
 

JughedJones

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Great work and reps.

I've always had the belief that the best defensive backfields are a product of dominant D-lines. Forcing a team to give up the run and applying pressure on the QB can make average DBs look like all-Americans.

Here's hoping that line of thought pans out.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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Sooooooooooo... Koyack does have potential?? nnniiiccceeee....

Smart ***! Give lax a break.

I've always had the belief that the best defensive backfields are a product of dominant D-lines. Forcing a team to give up the run and applying pressure on the QB can make average DBs look like all-Americans.

I agree. What is more, I think Kelly is developing a whole bunch of thick-bodied burners that can cover, or bring pain from anywhere, (eg., Jamoris Slaughter.) We saw the machine in the first half of the bowl; it inexplicably disappeared in the second half.
 

Te'o4Heisman

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Great work and reps.

I've always had the belief that the best defensive backfields are a product of dominant D-lines. Forcing a team to give up the run and applying pressure on the QB can make average DBs look like all-Americans.

Here's hoping that line of thought pans out.

I agree, and also if Tee Shepard becomes the absolute lockdown corner that he has the potential to be it alleviated a LOT of pressure at the other CB position. If you have a guy who can virtually lock down one side of the field, or at least the opponents best WR by himself, it allows to do a lot of other things schematically to hide weaknesses.
 

phgreek

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Lax

confused why we have Keivarae Russel at WR...is that the staff's intent for him? I could accept slot...but anything in a true wideout confounds me. He seems a very smooth RB with vision...not that I know more than anyone else...it just seems counter intuitive to me.

Whats the motivation there?


EDIT: NEVERMIND...I wasn't understanding what you were actually saying...I get it...
 
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irishfanjho15

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Lax

confused why we have Keivarae Russel at WR...is that the staff's intent for him? I could accept slot...but anything in a true wideout confounds me. He seems a very smooth RB with vision...not that I know more than anyone else...it just seems counter intuitive to me.

Whats the motivation there?

Kelly talked about him yesterday in the presser as being a swing guy. One who can be both in the slot and at RB. A true skill guy who you get in space and create from anywhere on the field.
 

phgreek

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Kelly talked about him yesterday in the presser as being a swing guy. One who can be both in the slot and at RB. A true skill guy who you get in space and create from anywhere on the field.

thanks...had to re-read what lax said...I get it now...He wasn't saying wideout...he was saying slot...
 

autry_denson

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excellent, thoughtful post.

what often gets overlooked in discussions about recruiting and class rankings is how contingent they are on luck, chance, or the whims of 18 year olds with a lot on their minds who haven't been through the process before.

while the 2012 class is the example that's most fresh in our minds, the 2011 class provides an even better example. what would that class have looked like if aaron lynch did not make a last minute return after decommiting, if tuitt didn't decommit and then re-commit within 48 hours, and if ishaq williams did not choose ND over some more local schools that would have been natural fits?

in 2011 the whims of 18 year olds favored ND, but that won't always be the case. in 2012 we had more defections than late additions, but we still got the #2 QB in the class on the day he was supposed to report to LSU.

The point is recruiting classes are extremely unstable, and naturally teeter on the precarious edge of success or failure. what a coaching staff can do is go after every kid with intensity and diligence, and stick with every kid beyond the point where it's rational to do so. that's what this staff did. kelly and his staff are more diligent and relentless than anyone could hope for. this cycle things didn't break our way in all cases, last cycle they did. as long as we're in the conversation for a top 10 class year in and year out, we should have no complaints. if we string together a couple of years where things break our way, ND will field some great teams under Kelly.
 

Fbolt

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WR
Kelly has recruited 5 WRs over the past two years between Matthias Farley, DaVaris Daniels, Keivarae Russel, Chris Brown, and Justin Ferguson. DaVaris Daniels is marketed as the next ND megastar and Chris Brown has tremendous upside… and Keivarae Russel is an elite athlete for the slot position but isn’t proven. Justin Ferguson has the physical tools but lacks top end speed and has shown to have a case of the dropsies when he’s been on television. Farley is as likely to pan out as a WR prospect as he is to be switched over to CB. In general this group lacks depth but as long as DaVaris Daniels produces how he is expect to we should be OK here. Had we held onto Greenberry, this WR corps would be set up for dominance.

That's quite a bit of speculation (even more so with Greenberry) based on "potential". I look at our receiving corps as being under-acheivers. Other than Floyd, who else has produced at a high level...? I was hoping Theo would this past year-but still only flashes. Looking at Daniels, why couldn't he break through-even with Goodman in front of him-he couldn't. I like TJ, but his production has been quiet (40+ catches or something).

I have hope. Like Daniels being held back by the coaches. Floyd's recent comments on (Daniels?), Theo becoming more comfortable, TJ developing, and Brown/Fergie/Farley et al becoming surprise performers. Possible addition by subtraction, which has also been mentioned. Improved QB play (Hendrix/Golson). Hope springs eternal in my mind.

We all talk about development-myself included-I certainly Hope Kelly and staff can push this crop of WR in order to get to that high level.
 

tommyIRISH23

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It’s important to look at recruiting classes in 2 year blocks. That is, you can afford to have a bad class or two but you can rarely overcome bad classes back to back. It’s also important that classes compliment each other. If you “miss” at a position one year it’s important to load up at that position the next. In this case, you have Brian Kelly’s first two full classes as the first true opportunity for a snapshot of the direction the program is heading.

QB
Kelly landed Everett Golson and Gunner Kiel in back-to-back classes giving Notre Dame a bright future at QB. If there is one truism in college football it is that a gamebreaking QB can make average teams great, and poor QB play can make very good teams bad. Look no further than the FSU, Stanford and USC games for examples of how even if you have a Ferrari if the driver can’t drive stick well you’re not going anywhere fast. With Golson as a mobile pass-first QB with incredible arm strength and Kiel as a 6’4” 5:s: QB prospect it’s safe to say one of these two will pan out as the QB of the future and that Kelly hit a homerun at QB recruiting.

WR
Kelly has recruited 5 WRs over the past two years between Matthias Farley, DaVaris Daniels, Keivarae Russel, Chris Brown, and Justin Ferguson. DaVaris Daniels is marketed as the next ND megastar and Chris Brown has tremendous upside… and Keivarae Russel is an elite athlete for the slot position but isn’t proven. Justin Ferguson has the physical tools but lacks top end speed and has shown to have a case of the dropsies when he’s been on television. Farley is as likely to pan out as a WR prospect as he is to be switched over to CB. In general this group lacks depth but as long as DaVaris Daniels produces how he is expect to we should be OK here. Had we held onto Greenberry, this WR corps would be set up for dominance.

RB
Between Will Mahone, Cam McDaniel, George Atkinson, and Amir Carlisle we are great at RB. Amir Carlisle showed himself to be the best RB at USC last year as a true freshman before being derailed by injuries. Mahone can bring a one-cut physical brand of football to the Irish similar to what Jonas Gray provided as a senior. Atkinson has tremendous upside as an athlete and McDaniel seems like he’ll be one of those guys who will be ready when called upon. Overall, 5:s: RBs typically bust just as often as they pan out to be Adrian Peterson-esque megastars and this is a very well rounded corps of RBs with sufficient depth to play BCS caliber football. We did very well here.

TE
Only one TE has been sign in the previous two classes and that man is Ben Koyack. Koyack is supposed to have tremendous upside and develop into a dominant player with time. Unfortunately we burned his redshirt last season so he’ll have, at best, 2 years as a starter post-Eifert. The scary thing is we will be dangerously thing at TE if we suffer injuries this year as we did not take another TE… opting to pass on Taylor McNamara who EE’d at Oklahoma. Had he been a regular NSD recruit, we would’ve likely offered him late in the cycle.

OL
ND has brought in a total of 7 OL in the past two years, 3 of which were elite prospects. Matt Hegarty was the #3 OT and Jordan Prestwood was the #4 OT on 247 in a year that was weak with OL prospects; and this year Ronnie Stanley was a top 15 OT by just about every service. Beyond these highly ranked guys, ND also added Nick Martin who from early returns looks in line to be an over-achiever (compared to his physical measurements) much like his brother along with Brad Carrico, Conor Hanratty, and Mark Harrel. 7 is a pretty good number of total OL for a 2 year haul and it looks like ND will target at least 3 and maybe 4 next year with mega-recruit Steve Elmer already onboard… so all things considered, we seem to be in good shape with both depth and talent here. The Jordan Prestwood transfer was absolutely huge.

DL
Without a doubt, DL is the position where we have the most depth and talent between the last two classes. It’s hard to determine where exactly to classify guys like Ishaq Williams and Troy Niklas but for argument’s sake I consider our DL haul to be Aaron Lynch, Tony Springmann, Stephon Tuitt, Chase Hounshell, Troy Niklas, Sheldon Day, and Jarron Jones. No matter what way you slice it, that’s a ton of talent… and then you also have to remember that Louis Nix is in the same class (eligibility wise) as the 2011 guys. Really good work on the defensive side of the trenches.

OLB
Ishaq Williams, Ben Councell, and Romeo Okwara appear to be the only OLBs we’ve recruited the past two years… but then you have to consider the prospect of guys like Shumate and Baratti and Niklas contributing in LB type roles at times. Not a position with a lot of depth, and one of the reasons why I wish we’d taken a chance on Ekanem, but the talent sure seems to be there.

ILB
This an interesting position where we’ve taken Anthony Rabasa, Jarrett Grace and Joe Schmidt as a walk-on… and took them all in the 2011 class. Not a lot of depth or highly rated talent here and passing on ILBs in this cycle seems interesting.

CB
Jalen Brown, Josh Atkinson, and Tee Shephard are the 3 CBs we’ve managed to sign in the past 2 years. Both Brown and Atkinson have elite foot speed but were both rated far lower than Tee Shepherd by the experts. Conversely, Tee Shephard is supposed to be a lockdown corner but lacks the 40 time you usually see from the Champ Baileys of the world. This is probably the position of most concern for us moving forward as you’d like to have at least 2 CBs per class. This situation is better if you consider Eilar Hardy a CB and he doesn’t lose a step from his knee injury.

S
Between Chris Badger, Nick Baratti, Elijah Shumate, CJ Prosise, John Turner, and Eilar Hardy; Notre Dame has acquired 6 safety prospects. That’s a good number for depth, however the bad news is that none of them are very prototypical highly rated safety types… Elijah Shumate and Eilar Hardy are both consensus 4:s: players but also projected as possibly hybrid type fits in the defense. Eilar may play corner and Shumate may play some DOLB. CJ Prosise and Nick Baratti seem to both have high upside for different reasons but will take some time to develop. No one is really sure what to expect from John Turner and Chris Badger.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The takeaway from these classes is that we are stacked at QB and on the DL… arguably the two most important positions on the field along with OL. We also got a very deep group of OL and RB prospects and top notch talent at TE, OLB, and WR even if we lack a little depth. ILB is an interesting position but not really a concern as both Rabasa and Grace were highly rated and it’s a position of depth in other classes. CB and S are nightmares where a couple injuries or “upside” prospects that don’t pan out could spell serious doom and gloom. We lack depth at CB and can’t really afford to move over any WRs (except maybe Farley) because of a lack of depth at WR.

Taking an analysis of the classes a bit further, it’s quite clear to me that we’re moving towards more of a hybrid 4-3 than a 3-4. By this I mean it looks like we’re going to use a front 4 of something like Lynch—Nix—Tuitt—Ishaq/Shembo with Ishaq/Shembo occasionally dropping and playing in space but most of the time bringing the pain. On the other side I expect to see Councell emerge and be complimented by some hybrid S/LB type guys… this position will be the wildcard of coverage and bringing a speed rush. So that all looks very promising. It appears our season will hinge on Austin Collinsworth emerging at S or Zeke Motta learning how to run fast… plus Benett Jackson and 1 of Atkinson/Brown/Shephard stepping up big time.

On offense… it is what it is. We have our QBs and skill players of the future; but it’s unclear if this is their year to shine or not. I personally expect Theo Riddick and Cierre Wood to be our RBs with TJ Jones playing slot for the next two years while Keivarae Russel learns how to play WR and a pretty wide open rotation at our outside WR spots. DaVaris Daniels is the only young gun that needs to contribute this yea for to be successful… everyone else is OK to take some development time.

So overall, Kelly is doing good but not great. He has some of the same issues Weis had with his classes albeit at different positions. Weis had huge holes on the DL and loaded up on highly rated talent everywhere else. Kelly has holes at the DB position. One of the most interesting things to look at is how Weis recruited nearly all football-first kids selling them on his super bowl rings... then got minimal effort, a rash of transfers, and a sense of entitlement. Kelly has recruited almost exclusively NOT football first guys... and so far has much better retainage. We'll see how the on field results come along. Next year is going to be a very big year on the field because we're going to need to pull in a class of 20+ kids with a lot of talent at CB, S, OL, and LB. ND cannot afford whiffs next year because if they miss on a lot of prospects the next two year snapshot will be very ugly. Very, very ugly.

So that's my opinion on how things look in the aftermath of the epic string of CB misses and Deontay-to-Houston fiasco that will live in infamy. I think we're going to be OK as long as we take care of business next year. What do you all think?

Lax,

Very well thought out post. Posts like these are the main reason I am a member of Irish Envy. The detail, and time you put into writing this is awesome. Thank you very much.

Your analysis is spot on. ND is loaded in some areas, and dangerously thin in other areas. I didn't realize that we have neglected TE, thats a mild concern, but I think next class we grab 2. TE is the unsung hero of the offense, they do it all, and when they screw up everyone see's it.

CB- I am very very nervous about CB. It's a crucial position, and can be exploited by great QB's. But, I have to agree with the poster who said something along the lines of a monster Dline that attacks succesfully will make average corners look great. My only worry is against SC and in a BCS bowl. SC and a BCS bowl team Oline (outside of the ACC/BE) will beable to win its share of battles even with the best pass rush. And, I love Diaco, but I think he is talented young coordinator that is growing into a great coordinator. I am not confident he can win a defensive chest match against a skilled offensive line with great talent on the field, and in the coaches box.

WR- I think we are going to see big production from our offense just out of neccessity. Big Mike is not here anymore, and the ball is going to have to be distributed. I think we will see our recievers really gell, and become playmakers. I feel like they never got in sync, and on the same page because, rightfully so, Mike got the majority of the passes. The guys have to be fired up with the shot of getting their shot.
 

stlnd01

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Nice work, Lax.
A couple of thoughts.

On the d-backs. Yeah, dangerously thin at the corners. We better hope Tee can walk the walk. And, while I generally agree that the best pass defense is a good pass rush, I also think that theory holds more true against lesser teams. I look at the WR talent at USC, and those three 5-star o-linemen Stanford pulled in yesterday, and I think Tee and the gang will have their hands full come 2014.

On tight ends, yeah, when you break it down like this it's rather shocking that we didn't pull in at least one this time around - especially since no one but Eifert has actually ever done much. It seemed like the only one we were even in on was McNamara.

As for the wide receivers, I'm of the opinion that better QB play will create more better WRs. Floyd was great, obviously, but he was also a crutch for Rees. A QB who can stretch the field, both vertically and horizontally, will create more opportunities for smaller guys like TJ Jones and deep threats like Chris Brown - the kinds of receivers who've too often disappeared in our offense the last two years.

And, while one more O-lineman would have been nice, I really like what Kelly's doing in the trenches. It astounds me how tall all these guys are.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Great post, and I agree with most of your points. However, I don't think the 2-year snapshot is the best way to gauge depth for any given position.

For instance, why do you think we're one injury away from disaster at TE? We'll have 4/4 for 2012, which includes the preseason favorite to win the Mackey (Eifert), a 5:s: recruit (Koyack), a 4:s: recruit (Welch), and a 3:s: recruit (Golic). If that's not ideal depth, it's pretty damned close.

We'll lose Eifert in 2013, which means the staff either brings in 2 TEs, or 1 TE + Golic if they end up whiffing.

Maybe we can justify carrying 5 TEs if we start running a lot more 2-TE sets, but at the moment, TE is among the least of our worries.

I'm also confused by your opinion of our ILB depth. We were actually overloaded in 2011 with 9/8 on scholarship, and we'll have 8/8 for 2012 if McDonald comes back. For 2013, we'll have 5 or 6 before 2013 recruits depending on if Calabrese gets a 5Y. So we'll need 2-3 ILBs next cycle. That's hardly a big deal.

The only real hole on our roster is CB, and as long as Shepard pans out, we can certainly make up for it with 2-3 CBs in the next cycle.
 

Fbolt

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Peeps using the term "dangerously thin" for any position on our current roster is not correct. We experienced dangerously thin after Willingham left when we had no-zero-OL depth and the BG game was modified due to the lack of that depth.

We are def in a much better position now.
 

IrishLax

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Great post, and I agree with most of your points. However, I don't think the 2-year snapshot is the best way to gauge depth for any given position.

For instance, why do you think we're one injury away from disaster at TE? We'll have 4/4 for 2012, which includes the preseason favorite to win the Mackey (Eifert), a 5:s: recruit (Koyack), a 4:s: recruit (Welch), and a 3:s: recruit (Golic). If that's not ideal depth, it's pretty damned close.

We'll lose Eifert in 2013, which means the staff either brings in 2 TEs, or 1 TE + Golic if they end up whiffing.

Maybe we can justify carrying 5 TEs if we start running a lot more 2-TE sets, but at the moment, TE is among the least of our worries.

I don't disagree with any of that, in fact I said we are "dangerously thin if we suffer injuries" as in multiple. And the only reason I said that is because Golic is both unproven and not highly rated meaning there's no way you can count on him to step up... so we're basically playing with 3 TEs on the roster unless Ragone gets a 6th year.

I'm also confused by your opinion of our ILB depth. We were actually overloaded in 2011 with 9/8 on scholarship, and we'll have 8/8 for 2012 if McDonald comes back. For 2013, we'll have 5 or 6 before 2013 recruits depending on if Calabrese gets a 5Y. So we'll need 2-3 ILBs next cycle. That's hardly a big deal.

The only real hole on our roster is CB, and as long as Shepard pans out, we can certainly make up for it with 2-3 CBs in the next cycle.

We agree here, my "not a lot of depth" was in reference to the past two classes only. We have lots of depth in the previous classes, but not landing anyone this year (not even a hybrid ILN/OLB guy like Perkins or Ekanem could have been) means taking at least 2 guys next year is a necessity, similar to how CB was this year. And we all saw how CB worked out. I think this is why it's important to have balanced 2 year blocks of players because eventually every 2 year block becomes the upperclassmen of your team. If you carry gaps at positions in your 2 year blocks eventually you are left with a situation where you have to have a Soph or Frosh start.
 

IrishLax

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Peeps using the term "dangerously thin" for any position on our current roster is not correct. We experienced dangerously thin after Willingham left when we had no-zero-OL depth and the BG game was modified due to the lack of that depth.

We are def in a much better position now.

We're certainly dangerously thin at CB. You can assume that in any given season about one kid at each position (QB excluded) will go down with injury. So right now we only have 5 warm bodies which after injury will be 4 and many spread teams require us to use 3 CBs. So with any bad luck, we're left in a situation where we can barely field the required amount of guys... much less those who are ready to play.
 

IrishLax

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That's quite a bit of speculation (even more so with Greenberry) based on "potential". I look at our receiving corps as being under-acheivers.

I don't understand these two sentences in the context of the thread. We're talking about brand new recruits/redshirts. Of course it's going to be speculation... none of them have seen the field. And on the flip side, how are you suggesting guys who have not suited up yet and taken a single snap could be underachievers? Don't confuse the current entrenched players with the new blood coming in.

Other than Floyd, who else has produced at a high level...? I was hoping Theo would this past year-but still only flashes. Looking at Daniels, why couldn't he break through-even with Goodman in front of him-he couldn't. I like TJ, but his production has been quiet (40+ catches or something).

Same as above, why are we talking about production? Why are we talking about Theo? It's not that Daniels couldn't "break through" per se. Kelly opted to redshirt him this year. Phillip Daniels and DaVaris have both talked at length about this decision to save a year of eligibility.

I have hope. Like Daniels being held back by the coaches. Floyd's recent comments on (Daniels?), Theo becoming more comfortable, TJ developing, and Brown/Fergie/Farley et al becoming surprise performers. Possible addition by subtraction, which has also been mentioned. Improved QB play (Hendrix/Golson). Hope springs eternal in my mind.

We all talk about development-myself included-I certainly Hope Kelly and staff can push this crop of WR in order to get to that high level.

See, I think you and I actually agree. I have "hope" that we'll be OK here and I would be confident we'd be OK if Greenberry had stayed on board giving us 6 WRs between the past 2 classes. I agree we haven't seen anything proven; but I think it's odd to have expected production from one class that hasn't stepped on campus yet and another class who had a kid who's been raved about and opted to redshirt + 1 project player in his 3rd year of football who was guaranteed to redshirt whether he played DB or WR. Only time will tell how these guys actually work out.
 

NYMIKE6

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We're certainly dangerously thin at CB. You can assume that in any given season about one kid at each position (QB excluded) will go down with injury. So right now we only have 5 warm bodies which after injury will be 4 and many spread teams require us to use 3 CBs. So with any bad luck, we're left in a situation where we can barely field the required amount of guys... much less those who are ready to play.

I understand and agree with your concern but i also find comfort in the newly found "STAR" position..... Finding very athletic Safetys to come down and play the slot or rush will compensate for the lack of depth at the corner position....
 

IrishLax

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Good work, bro. Could you explain a little more about the "football first and not football first" comment? Just not exactly sure what you mean.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Yeah sure.

Jimmy Clausen was a football first guy. In his words, he came to ND because Weis would best prepare him for the NFL. When he was signing, he also focused on all of the records he was going to break/championships he was going to win. Weis recruited a lot of these guys... 5:s: style players at skill positions who signed up to kick some *** and then go pro. Not all of Weis's guys were like this, he definitely had some non-football first guys too, but a lot of them were.

Almost all of Kelly's guys are not football first individuals. I said this in another thread, but the only guys in this class who came off as mostly football-first were Greenberry and Kiel. And then look what happened with Greenebrry. Almost every single kid Kelly has signed is a kid interested in Notre Dame for what Notre Dame offers... not Notre Dame for NFL prep and balling out. Look at Keivarae Russel... class president and signed with Notre Dame because we have a "worldwide degree" that can help him anywhere he goes in life.

What happened with Weis's guys is that when they got passed up on the depth chart they said "f*ck this" and transferred. There are so many examples. Conrad Reuland. Shaq Evans after Kelly took over and he was listed 3rd on a preliminary spring depth chart. Kids quit instead of working hard to earn the spot that maybe wasn't given to them immediately.
 

IrishLax

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I understand and agree with your concern but i also find comfort in the newly found "STAR" position..... Finding very athletic Safetys to come down and play the slot or rush will compensate for the lack of depth at the corner position....

Agreed. That's a really good observation; if we only have to use 2 CBs full time and can fill in with an athletic S against 3/4 WR sets then we're going to be in a much better situation. Guys like Eilar Hardy and CJ Prosise come to mind immediately as guys who can play a hybrid S/CB role and guys like Shumate and Baratti have flexibility in the other direction.
 

NDhoosier

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Great post Irishlax!

I think our WR core will be just fine. Losing Floyd was a big loss, no argument, but sometimes other players can get stuck in the shadow of a star player like Floyd. Now that Floyd isnt there, each and every WR will get the chance to step up their game and make big plays. When a big play was needed, it was Floyd who got the call, now the others will get the chance. I actually think our WR core will be STRONG, and if we land Neal, I think it will be SCARY GOOD (my prediction though). Plus, they had Tommy Rees throwing to them last year, lets wait to see what happens with a 4* recruit starts throwing them the ball...

I am not worried about TE for this year, but I am worried about TEs for this recruiting class because it seems Kelly is putting all of his eggs in 1 or 2 baskets (Adam has scholarships to about every school in the country it seems). I really want 2 TEs in this recruiting class with one of them ranked in the top 3 at the position. If we dont get 2 solid TEs, the position may be weak 2 years from now.

^LB is very similar to my comments on TEs, but Kelly seems to be spreading his eggs around more tactically. Though I would like to see 3-4 LB in the 2013 class.

As for DBs, if we can get a Poole/Darby/Tee type of player at the CB position, I will be happy even if we get a couple more players like Standifer would have been - low 4*, high 3* type of CBs
 
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ND_HAS_RISEN

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Lax,

Very well thought out post. Posts like these are the main reason I am a member of Irish Envy. The detail, and time you put into writing this is awesome. Thank you very much.

LAX knocked it out of the park! Well done and thanks for read!
 
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