The 85 Scholarship Limit

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
You know what else happened in 1972?

Father Ted admitted women to Notre Dame as full time students. Since then ND's enrollment I believe [h]as almost doubled.

Father Ted was very active in Presidential Committees on Civil and Social Rights. After trying to broker a merger with St Mary's unsuccessfully, he just opened the doors of ND to women - the same year Title IX became law - the same year NCAA Football Scholarships went into effect.

Just to be a picky-arse, the enrollment has not doubled since women have been included in the mix. It's remained about the same. As I recall, the total number of students, undergraduate and graduate, was roughly 10,000 when I was there from 1970 to 1974. I believe that that's pretty much where the numbers stand today.

The "merger" with Saint Mary's fell through because the Board at SMC saw it for what it was – a hostile takeover rather than an equitable blending of the two institutions. The initial class of women at ND consisted almost entirely of transfers from St. Mary's, first year students excluded.

Ted The Head gained my undying respect when he was "fired" by Tricky Dicky [Nixon] as head of a Commission on Civil Rights (RMN appointed him) when he refused to "toe the line."

Back to the topic du jour. I'm in the camp that believes in limiting the number of scholarships for student athletes (athlete students[???]) in money making major collegiate sports. The possible pitfalls and perils of unlimited scholarships are too many and too unsettling to true competition.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Didn't people used to say with a straight face that some of Leahy's 2nd string teams could legitimately compete with some NFL teams?

Remind me to relay a funny story from a friend of mine who was the last coach hired on the Brennan staff, and was a '55 graduate. The punch line is a smaller school in Michigan wanted to tune up for its NC small school Championship against ND's freshmen. My friend said no, instead they sent the Interhall champs. They were huge and they pounded this small schools team into the ground. Murderized 'em. and that wasn't even the freshmen, let alone the second team, when the first cutbacks on schollarships were done.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
Just to be a picky-arse, the enrollment has not doubled since women have been included in the mix. It's remained about the same. As I recall, the total number of students, undergraduate and graduate, was roughly 10,000 when I was there from 1970 to 1974. I believe that that's pretty much where the numbers stand today.

...

Not picky at all. I tried to find ND enrollment data for the years corresponding to the NCAA scholarship changes but to no avail. So I appreciate your input. I was hoping you, OMM, or ND58 would stroll down memory lane for some historic background.

I did find current enrollment for undergrad and grad numbers around 10,000 which puts the undergrads at around 8,000. I had read an ND piece which noted during Ted's time that "enrollment, faculty, and degrees awarded all doubled ... and the campus physical facilities grew from 48 to 88 buildings ..." That actually was for his entire tenure from 1952 to 1987 not just since 1972.

In the absence of historic data I worked backwards from today's 8,000 undergrads (minus the double) to get 4,000. With the student population today half women (I saw no breakout of women undergrads v. grads) that seems to me to mean a student body of 4,000 men today versus 4,000 men back in 1952. By those numbers all or most of the growth seems to be by women. But again, I have found no actual enrollment data for past years.

I also read ND had a building boom after WWI, between 1919 and 1933, when the enrollment tripled. But didn't find specific numbers.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,965
Reaction score
6,453
I have retired from IE but I'll peek back in this once to support BGIF's terrific historical re-cap of the gradual curbing of unlimited scholarship abuses and the concomitant evening out [somewhat] of competition. BGIF as usual deserves massive reps, and publicly saying so is best. IE is lucky to have him.

During my years at ND we were in the opposite situation "on the field" due to the two-way play rule. Only two substitutions were allowed when offense changed to defense. Just previously, however, one of our Johnny's favorite guys, Johnny Lattner, proved that you could be better than anyone in the country on both sides of the ball as both AA RB and DB. I just missed Hornung, but he was VERY good on defense, too. Gripes about him winning the Heisman on that losing team are crap. Watch his films --- hero against all odds.

This rule really hamstrung coaching staffs as BGIF has said, and particularly at positions like receiver. Can the guy you want in there play defensive end?? Your halfbacks were your corners, and your safety was often your ace DB who covered their mistakes, and substituted for your usually incompetent quarterback.

When two-way football came back and essentially free substitution arose, Bear Bryant instituted the Alabama method of winning by recruiting everybody who could walk and chew gum simultaneously. He held football camp with several hundred players blundering around the fields. This was like an elaborate try-out scheme, and he could choose the hundred or so that he actually wanted to concentrate on. BGIF is, as usual, right in that he "drafted" some players just to keep them away from Georgia or Tennessee.

Since he had early success, and was already semi-legendary, he talked the administration [read: rich alumni] into building the "Bryant Hilton", a pseudo-dorm just for athletes, and of luxury accommodations. [relative to student dorms anyway]. This made recruiting 80 guys per year much easier, and depleted the athlete pool by 50+ good players for other schools --- plus remember that the total number of really good high school players was far less back then in pre-NFL ambition days.

Bear Bryant is responsible for many rules changes due to his "creative abuse" of legality. It is warming to see that Nick Saban is energetically carrying on his tradition today.

p.s. on the topic of enrollment: my memory of 1958-1962 is that we had about 8000 students on campus, which included the graduate school students. There was a fairly high attrition rate back then between freshman and sophomore years, which probably isn't so fierce today. My incoming chemistry class was around 70. We graduated 19. Many of those others continued by transferring to other curricula, but a bunch just left school for easier pastures.
 
Last edited:

Ironman8

Jaqen H'ghar
Messages
11,652
Reaction score
902
Yes that was intended at you and the Polacks.

For those that don't know Ironman and I attended high schools who are arch rivals. His school is the venerable one having been founded in 1915 while mine was a Baby Boomer school opening in '59. Don Bosco was founded for Polish immigrants across the Hudson River in Westchester Co as the Don Bosco Polish School (rumor has it they were called Ironheads long before their nickname was sanitized to Ironmen). Their school burned down there and they moved to a farm in Bergen County. They changed the name to Don Bosco Institute so the Dutch (who settled in the area in the early 1600's) wouldn't take offense to all those foreigners. That they were Catholic was bad enough. Later they dropped the "Institute" (another cause for local jokes) and became Don Bosco Prep.

Bergen Catholic has a bigger enrollment but a much smaller campus. Rumor has it than Don Bosco's success on the gridiron parallelled that of Southern Cal's for similar reasons. Suppposedly Carroll and Tressel studied DBP recruiting methods but I suspect that was just Crusader sour grape juice. DBP has had incredible recruiting prowess over the past decade or so and owned BC on the gridiron.

Allegedly.
 

BeauBenken

Shut up, Richard
Staff member
Messages
16,041
Reaction score
5,491
OMM, I thought you just meant for the night! Not for good. :(
 
Top