ND Admission: Myth vs Reality

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Notre Dame Admissions: myth vs. reality - Page 2 - southbendtribune.com

Myth vs. reality: Grades and test scores mean everything.

“First of all, we don’t have a minimum GPA or test score for either the general student population or for athletes,” Bishop said. “There’s not a formula, but there is a philosophy.

“I’ve done a lot of research on this,” Bishop said. “When you’re loading test scores and grades ... and you’re correlating success in high school to success in college, even the best universities doing the most stringent research can usually explain about 50 percent of the student’s success based upon their (high school) academics.

“The other 50 percent is determined by a lot of personal choices that kids make. So since half the success is going to be how we read them personally, you can’t have it as a numbers game. You really have to look at each individual case.”

When looking at the raw numbers, though, Bishop said high school GPA is a 2∏ to three times more reliable predictor of how the student will perform in college than standardized test scores (ACT and SAT).

“At times, we’ll look at a kid on paper,” Bishop said, “Then when we meet them, we’ll see what they say. We’ll look a kid in the eye and talk to him very candidly. There are kids that can’t look us in the eye, aren’t even able to communicate that they get the academic side. If that happens we’ll tell the coach, and we’re done.

Myth vs. reality: The admissions bar has moved up and down significantly over the past 30 years.

Bishop said there is no data to support that, either on the front end, in terms of GPAs and test scores, or the back end, in terms of graduation rates. In fact, ND’s last three football classes have ranked second, first and first nationally in graduation rates.

The latest speculation is that the bar has dropped, to make winning easier for current head coach Brian Kelly.

“I’m a big believer in when anecdotes are being thrown around you go back and look at the data,” Bishop said. “Since you can’t look at graduation data yet for these recent classes, we look at the admissions data, and they’re right on track with previous years.

“There’s not more at the bottom, and actually they had a few more at the top.”

Myth vs. reality: Each ND coach has a certain number of “exemptions.”
Bishop said there’s no such thing, with either football players or the general student population, but there are close calls. Always, though, the admissions office has the final say on those.

“Often times we eliminate the type of applicant that we’re not willing to admit early in the recruitment process,” he said.

“I think naturally there’s always going to be tensions between admissions and athletics,” Mundy said. “And I think that’s a good thing. You should find that at any school. There should always be a dynamic of recruited athletes who you have some discussion and debate over.”

Bishop references a book called “The Shape of the River” when explaining why Notre Dame took a chance on players like Foley, Rice and Robinson in the past and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

 

[magogian]

Are these articles partially in reaction to the hit piece by the ignorant Brian Hamilton?

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Another article by Hansen today, this one on the disciplinary system.

Has Notre Dame's disciplinary system been balanced? - southbendtribune.com

 

[Cali_domer]

Thanks for posting, great read.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Another article by Hansen today, this one on the disciplinary system.

Has Notre Dame's disciplinary system been balanced? - southbendtribune.com

Btw there are already some pretty bold comments on this article as you could imagine..

sregor at 10:18 AM August 22, 2011
It would be impossible to consider whether ND's disciplinary system has been balanced without careful review of all cases. What is profoundly obvious, however, is that it is not effective! It is also devoid of values!

What happened to Catholic values of personal responsibility, cura personalis, social justice? Is is really OK to nuture "students" as incipient alcoholics who disturb neighbors and destroy property? Are these really the "normal" behaviors of "kids?" Should any student with repeated underage drinking and a DUI be representing the university?

Until the alumni collectively value the production of responsible citizens above the chance for winning football teams (and how's that been working for ya?), Notre Dame will be a disgrace to its faith and to the system of higher education in this nation.

neighborhoodie at 9:38 AM August 22, 2011
Oh, give me a break!! The lacrosse incident; like the ND "hockey house" street brawl, the apartment house arrests, and the Washington St. arrests all started as excessive,overindulgent, giant and illegal (underage) parties. Abusive to their neighbors, and inevitably drunken and abusive to the police. POOR STUDENTS, they can't brawl in the streets, or throw people and things out of windows, or totally disrupt their neighbors without THEIR rights being violated. I can assure you that if these things were happening in Mr. Jack Pierce's neighborhood back home, the shoe would be on the other foot!! These students need MORE DISCIPLINE, not less!! The "teachable moment" should occur when they're hauling multiple beer kegs into their house--NOT when the police have to arrive at 2 or 3 in the morning!! The University of NOTRE DRUNK should think about the neighborhoods that they are destroying, in the name of these drunken and abusive brawlers.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Those comments are hilarious and sad.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Those comments are hilarious and sad.

Street brawling and destruction of property? Seriously, townies?

"Notre Dame kids? GET OFF MY LAWN!"

 

[GoldenDomer87]

The Hate?

The Hate?

I don't know all incidents that happen at ND, but I trust them to do the right thing. One of the quotes talked about underage drinking, if I read it right. I would say underage drinking is a national problem not just a ND problem. I would be willing to bet everyone, who drinks alcohol, had a beer before the legal age. I had my first beer and then first legal beer with my dad. I think it is just silly for someone to despise ND because some of their football players were drinking before 21. It happens at every college campus. I'm not saying it is right, just adding perspective. Isn't there a saying about glass houses?

As for Floyd, I think he lost about 4 months of being with the team. I think Kelly handled it brilliantly. Sure you could suspend him 5 games, but would that actually change his view on the issue. Floyd did his time, whether you disagree with it or not, and changed his attitude toward drinking and driving, which is most important. Normally you just hear a player gets suspended, end of story. Brian Kelly talked about being a man, making the right choice, and owning the issue. That is what impressed me most.

I don't understand how people have such hate for ND. Look at what is going on with LSU and its players. Jefferson was alleged to do some soccer style kick to the head and the person had to go to the hospital. That's assault and battery. Where are those angels who jump to point out ND's faults.

Sorry, rant over.

EDIT: In the end, we are talking about 18-23 year olds, some who have never had discipline or the sense of right or wrong.

 

[Rocket89]

The King of Spades laughs at those comments from the article.

 

[Riddickulous]

"If you want to come to Notre Dame and get an education, we'd love to have you. If you don't, we don't want you, go home."

LOU.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Street brawling and destruction of property? Seriously, townies?

"Notre Dame kids? GET OFF MY LAWN!"

Gotta love the double standard:

"GET OFF MY LAWN YOU IMMATURE JERKS, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING MY PROPERTY VALUE SKY HIGH......"

 

[adsnorri]

Rocket- that looks like a king of diamond to me.

Irish steel- property tax isnt very nice to those people. Still a double standard, i agree.

We are always going to have the haters no matter what situation it is. Jealousy is a common emotion. However, I do feel bad for the old timers that live close to the university. ND is basically dropping student housing right into neighborhoods.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Gotta love the double standard:

"GET OFF MY LAWN YOU IMMATURE JERKS, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING MY PROPERTY VALUE SKY HIGH......"

That still bothers me. There's always a vocal minority of townies who complain endlessly about ND, but it's literally the life-blood of South Bend. If ND disappeared tomorrow, South Bend would shrivel up and die like so many other rust-belt towns; so excuse me if I'm not sympathetic to a few locals who are morally indignant that college kids like to drink and party every now and then.

It's such a silly mischaracterization of the average student, too. A large majority live on campus; most are as smart, clean-cut and courteous as you'll find at any university in the nation. Yet because 20-30% of the student body prefers to live off campus (mainly so they can party), ND is a disgrace to Catholics everywhere. Call the Pope! Call the Excise Cops!

 

[Rhode Irish]

In response to the reader comments on the article posted earlier, I share this clip:

<object width="420" height="245" id="msnbc6ce6c9" classid="clsid27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=10,0,0,0"><param name="movie" value="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545640" /><param name="FlashVars" value="launch=44181387&width=420&height=245" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="wmode" value="transparent" /><embed name="msnbc6ce6c9" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545640" width="420" height="245" FlashVars="launch=44181387&width=420&height=245" allowscriptaccess="always" allowFullScreen="true" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed></object><p style="font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #999; margin-top: 5px; background: transparent; text-align: center; width: 420px;">Visit msnbc.com for <a style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com">breaking news</a>, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032507" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">world news</a>, and <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032072" style="text-decoration:none !important; border-bottom: 1px dotted #999 !important; font-weight:normal !important; height: 13px; color:#5799DB !important;">news about the economy</a></p>

Regardless of how you feel about the host, his program, or what the guest has to say, the reason I am posting this is because of the reverence the host shows for Notre Dame (towards the end of the clip (8:45 or so)). I think this is an example of the way most people around the country view the university, so the "crazies" criticizing the school for losing touch with its mission can be dismissed as such, in my opinion.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't know all incidents that happen at ND, but I trust them to do the right thing. One of the quotes talked about underage drinking, if I read it right. I would say underage drinking is a national problem not just a ND problem. I would be willing to bet everyone, who drinks alcohol, had a beer before the legal age. I had my first beer and then first legal beer with my dad. I think it is just silly for someone to despise ND because some of their football players were drinking before 21. It happens at every college campus. I'm not saying it is right, just adding perspective. Isn't there a saying about glass houses?

As for Floyd, I think he lost about 4 months of being with the team. I think Kelly handled it brilliantly. Sure you could suspend him 5 games, but would that actually change his view on the issue. Floyd did his time, whether you disagree with it or not, and changed his attitude toward drinking and driving, which is most important. Normally you just hear a player gets suspended, end of story. Brian Kelly talked about being a man, making the right choice, and owning the issue. That is what impressed me most.

I don't understand how people have such hate for ND. Look at what is going on with LSU and its players. Jefferson was alleged to do some soccer style kick to the head and the person had to go to the hospital. That's assault and battery. Where are those angels who jump to point out ND's faults.

Sorry, rant over.

EDIT: In the end, we are talking about 18-23 year olds, some who have never had discipline or the sense of right or wrong.

Your rant is justified. The problem is South Bend has a large portion of people that do NOT want it to be a college town. Never mind the gangs and robberies and other degenerates... it's the those damn kids with their boom boxes and skateboards that need more discipline!

Truth be told, when I was at Notre Dame, I really disliked the SB community. Notre Dame donates tons of money to St. Joe's County each year... not to mention what ND pumps into the economy by just existing... and you just have so many ungrateful pricks. On flip side, I LOVED my neighbors... but just in general the population there irked me. Like we owe them something.

I dunno why it bothers me so much but I'm just so sick of people taking shots and ND for no good reason. Truth is ND kids are just about the best behaved college students in the country.

 

[loomis41973]

Another interesting comment.

TheFutureIsNow at 11:30 AM August 22, 2011
"The Oberserver", the campus newspaper, did a story a few years back comparing the admission portfolios of the incoming class as a whole and the football players who were also admitted as part of that same class. The findings: SAT scores of football players were 25 percent lower than the rest of the class. GPAs were lower, too. The data analyzed also suggested that the same discrepancy was historical, not an aberration. "The Observer", certainly, isn't a "hostile" newspaper, so it couldn't be accused of being a "hater". So it appears the "truth" lies somewhere between fact and talk.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Another interesting comment.

TheFutureIsNow at 11:30 AM August 22, 2011
"The Oberserver", the campus newspaper, did a story a few years back comparing the admission portfolios of the incoming class as a whole and the football players who were also admitted as part of that same class. The findings: SAT scores of football players were 25 percent lower than the rest of the class. GPAs were lower, too. The data analyzed also suggested that the same discrepancy was historical, not an aberration. "The Observer", certainly, isn't a "hostile" newspaper, so it couldn't be accused of being a "hater". So it appears the "truth" lies somewhere between fact and talk.

Why is it interesting? The SBT article didn't claim that ND football players have GPAs and test scores competitive enough to get in independent of their athletics. Save maybe a few exceptionally unselective schools, I doubt any FBS program can make such a boast.

ND is different because its players are expected to take real classes with the rest of the student body, so they graduate with valuable degrees. Thus, GPAs and test scores for ND athletes must indicate that they're capable of handling the course work, and they have to convince the Admissions Office that they're serious about being student athletes.

GPA/test scores that indicate one is capable of handling ND course work and GPA/ test scores that are high enough for one to be accepted on academic merit alone are very different standards.

 

[irishtrain]

Great post I just read them on another site-its about time the Notre Dame difference is expressed. How bout the stuff about the guy offered $100,000 to go to another school-real classy.

 

[BostonND]

What site is this? I'd like to read that

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Your rant is justified. The problem is South Bend has a large portion of people that do NOT want it to be a college town. Never mind the gangs and robberies and other degenerates... it's the those damn kids with their boom boxes and skateboards that need more discipline!

Truth be told, when I was at Notre Dame, I really disliked the SB community. Notre Dame donates tons of money to St. Joe's County each year... not to mention what ND pumps into the economy by just existing... and you just have so many ungrateful pricks. On flip side, I LOVED my neighbors... but just in general the population there irked me. Like we owe them something.

I dunno why it bothers me so much but I'm just so sick of people taking shots and ND for no good reason. Truth is ND kids are just about the best behaved college students in the country.

That reminds me of something that happened in my home town a few months ago. I live about 5 miles outside of Camden, NJ. In Camden they have a fairly decent concert arena that always draws big venues, and big crowds from the suburbs.

Now, I am sure most of you are familiar with Camden, its a cesspool, syringes on the ground everywhere, drugs on every corner, gangs shooting who they want/when they want, entitled little rats running around everywhere looking for handouts, rapes...etc

Now, the arena had a pretty big concert at the start of summer, 100's of jobs started as a result, and it brought some money to the city. But, the place did get littered with trash everywhere, and was a mess to clean up. The people of the city banned together, and complained that white suburban kids are ruining the city, and trashing it. They want to stop the concerts from happening in the future....blah blah blah played a few race cards, and everything else.

Now, a few weeks later, a inner city 17 yr old kid got his head taken off by a shotgun at 2 in the afternoon on a nice bright sunny day. Cops were walking up and down the street begging for a lead, trying to see if someone saw something. Nothing, no one came through with anything.

Any anti-violence protests on city hall for the nations highest murder rate? Nope.

Locals will complain about anything, and everything. If ND disappeared from South Bend, it would turn into Detroit. People are ungrateful, and delusional.

 

[nlroma1o]

Locals will complain about anything, and everything. If ND disappeared from South Bend, it would turn into Detroit. People are ungrateful, and delusional.

South Bend already IS Detroit. My parents live in Granger, which is 10 mins away in the 'burbs. South Bend doesn't want to help South Bend. They dont want to put the money into refurbishing housing downtown. South Bend doesn't want to put the money into finding investors to put apartments downtown. South Bend wont put in a grocery store down town. South Bend wont put a drug store down town. South Bend will never increase its value until they do the basics. They have bars and restaurants downtown and thats about it. Until they can draw in the young professionals who live in the area and begin to build back up the downtown area, South Bend will only continue to get worse....

 

[GainesvilleIrish]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only thing keeping SB from being a ghost town, ND? No telling how much money the school brings to the town annually.

 

[nlroma1o]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only thing keeping SB from being a ghost town, ND? No telling how much money the school brings to the town annually.

Downtown SB is hood. Out side of downtown there are plenty of business, primarily manufacturing that is within a 30 mile radius to keep the entire area, beter know as "Michiana" alive and well. But even with ND there, the city of South Bend is rubbish. Go east of campus going towards the mall and that is where granger starts. That part of town wouldnt be affected as much if ND left.